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RE: OT: 30 years since the Argentines attacked the Falklands

 
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RE: OT: 30 years since the Argentines attacked the Fal... - 4/3/2012 5:17:57 PM   
Nikademus


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and don't mess with Ronnie. Ronnie rocked!

(in reply to Nikademus)
Post #: 31
RE: OT: 30 years since the Argentines attacked the Fal... - 4/3/2012 5:24:22 PM   
treespider


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From: Edgewater, MD
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quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

That debt was almost completey wiped out by the time Clinton took office. In a time of a boom economy and we did have the resilience to bounce back. It's the seemingly engrained habit of profligate spending coupled with a an economy in the toilet that appears to be our current bane.



Not to quibble...but I think you mean deficit as opposed to debt...there is a difference.

_____________________________

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(in reply to HansBolter)
Post #: 32
RE: OT: 30 years since the Argentines attacked the Fal... - 4/3/2012 5:38:10 PM   
Gunner98


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jmalter

hi Gunner98,

which is to say, that if Argentina had delayed its descent on Las Malvinas by 6 or 8 weeks, Britain would've lacked the assets needed to re-take the Falklands, though they'd still have been able to use their SSNs to scourge the Argentinian Navy. HMS Conquerer sank the Belgrano, but refrained from attacking her escorts.

i'd imagine that some similar calculus exists to this day - Argentina could descend on the Falklands again, at the price of losing its navy.



Hi jmalter

Agree, although the fundamental difference is that there is an existing Air-Head which is well protected. Putting a large (6K+) well equipped and very capable (not to mentioned experienced!) Brigade down there is a very short time span, first elements in 24 hrs (and that includes the 19 hrs flying time), Bn in 72 and the whole thing in a week, evens the odds a bit. Add a couple dozen Tornadoes or Typhoons and you give the Argies a problem. The Brits will still need to get ships down there but not as urgently and they will be working with an unsinkable carrier which can operate C-17s and 747s. It would be a shoestring again but a different conflict altogether.

B

(in reply to jmalter)
Post #: 33
RE: OT: 30 years since the Argentines attacked the Fal... - 4/3/2012 5:47:23 PM   
witpqs

 

Posts: 14610
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
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quote:

ORIGINAL: treespider

quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

That debt was almost completey wiped out by the time Clinton took office. In a time of a boom economy and we did have the resilience to bounce back. It's the seemingly engrained habit of profligate spending coupled with a an economy in the toilet that appears to be our current bane.



Not to quibble...but I think you mean deficit as opposed to debt...there is a difference.


Quite so, the debt was basically not touched.

And the biggest issue is not deficits or debt, important though they are. Milton Freedman very clearly explained that the real level of taxation is government spending. While through some of the 90s the deficit (aka debt growth) was stopped, politicians were giddy about having the 'peace dividend' to spend. Now we have progressed even further to a situation where a spending increase is called a spending reduction as long as it is less than some proposed spending increase.

(in reply to treespider)
Post #: 34
RE: OT: 30 years since the Argentines attacked the Fal... - 4/3/2012 5:59:10 PM   
AW1Steve


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

It's amusing to me that the US was afraid the Soviets might enter the conflict on the side of Argentina. Why in seventeen steaming Hells would they do that?



Because the Soviets ALWAYS tried to intervene. It was very difficult for them to pass up an opportunity to stick it in their enemies eye. But I don't belive the USA every felt the Soviets would DIRECTLY intervene. But suddenly the Argentines would receive "gifts of friendship" (A couple of hundred MIGs, a few subs and warships, a gazillion AK-47's and most dangerous of all, Intelligence).

Why else would the Soviets support everybody from the Angolans,the Somali's, and the IRA? Or any other group of "Freedom fighters"? And why else would the USA support evey South or Central American dictator that declared himself "Anti-communist"?

In "Proxy warfare" , you take on the cause of any and all proxies. They are cheap, deniable and annoying to your opponents. It's just an updated version of "The Great Game". A million "little wars" instead of one big honking war. One that the puppet-masters might get hurt in.

_____________________________

"Geezerhood is a state of mind, attained by being largely out of yours". AW1Steve

"Quit whining and play the game. Or go home". My 7th grade baseball coach. It applies well to WITP AE players.

(in reply to Terminus)
Post #: 35
RE: OT: 30 years since the Argentines attacked the Fal... - 4/3/2012 6:04:35 PM   
AW1Steve


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vettim89


quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

It's amusing to me that the US was afraid the Soviets might enter the conflict on the side of Argentina. Why in seventeen steaming Hells would they do that?



Don't forget who was President at the time or, more importantly, who was SoS - Al "I'm in charge now" Haig. The US Policy was entirely screwed up. Haig tried to channel his inner Kissinger and avoid the war and make nice to the rest of the Americas. Having expended his political capitaol for no gain, Haig had to then find a reason to not openly support an important Ally. Hence the USSR will join in on Argentina's side if the US intervenes.

That by the way completely ignores the Monroe Doctrine which in its purist sense said the US should have instead fought along side the Argentines. In a 20th Century sense, Monroe's edict basically meat the only people allowed to bully the South Americans is the USA.

Conversely, if the US had taken a pro-UK stance from the get go, the Argentines may have folded. After all the USN could have put two or three CVBG with AWACS and F-14s off Port Stanley along with a half dozen attack boats. They then could have put a full Marine Division ashore in quick order with CAS. If the US had pushed harder for Thatcher, a lot of lives may have been saved. The price would have been loss of stature with the South Americans which would not have been that much because they all hate the Argentines anyway



I concur. I recall the concern of those of us in US military service. Which of our allies would we fight? We had trained with both , and many of us had friends on both sides. Technically , Argentina could not claim the Monroe doctrine, as they were the agressors in this fight. And they would claim that this was a continuation of the conlict since the 1830's! And the UK couldn't invoke NATO as it was outside the area of NATO's purview. (Pre-Ahfganistan).



_____________________________

"Geezerhood is a state of mind, attained by being largely out of yours". AW1Steve

"Quit whining and play the game. Or go home". My 7th grade baseball coach. It applies well to WITP AE players.

(in reply to vettim89)
Post #: 36
RE: OT: 30 years since the Argentines attacked the Fal... - 4/3/2012 6:06:22 PM   
AW1Steve


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gunner98

Was down there a couple of years back. I think the Brits are a bit better prepared for things now but sustaining another campaign down there would be the trick. There is a new base which is designed to form the front end of an air-bridge and I am sure that there would be a very powerful land and air force there within 72 hours, but the RN has undergone some big cuts lately.

B



Still , a long runway goes a long way toward improving the defense. I'd bet there is at least one SSN in the area too.

_____________________________

"Geezerhood is a state of mind, attained by being largely out of yours". AW1Steve

"Quit whining and play the game. Or go home". My 7th grade baseball coach. It applies well to WITP AE players.

(in reply to Gunner98)
Post #: 37
RE: OT: 30 years since the Argentines attacked the Fal... - 4/3/2012 6:10:30 PM   
AW1Steve


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus


quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter


quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

It's amusing to me that the US was afraid the Soviets might enter the conflict on the side of Argentina. Why in seventeen steaming Hells would they do that?



As much as I agree with the others who have posted below about the immediate causes being related to the failure in diplomacy, the underlying cause had a lot to do with us seeing ghosts of Soviet hegemoney behind every bush.

The 80's were an incredible time of overblown assumptions regarding Soviet capabilities. Our military industrial complex had a vested interest in maintaining the illusion of Soviet capabilities way beyond reality. I recall that the Defense Department used to publish a yearly assessment of Soviet capabilities in the form of a slick magazine chock full of photos of the lateset Soviet equipment. That it was all a house of cards and the various client conflicts through the era proved beyond the shadow of a doubt that the Soviet weaponry was, for the most part, a pale shadow of the American weaponry it copycatted was glossed over time and time again.

The competition between the two "systems" of government finally came to a head when Ronnie threw the cards on the table and challenged them to the old contest of "guns or butter". Which do you choose to produce, guns or butter? We proved that we had a resilient enough economy to produce both, even though it sent us into a level of debt that the progressive, pacifist non-militarists claimed we would never recover from, we succeeded in building both. The Soviets inability to afford both left them choosing guns over butter which produced the internal strife that eventually led to thier collapse. Ronnie Reagan, one of the greatest presidents in American history, won the Cold War hands down.


FYI, I was there in the 80s, so I know that. It's still insane that the Soviets would intervene.

And don't get me started on Reagan.


Here is the deal....You don't get started on him, I don't get started against you. No escalation. No "Gobal nuclear thread war". OBTW , I was there then too. So let's play nice and have nice little detente.

_____________________________

"Geezerhood is a state of mind, attained by being largely out of yours". AW1Steve

"Quit whining and play the game. Or go home". My 7th grade baseball coach. It applies well to WITP AE players.

(in reply to Terminus)
Post #: 38
RE: OT: 30 years since the Argentines attacked the Fal... - 4/3/2012 6:18:52 PM   
AW1Steve


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quote:

ORIGINAL: treespider


quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter


We proved that we had a resilient enough economy to produce both, even though it sent us into a level of debt that the progressive, pacifist non-militarists claimed we would never recover from, we succeeded in building both. The Soviets inability to afford both left them choosing guns over butter which produced the internal strife that eventually led to thier collapse. Ronnie Reagan, one of the greatest presidents in American history, won the Cold War hands down.



So now 30 years later the debt is still there and growing. Perhaps Ronnie did beat the Soviets, but in the end perhaps the mindset that was introduced on the conservative side of the house of never ending defense spending will end up failing us in the end...but you know the old maxim never discuss politics among friends.

As the gasoline gets thrown on the campfire...


Different debt. That was paid off. We had a surplus and "The peace dividend" between then and now. When people no longer need to buy guns, they find all kinds of amazing things to spend money on. For some weird reason saving never comes to mind. I call it "The trailer trash family wins the lottery syndrome". They purchase every imaginable do-dah and peice of junk . But don't pay the bills, or the mortgage , or save.


Friends CAN discuss politics, but only if their freindship is more important than making points. Fortunately WE ARE all friends here, and the occassional gentle reminder will keep us on track.

But rather than the politics of the issues, don't we find the strategic issues more interesting. While we know that the RN is suffering , has anybody looked at a "Jane's" or "Combat Ship's" especially the Argentine Navy? I don't think either side is in very good shape to start something.



_____________________________

"Geezerhood is a state of mind, attained by being largely out of yours". AW1Steve

"Quit whining and play the game. Or go home". My 7th grade baseball coach. It applies well to WITP AE players.

(in reply to treespider)
Post #: 39
RE: OT: 30 years since the Argentines attacked the Fal... - 4/3/2012 6:59:15 PM   
witpqs

 

Posts: 14610
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

Different debt. That was paid off.


Nah - sorry to say they never paid off the debt.









< Message edited by witpqs -- 4/3/2012 7:01:28 PM >

(in reply to AW1Steve)
Post #: 40
RE: OT: 30 years since the Argentines attacked the Fal... - 4/3/2012 7:51:29 PM   
AW1Steve


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quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

Different debt. That was paid off.


Nah - sorry to say they never paid off the debt.










No disrespect...but who is "JP-Graph"? And the web site you took that off DOES have an agenda.

_____________________________

"Geezerhood is a state of mind, attained by being largely out of yours". AW1Steve

"Quit whining and play the game. Or go home". My 7th grade baseball coach. It applies well to WITP AE players.

(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 41
RE: OT: 30 years since the Argentines attacked the Fal... - 4/3/2012 8:18:02 PM   
HansBolter


Posts: 3531
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: St. Petersburg, Florida, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

lol.....more like napalm

Yes...the Soviets bankrupted themselves buying guns

we've bankrupted ourselves buying plasma TV's.....and China is laughing all the way to the bank....that is till they realized that if we collapse economically so do they. Its a whole new ballgame now in the Global Economy.

Maybe FireFly the series got it right after all and we'll all be swearing in Chinese out in space while conversing in English.

Then again i can be haughty.....i just did the unthinkable for an American.....I paid off all my debt this month. (not counting my share of of the National debt of course )



Congrats man!!! I envy you. I only found work 9 months ago after 2.5 years of unemployment as the demand for my profession (architect) all but evaporated 3.5 years ago. I did manage not to lose my house yet and have only another 12 mortgage payments left (wheh).

_____________________________

Hans


(in reply to Nikademus)
Post #: 42
RE: OT: 30 years since the Argentines attacked the Fal... - 4/3/2012 8:19:07 PM   
HansBolter


Posts: 3531
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: St. Petersburg, Florida, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: treespider


quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

That debt was almost completey wiped out by the time Clinton took office. In a time of a boom economy and we did have the resilience to bounce back. It's the seemingly engrained habit of profligate spending coupled with a an economy in the toilet that appears to be our current bane.



Not to quibble...but I think you mean deficit as opposed to debt...there is a difference.


yea, and I didn't mean to imply the entire deficit, only the portion attributable to the military build up.

_____________________________

Hans


(in reply to treespider)
Post #: 43
RE: OT: 30 years since the Argentines attacked the Fal... - 4/3/2012 9:17:06 PM   
Historiker


Posts: 4738
Joined: 7/4/2007
From: Deutschland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve


quote:

ORIGINAL: treespider


quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter


We proved that we had a resilient enough economy to produce both, even though it sent us into a level of debt that the progressive, pacifist non-militarists claimed we would never recover from, we succeeded in building both. The Soviets inability to afford both left them choosing guns over butter which produced the internal strife that eventually led to thier collapse. Ronnie Reagan, one of the greatest presidents in American history, won the Cold War hands down.



So now 30 years later the debt is still there and growing. Perhaps Ronnie did beat the Soviets, but in the end perhaps the mindset that was introduced on the conservative side of the house of never ending defense spending will end up failing us in the end...but you know the old maxim never discuss politics among friends.

As the gasoline gets thrown on the campfire...


Different debt. That was paid off. We had a surplus and "The peace dividend" between then and now. When people no longer need to buy guns, they find all kinds of amazing things to spend money on. For some weird reason saving never comes to mind. I call it "The trailer trash family wins the lottery syndrome". They purchase every imaginable do-dah and peice of junk . But don't pay the bills, or the mortgage , or save.


Friends CAN discuss politics, but only if their freindship is more important than making points. Fortunately WE ARE all friends here, and the occassional gentle reminder will keep us on track.

But rather than the politics of the issues, don't we find the strategic issues more interesting. While we know that the RN is suffering , has anybody looked at a "Jane's" or "Combat Ship's" especially the Argentine Navy? I don't think either side is in very good shape to start something.



Argentina has no chance in taking it back.

_____________________________

Without any doubt: I am the spawn of evil - and the Bavarian Beer Monster (BBM)!

There's only one bad word and that's taxes. If any other word is good enough for sailors; it's good enough for you. - Ron Swanson

(in reply to AW1Steve)
Post #: 44
RE: OT: 30 years since the Argentines attacked the Fal... - 4/3/2012 10:14:04 PM   
witpqs

 

Posts: 14610
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve


quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

Different debt. That was paid off.


Nah - sorry to say they never paid off the debt.










No disrespect...but who is "JP-Graph"? And the web site you took that off DOES have an agenda.


No disrespect taken at being skeptical. I don't know who is "jpgraph" but the debt figures are easy enough to look up in a number of places. Below is a set of figures from a US Treasury web site. Would you please mention where you got the information that the debt was actually paid off in the 1990s?

See this page and click on the 5 links to the 5 time periods (2000 - 2010; 1950 - 1999; 1900 - 1949; 1850 - 1899; 1791 - 1849):

http://www.treasurydirect.gov/govt/reports/pd/histdebt/histdebt.htm

Here is the text cut and pasted from those pages (might be messy - can't help that!):


quote:

Date Dollar Amount
09/30/2010 13,561,623,030,891.79
09/30/2009 11,909,829,003,511.75
09/30/2008 10,024,724,896,912.49
09/30/2007 9,007,653,372,262.48
09/30/2006 8,506,973,899,215.23
09/30/2005 7,932,709,661,723.50
09/30/2004 7,379,052,696,330.32
09/30/2003 6,783,231,062,743.62
09/30/2002 6,228,235,965,597.16
09/30/2001 5,807,463,412,200.06
09/30/2000 5,674,178,209,886.86
Date Dollar Amount
09/30/1999 5,656,270,901,615.43
09/30/1998 5,526,193,008,897.62
09/30/1997 5,413,146,011,397.34
09/30/1996 5,224,810,939,135.73
09/29/1995 4,973,982,900,709.39
09/30/1994 4,692,749,910,013.32
09/30/1993 4,411,488,883,139.38
09/30/1992 4,064,620,655,521.66
09/30/1991 3,665,303,351,697.03
09/28/1990 3,233,313,451,777.25
09/29/1989 2,857,430,960,187.32
09/30/1988 2,602,337,712,041.16
09/30/1987 2,350,276,890,953.00
09/30/1986 2,125,302,616,658.42
09/30/1985 * 1,823,103,000,000.00
09/30/1984 * 1,572,266,000,000.00
09/30/1983 * 1,377,210,000,000.00
09/30/1982 * 1,142,034,000,000.00
09/30/1981 * 997,855,000,000.00
09/30/1980 * 907,701,000,000.00
09/30/1979 * 826,519,000,000.00
09/30/1978 * 771,544,000,000.00
09/30/1977 * 698,840,000,000.00
06/30/1976 * 620,433,000,000.00
06/30/1975 * 533,189,000,000.00
06/30/1974 475,059,815,731.55
06/30/1973 458,141,605,312.09
06/30/1972 427,260,460,940.50
06/30/1971 398,129,744,455.54
06/30/1970 370,918,706,949.93
06/30/1969 353,720,253,841.41
06/30/1968 347,578,406,425.88
06/30/1967 326,220,937,794.54
06/30/1966 319,907,087,795.48
06/30/1965 317,273,898,983.64
06/30/1964 311,712,899,257.30
06/30/1963 305,859,632,996.41
06/30/1962 298,200,822,720.87
06/30/1961 288,970,938,610.05
06/30/1960 286,330,760,848.37
06/30/1959 284,705,907,078.22
06/30/1958 276,343,217,745.81
06/30/1957 270,527,171,896.43
06/30/1956 272,750,813,649.32
06/30/1955 274,374,222,802.62
06/30/1954 271,259,599,108.46
06/30/1953 266,071,061,638.57
06/30/1952 259,105,178,785.43
06/29/1951 255,221,976,814.93
06/30/1950 257,357,352,351.04
Date Dollar Amount
06/30/1949 252,770,359,860.33
06/30/1948 252,292,246,512.99
06/30/1947 258,286,383,108.67
06/28/1946 269,422,099,173.26
06/30/1945 258,682,187,409.93
06/30/1944 201,003,387,221.13
06/30/1943 136,696,090,329.90
06/30/1942 72,422,445,116.22
06/30/1941 48,961,443,535.71
06/29/1940 42,967,531,037.68
06/30/1939 40,439,532,411.11
06/30/1938 37,164,740,315.45
06/30/1937 36,424,613,732.29
06/30/1936 33,778,543,493.73
06/29/1935 28,700,892,624.53
06/30/1934 27,053,141,414.48
06/30/1933 22,538,672,560.15
06/30/1932 19,487,002,444.13
06/30/1931 16,801,281,491.71
06/30/1930 16,185,309,831.43
06/29/1929 16,931,088,484.10
06/30/1928 17,604,293,201.43
06/30/1927 18,511,906,931.85
06/30/1926 19,643,216,315.19
06/30/1925 20,516,193,887.90
06/30/1924 21,250,812,989.49
06/30/1923 22,349,707,365.36
06/30/1922 22,963,381,708.31
06/30/1921 23,977,450,552.54
07/01/1920 25,952,456,406.16
07/01/1919 27,390,970,113.12
07/01/1918 14,592,161,414.00
07/01/1917 5,717,770,279.52
07/01/1916 3,609,244,262.16
07/01/1915 3,058,136,873.16
07/01/1914 2,912,499,269.16
07/01/1913 2,916,204,913.66
07/01/1912 2,868,373,874.16
07/01/1911 2,765,600,606.69
07/01/1910 2,652,665,838.04
07/01/1909 2,639,546,241.04
07/01/1908 2,626,806,271.54
07/01/1907 2,457,188,061.54
07/01/1906 2,337,161,839.04
07/01/1905 2,274,615,063.84
07/01/1904 2,264,003,585.14
07/01/1903 2,202,464,781.89
07/01/1902 2,158,610,445.89
07/01/1901 2,143,326,933.89
07/01/1900 2,136,961,091.67
Date Dollar Amount
07/01/1899 1,991,927,306.92
07/01/1898 1,796,531,995.90
07/01/1897 1,817,672,665.90
07/01/1896 1,769,840,323.40
07/01/1895 1,676,120,983.25
07/01/1894 1,632,253,636.68
07/01/1893 1,545,985,686.13
07/01/1892 1,588,464,144.63
07/01/1891 1,545,996,591.61
07/01/1890 1,552,140,204.73
07/01/1889 1,619,052,922.23
07/01/1888 1,692,858,984.58
07/01/1887 1,657,602,592.63
07/01/1886 1,775,063,013.78
07/01/1885 1,863,964,873.14
07/01/1884 1,830,528,923.57
07/01/1883 1,884,171,728.07
07/01/1882 1,918,312,994.03
07/01/1881 2,069,013,569.58
07/01/1880 2,120,415,370.63
07/01/1879 2,349,567,482.04
07/01/1878 2,256,205,892.53
07/01/1877 2,205,301,392.10
07/01/1876 2,180,395,067.15
07/01/1875 2,232,284,531.95
07/01/1874 2,251,690,468.43
07/01/1873 2,234,482,993.20
07/01/1872 2,253,251,328.78
07/01/1871 2,353,211,332.32
07/01/1870 2,480,672,427.81
07/01/1869 2,588,452,213.94
07/01/1868 2,611,687,851.19
07/01/1867 2,678,126,103.87
07/01/1866 2,773,236,173.69
07/01/1865 2,680,647,869.74
07/01/1864 1,815,784,370.57
07/01/1863 1,119,772,138.63
07/01/1862 524,176,412.13
07/01/1861 90,580,873.72
07/01/1860 64,842,287.88
07/01/1859 58,496,837.88
07/01/1858 44,911,881.03
07/01/1857 28,699,831.85
07/01/1856 31,972,537.90
07/01/1855 35,586,956.56
07/01/1854 42,242,222.42
07/01/1853 59,803,117.70
07/01/1852 66,199,341.71
07/01/1851 68,304,796.02
07/01/1850 63,452,773.55
Date Dollar Amount
07/01/1849 63,061,858.69
07/01/1848 47,044,862.23
07/01/1847 38,826,534.77
07/01/1846 15,550,202.97
07/01/1845 15,925,303.01
07/01/1844 23,461,652.50
07/01/1843 32,742,922.00
01/01/1843 20,201,226.27
01/01/1842 13,594,480.73
01/01/1841 5,250,875.54
01/01/1840 3,573,343.82
01/01/1839 10,434,221.14
01/01/1838 3,308,124.07
01/01/1837 336,957.83
01/01/1836 37,513.05
01/01/1835 33,733.05
01/01/1834 4,760,082.08
01/01/1833 7,001,698.83
01/01/1832 24,322,235.18
01/01/1831 39,123,191.68
01/01/1830 48,565,406.50
01/01/1829 58,421,413.67
01/01/1828 67,475,043.87
01/01/1827 73,987,357.20
01/01/1826 81,054,059.99
01/01/1825 83,788,432.71
01/01/1824 90,269,777.77
01/01/1823 90,875,877.28
01/01/1822 93,546,676.98
01/01/1821 89,987,427.66
01/01/1820 91,015,566.15
01/01/1819 95,529,648.28
01/01/1818 103,466,633.83
01/01/1817 123,491,965.16
01/01/1816 127,334,933.74
01/01/1815 99,833,660.15
01/01/1814 81,487,846.24
01/01/1813 55,962,827.57
01/01/1812 45,209,737.90
01/01/1811 48,005,587.76
01/01/1810 53,173,217.52
01/01/1809 57,023,192.09
01/01/1808 65,196,317.97
01/01/1807 69,218,398.64
01/01/1806 75,723,270.66
01/01/1805 82,312,150.50
01/01/1804 86,427,120.88
01/01/1803 77,054,686.40
01/01/1802 80,712,632.25
01/01/1801 83,038,050.80
01/01/1800 82,976,294.35
01/01/1799 78,408,669.77
01/01/1798 79,228,529.12
01/01/1797 82,064,479.33
01/01/1796 83,762,172.07
01/01/1795 80,747,587.39
01/01/1794 78,427,404.77
01/01/1793 80,358,634.04
01/01/1792 77,227,924.66
01/01/1791 75,463,476.52

(in reply to AW1Steve)
Post #: 45
RE: OT: 30 years since the Argentines attacked the Fal... - 4/3/2012 10:32:28 PM   
Alfred

 

Posts: 3643
Joined: 9/28/2006
Status: offline
witpqs is quite correct in stating the debt was not paid off in the 1990s.

The world economic cannot afford a USA which has no net debt. In all modern financial systems there must be freely traded government debt insturments. Without them it is impossible to properly price capital. In the case of the USA, the lack of ready access to $USD (which remains the only real reserve currency for the foreseeable future) the problems would be considerably magnified as it would completely disrupt world trade which is overwhelmingly still denominated in $USD.

In theory the USA could eventually achieve a nominal debt only but the transition to that would be measured in decades. No two term American presidency could ever achieve that, unless it ran in each of the 8 years, budget surpluses equivalent to approximately 10-12% of national GDP. That aint gonna happen folks for sound political, social and economic reasons.

Alfred

(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 46
RE: OT: 30 years since the Argentines attacked the Fal... - 4/3/2012 10:35:49 PM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 17953
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: Twin Cities, MN
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: sprior


quote:

ORIGINAL: jmalter

quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter
Every 5 years or so I dust off Max Hastings' book on the subject and give it a reread.

i rather liked that book, IIRC it was the 1st one i'd read by Hastings.

a coupla' others, memoirs by RN officers:
"Amphibious Assault Falklands" by Michael Clapp & Ewen Southby-Tailyour &
"One Hundred Days" by Sandy Woodward w/ Patrick Robinson.

i've not read anything by British Army guys, nor nothing Argentinian-sourced, neither.

Atlantic magazine has a photo collection, i've never seen the majority of these before:
http://www.theatlantic.com/infocus/2012/03/30-years-since-the-falklands-war/100272/




Try these:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Commando-Brigade-Falklands-No-Picnic/dp/1844158799/ref=sr_1_36?ie=UTF8&qid=1333451916&sr=8-36

http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Royal-Navy-Falklands-War/dp/0850520592/ref=sr_1_37?ie=UTF8&qid=1333451951&sr=8-37

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Argentine-Fight-Falklands-Martin-Middlebrook/dp/1844158888/ref=sr_1_45?ie=UTF8&qid=1333451973&sr=8-45

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Wings-Malvinas-Argentine-Over-Falklands/dp/1902109228/ref=sr_1_72?ie=UTF8&qid=1333452065&sr=8-72


Simon,

For an interested, but not overly-interested, party in the Falklands war, what single book would you recommend for a good overview of the entire conflict? Can't say that I'd read 7 books on the subject, but a recommendation for a good singular volume would be appreciated.

_____________________________


(in reply to sprior)
Post #: 47
RE: OT: 30 years since the Argentines attacked the Fal... - 4/3/2012 10:38:20 PM   
Bullwinkle58


Posts: 8391
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

witpqs is quite correct in stating the debt was not paid off in the 1990s.

The world economic cannot afford a USA which has no net debt. In all modern financial systems there must be freely traded government debt insturments. Without them it is impossible to properly price capital. In the case of the USA, the lack of ready access to $USD (which remains the only real reserve currency for the foreseeable future) the problems would be considerably magnified as it would completely disrupt world trade which is overwhelmingly still denominated in $USD.

In theory the USA could eventually achieve a nominal debt only but the transition to that would be measured in decades. No two term American presidency could ever achieve that, unless it ran in each of the 8 years, budget surpluses equivalent to approximately 10-12% of national GDP. That aint gonna happen folks for sound political, social and economic reasons.

Alfred


Alfred is quite correct. The proper concern or issue is the debt-to-GDP ratios and ancillary tax burdens needed to service the debt. At high levels interest cashflow also becomes a budgetary issue, and the US is in that range now.

As for any contention that events of the 1990s "paid off" the Reagan defense-related debt--no. Tax revenue is fungible. One cannot say "this dollar of debt repayment goes to that tank and NOT that Medicare reimbursement."

< Message edited by Bullwinkle58 -- 4/3/2012 10:39:09 PM >


_____________________________

The Moose

(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 48
RE: OT: 30 years since the Argentines attacked the Fal... - 4/3/2012 11:29:32 PM   
Terminus


Posts: 41377
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve


quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

It's amusing to me that the US was afraid the Soviets might enter the conflict on the side of Argentina. Why in seventeen steaming Hells would they do that?



Because the Soviets ALWAYS tried to intervene. It was very difficult for them to pass up an opportunity to stick it in their enemies eye. But I don't belive the USA every felt the Soviets would DIRECTLY intervene. But suddenly the Argentines would receive "gifts of friendship" (A couple of hundred MIGs, a few subs and warships, a gazillion AK-47's and most dangerous of all, Intelligence).

Why else would the Soviets support everybody from the Angolans,the Somali's, and the IRA? Or any other group of "Freedom fighters"? And why else would the USA support evey South or Central American dictator that declared himself "Anti-communist"?

In "Proxy warfare" , you take on the cause of any and all proxies. They are cheap, deniable and annoying to your opponents. It's just an updated version of "The Great Game". A million "little wars" instead of one big honking war. One that the puppet-masters might get hurt in.


There's different levels of intervention. Sounds to me like the scare was a Soviet fleet showing up off the Islands, which was NUTS. That was the only way they'd be able to interfere directly, and it was so far out of the Soviet sphere. The closest proxies were in Central America.

All those weapons that you think they'd deliver? Even if we assume Soviet "advisors" flying those planes, the infrastructure to support them wouldn't be in place until loooooooooooong after the British took the islands back, and then what?

And where would those MiGs stage from? Soviet fighter designs back then didn't allow for much A2A refueling, you know?

This whole thing was an intel scare, like a lot of others in those days, precisely because the West didn't know how crap the Soviet system and military was.


< Message edited by Terminus -- 4/3/2012 11:33:50 PM >


_____________________________

We are all dreams of the Giant Space Butterfly.

(in reply to AW1Steve)
Post #: 49
RE: OT: 30 years since the Argentines attacked the Fal... - 4/4/2012 12:00:01 AM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25302
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

lol.....more like napalm

Yes...the Soviets bankrupted themselves buying guns

we've bankrupted ourselves buying plasma TV's.....and China is laughing all the way to the bank....that is till they realized that if we collapse economically so do they. Its a whole new ballgame now in the Global Economy.

Maybe FireFly the series got it right after all and we'll all be swearing in Chinese out in space while conversing in English.

Then again i can be haughty.....i just did the unthinkable for an American.....I paid off all my debt this month. (not counting my share of of the National debt of course )



Congrats man!!! I envy you. I only found work 9 months ago after 2.5 years of unemployment as the demand for my profession (architect) all but evaporated 3.5 years ago. I did manage not to lose my house yet and have only another 12 mortgage payments left (wheh).


Thx.....thats rough (2.5 years) beats my 3 months and then 3 months more as a part timer only. At least your house is nearly paid off. Hopefully the economy will continue to slowly improve


(in reply to HansBolter)
Post #: 50
RE: OT: 30 years since the Argentines attacked the Fal... - 4/4/2012 12:01:59 AM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25302
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus
There's different levels of intervention. Sounds to me like the scare was a Soviet fleet showing up off the Islands, which was NUTS. That was the only way they'd be able to interfere directly, and it was so far out of the Soviet sphere. The closest proxies were in Central America.

All those weapons that you think they'd deliver? Even if we assume Soviet "advisors" flying those planes, the infrastructure to support them wouldn't be in place until loooooooooooong after the British took the islands back, and then what?

And where would those MiGs stage from? Soviet fighter designs back then didn't allow for much A2A refueling, you know?

This whole thing was an intel scare, like a lot of others in those days, precisely because the West didn't know how crap the Soviet system and military was.



Don't recall the Soviets having any particular interest in the matter.....of course any situation that concerned a NATO ally and the UN had to get the US thinking "What will the Russians do?"

Its easy to forget the sheer level of paranoia and fear back in the day.

(in reply to Terminus)
Post #: 51
RE: OT: 30 years since the Argentines attacked the Fal... - 4/4/2012 12:11:27 AM   
Terminus


Posts: 41377
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline
Plenty of that around these days.

_____________________________

We are all dreams of the Giant Space Butterfly.

(in reply to Nikademus)
Post #: 52
RE: OT: 30 years since the Argentines attacked the Fal... - 4/4/2012 12:16:55 AM   
AW1Steve


Posts: 12851
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: ME-FL-DC-GM-WA-NE-IL ?
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve


quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

It's amusing to me that the US was afraid the Soviets might enter the conflict on the side of Argentina. Why in seventeen steaming Hells would they do that?



Because the Soviets ALWAYS tried to intervene. It was very difficult for them to pass up an opportunity to stick it in their enemies eye. But I don't belive the USA every felt the Soviets would DIRECTLY intervene. But suddenly the Argentines would receive "gifts of friendship" (A couple of hundred MIGs, a few subs and warships, a gazillion AK-47's and most dangerous of all, Intelligence).

Why else would the Soviets support everybody from the Angolans,the Somali's, and the IRA? Or any other group of "Freedom fighters"? And why else would the USA support evey South or Central American dictator that declared himself "Anti-communist"?

In "Proxy warfare" , you take on the cause of any and all proxies. They are cheap, deniable and annoying to your opponents. It's just an updated version of "The Great Game". A million "little wars" instead of one big honking war. One that the puppet-masters might get hurt in.


There's different levels of intervention. Sounds to me like the scare was a Soviet fleet showing up off the Islands, which was NUTS. That was the only way they'd be able to interfere directly, and it was so far out of the Soviet sphere. The closest proxies were in Central America.

All those weapons that you think they'd deliver? Even if we assume Soviet "advisors" flying those planes, the infrastructure to support them wouldn't be in place until loooooooooooong after the British took the islands back, and then what?

And where would those MiGs stage from? Soviet fighter designs back then didn't allow for much A2A refueling, you know?

This whole thing was an intel scare, like a lot of others in those days, precisely because the West didn't know how crap the Soviet system and military was.



They did some amazing things with that "crap". How difficult is it to ship weapons to Argentia? I didn't hear that the Brit's "quarantined" it. Most later migs wouldn't have any problem stageing from the mainland. A-4 Skyhawks did it, and they had very short range. So did the "Dagger" (Israelis clones of Mirage3's). A Mig 25 certainly would not have a range proiblem.

Don't underestimate Argentine pilots. They were and are very good.


_____________________________

"Geezerhood is a state of mind, attained by being largely out of yours". AW1Steve

"Quit whining and play the game. Or go home". My 7th grade baseball coach. It applies well to WITP AE players.

(in reply to Terminus)
Post #: 53
RE: OT: 30 years since the Argentines attacked the Fal... - 4/4/2012 12:17:43 AM   
AW1Steve


Posts: 12851
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: ME-FL-DC-GM-WA-NE-IL ?
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus


quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus
There's different levels of intervention. Sounds to me like the scare was a Soviet fleet showing up off the Islands, which was NUTS. That was the only way they'd be able to interfere directly, and it was so far out of the Soviet sphere. The closest proxies were in Central America.

All those weapons that you think they'd deliver? Even if we assume Soviet "advisors" flying those planes, the infrastructure to support them wouldn't be in place until loooooooooooong after the British took the islands back, and then what?

And where would those MiGs stage from? Soviet fighter designs back then didn't allow for much A2A refueling, you know?

This whole thing was an intel scare, like a lot of others in those days, precisely because the West didn't know how crap the Soviet system and military was.



Don't recall the Soviets having any particular interest in the matter.....of course any situation that concerned a NATO ally and the UN had to get the US thinking "What will the Russians do?"

Its easy to forget the sheer level of paranoia and fear back in the day.



Maybe for you. I sure as hell don't have any problem remebering it.

_____________________________

"Geezerhood is a state of mind, attained by being largely out of yours". AW1Steve

"Quit whining and play the game. Or go home". My 7th grade baseball coach. It applies well to WITP AE players.

(in reply to Nikademus)
Post #: 54
RE: OT: 30 years since the Argentines attacked the Fal... - 4/4/2012 12:35:45 AM   
treespider


Posts: 9786
Joined: 1/30/2005
From: Edgewater, MD
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy



Simon,

For an interested, but not overly-interested, party in the Falklands war, what single book would you recommend for a good overview of the entire conflict? Can't say that I'd read 7 books on the subject, but a recommendation for a good singular volume would be appreciated.


I'll second that...and add has anyone ever developed a "sim" or game of the conflict?

_____________________________

Here's a link to:
Treespider's Grand Campaign of DBB

"It is not the critic who counts, .... The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena..." T. Roosevelt, Paris, 1910

(in reply to Chickenboy)
Post #: 55
RE: OT: 30 years since the Argentines attacked the Fal... - 4/4/2012 12:54:30 AM   
Terminus


Posts: 41377
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline
There's a boardgame called "Where There Is discord".


_____________________________

We are all dreams of the Giant Space Butterfly.

(in reply to treespider)
Post #: 56
RE: OT: 30 years since the Argentines attacked the Fal... - 4/4/2012 12:55:43 AM   
Terminus


Posts: 41377
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve


quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve


quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

It's amusing to me that the US was afraid the Soviets might enter the conflict on the side of Argentina. Why in seventeen steaming Hells would they do that?



Because the Soviets ALWAYS tried to intervene. It was very difficult for them to pass up an opportunity to stick it in their enemies eye. But I don't belive the USA every felt the Soviets would DIRECTLY intervene. But suddenly the Argentines would receive "gifts of friendship" (A couple of hundred MIGs, a few subs and warships, a gazillion AK-47's and most dangerous of all, Intelligence).

Why else would the Soviets support everybody from the Angolans,the Somali's, and the IRA? Or any other group of "Freedom fighters"? And why else would the USA support evey South or Central American dictator that declared himself "Anti-communist"?

In "Proxy warfare" , you take on the cause of any and all proxies. They are cheap, deniable and annoying to your opponents. It's just an updated version of "The Great Game". A million "little wars" instead of one big honking war. One that the puppet-masters might get hurt in.


There's different levels of intervention. Sounds to me like the scare was a Soviet fleet showing up off the Islands, which was NUTS. That was the only way they'd be able to interfere directly, and it was so far out of the Soviet sphere. The closest proxies were in Central America.

All those weapons that you think they'd deliver? Even if we assume Soviet "advisors" flying those planes, the infrastructure to support them wouldn't be in place until loooooooooooong after the British took the islands back, and then what?

And where would those MiGs stage from? Soviet fighter designs back then didn't allow for much A2A refueling, you know?

This whole thing was an intel scare, like a lot of others in those days, precisely because the West didn't know how crap the Soviet system and military was.



They did some amazing things with that "crap". How difficult is it to ship weapons to Argentia? I didn't hear that the Brit's "quarantined" it. Most later migs wouldn't have any problem stageing from the mainland. A-4 Skyhawks did it, and they had very short range. So did the "Dagger" (Israelis clones of Mirage3's). A Mig 25 certainly would not have a range proiblem.

Don't underestimate Argentine pilots. They were and are very good.



The Argentinian pilots were fantastically brave, never disputed that. But the FAA were better.

_____________________________

We are all dreams of the Giant Space Butterfly.

(in reply to AW1Steve)
Post #: 57
RE: OT: 30 years since the Argentines attacked the Fal... - 4/4/2012 1:57:20 AM   
Captain Cruft


Posts: 3648
Joined: 3/17/2004
From: England
Status: offline
Shrapnel Games do a PC game covering the ground war. I don't know anything about it though.

(in reply to Terminus)
Post #: 58
RE: OT: 30 years since the Argentines attacked the Fal... - 4/4/2012 2:37:36 AM   
AW1Steve


Posts: 12851
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: ME-FL-DC-GM-WA-NE-IL ?
Status: offline
http://shrapnelgames.com Here's the link to the PC game.

_____________________________

"Geezerhood is a state of mind, attained by being largely out of yours". AW1Steve

"Quit whining and play the game. Or go home". My 7th grade baseball coach. It applies well to WITP AE players.

(in reply to Captain Cruft)
Post #: 59
RE: OT: 30 years since the Argentines attacked the Fal... - 4/4/2012 4:04:15 AM   
Cap Mandrake

 

Posts: 16557
Joined: 11/15/2002
From: Southern California
Status: offline
Once alerted, a single attack sub with wire guided torpedoes compltely neutralized a 2nd tier navy.

That is quite amazing.

The Exocet was a potential game changer too but despite the losses, it did not change the outcome.

Even more amazing is that someone on the Argie side made a calculation that the UK was going to just shrug off the intitial attack.

(in reply to Nikademus)
Post #: 60
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