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RE: First impressions

 
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RE: First impressions - 4/1/2012 9:03:00 PM   
rosseau

 

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Joined: 9/13/2009
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That's why we need a manual. I have the game but I refuse to learn it watching YouTube videos. Too old for that. The reaction phase may be WAD. It's hard to tell what's going on. I don't regret buying, but am not getting another copy until MP is proven to work.

Also, if I was the dev releasing my first game, I'd be all over this forum - weekend or not.


(in reply to JBSpook)
Post #: 31
RE: First impressions - 4/1/2012 9:31:49 PM   
rich12545

 

Posts: 1702
Joined: 10/31/2000
From: Palouse, WA
Status: offline
I assume there's still no save in the middle of a scenario?

That alone kills it for me. I really like the idea of this game but it looks like it didn't turn out well.

(in reply to rosseau)
Post #: 32
RE: First impressions - 4/1/2012 10:00:54 PM   
rosseau

 

Posts: 1084
Joined: 9/13/2009
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How's it going, Rich? Actually, the game saves the scenario automatically on exit. I complained of no manual, but feel this is well worth $20 - if you are willing to experiment and use the FB a little, etc. As you tend to be a perfectionist (that's a compliment), you may find it frustrating. But the questions are slowing being answered over at Slitherine forum. MP I am not sure about yet. Take care.

(in reply to rich12545)
Post #: 33
RE: First impressions - 4/1/2012 10:23:20 PM   
rich12545

 

Posts: 1702
Joined: 10/31/2000
From: Palouse, WA
Status: offline
Hi, things are fine. Hope with you too. The save is a huge improvement. I'm going to wait a bit and see how it goes then. April is my annual ootp (baseball) renewal and I have only so many dollars. That is simply an incredible game if you like baseball.

I was a beta tester and did so for about half an hour. The whole thing confused me. Then when I learned it didn't save that was the end. But a turn based infantry tactical game in Italy would be really cool. There are some out of course but none with these Company of Heroes type of graphics. $20 is a fair price. I'll wait and see.

(in reply to rosseau)
Post #: 34
RE: First impressions - 4/1/2012 10:37:25 PM   
nomet

 

Posts: 32
Joined: 3/29/2012
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: rosseau

That's why we need a manual. I have the game but I refuse to learn it watching YouTube videos. Too old for that. The reaction phase may be WAD. It's hard to tell what's going on. I don't regret buying, but am not getting another copy until MP is proven to work.

Also, if I was the dev releasing my first game, I'd be all over this forum - weekend or not.





im sorry but most of the team is exsusted after lots of extra houers of contract work. but i will make sure to have folks answering all your questions on monday! :)

(in reply to rosseau)
Post #: 35
RE: First impressions - 4/1/2012 11:42:04 PM   
rosseau

 

Posts: 1084
Joined: 9/13/2009
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Monday night is good

Really, there is nothing that compares to your game at this price point. IMO, it should be a good seller here as a CMBN lite. Wish you the best, and hoping for more content down the road.

(in reply to nomet)
Post #: 36
RE: First impressions - 4/2/2012 1:48:07 PM   
mbar


Posts: 465
Joined: 3/17/2010
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Look for shots and take them if you can. One game I was able to win without taking flags or moving much because I had accurate shooters.

If you want an action after you move you need to keep the track white.

Use cover at long distances otherwise if the enemy is close they can move into a firing position. Enemy rockets can hurt you bad.

Use smoke grenades to take away an enemy's line of site for a turn.

(in reply to JBSpook)
Post #: 37
RE: First impressions - 4/2/2012 2:30:44 PM   
Apfar

 

Posts: 1
Joined: 4/2/2012
Status: offline
To make sure your troops won't sprint(Moving with the track colored blue)you can press left shift to toggle the sprint function, then the track won't turn blue and the soldiers will only move as far as they can while still being able to fire.

(in reply to mbar)
Post #: 38
RE: First impressions - 4/2/2012 5:10:56 PM   
gunnergoz


Posts: 385
Joined: 5/21/2002
From: San Diego CA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: JBSpook

I don't have this game but....

Looking at the tutorial that is posted in this forum, it seems that if you save your action points you get a "reaction" to an enemy attack instead of an automatic defensive fire. With this "reaction" you can choose to return fire, move, take cover or save your points again.

Like I said I don't have the the game but it seems someone is missing something somewhere, I could be wrong.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Z6gUBs0wMCw

around the 8:11 mark.


Here's one example of my frustration with the reaction paradigm in the game:

My squad is hunkered behind a building, taking pot shots at enemy as they come into my line of sight. I'm already down to half of my men and haven't been able to get out to claim a single objective because when I do, I get hammered. Suddenly, an enemy squad appears at my flank, totally out of the blue - a nice AI tactic indeed. Except that the AI (since there is no defensive reaction fire when they first appear) fires into my flank, killing off half of my survivors with a flamethrower. The other half of my survivors kill off the enemy team in their reaction phase (none of mine had been moving so they should have had action points to do this, but far to late to prevent the enemy from annihilating half of my squad.) In the end I lose because the AI pulls this off twice, wiping me out.

Now admittedly, I like to use 8-man squads because that is historical for infantry squads. The AI throws these 2, 3 and 4 man squads at me and can hit me from various angles. That's good, one point for the designers. Except the lack of immediate reaction fire allows the AI to continuously pull off these stunts where they pop into sight, kill several of my men before I can react.

So play like the AI in small squads you say. I say, no, that is not realistic, and the game is supposed to be about WW2 realism, not about playing gamey tricks to get the objectives. So I'm left with the feeling that the game has been optimized for a style of play that I really don't care for.

It's not off my hard drive yet and I'm waiting to see what future patches brings to the table. And maybe a decent manual, written by someone who really understands the game and who can convey all these little tricks and tips coherently. And no thank you, I don't care to watch more tutorial videos.

_____________________________

"Things are getting better!
...Well, maybe not as good as they were yesterday, but much better than they will be tomorrow!"
-Old Russian saying

(in reply to JBSpook)
Post #: 39
RE: First impressions - 4/2/2012 6:09:26 PM   
nomet

 

Posts: 32
Joined: 3/29/2012
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: gunnergoz


quote:

ORIGINAL: JBSpook

I don't have this game but....

Looking at the tutorial that is posted in this forum, it seems that if you save your action points you get a "reaction" to an enemy attack instead of an automatic defensive fire. With this "reaction" you can choose to return fire, move, take cover or save your points again.

Like I said I don't have the the game but it seems someone is missing something somewhere, I could be wrong.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Z6gUBs0wMCw

around the 8:11 mark.


Here's one example of my frustration with the reaction paradigm in the game:

My squad is hunkered behind a building, taking pot shots at enemy as they come into my line of sight. I'm already down to half of my men and haven't been able to get out to claim a single objective because when I do, I get hammered. Suddenly, an enemy squad appears at my flank, totally out of the blue - a nice AI tactic indeed. Except that the AI (since there is no defensive reaction fire when they first appear) fires into my flank, killing off half of my survivors with a flamethrower. The other half of my survivors kill off the enemy team in their reaction phase (none of mine had been moving so they should have had action points to do this, but far to late to prevent the enemy from annihilating half of my squad.) In the end I lose because the AI pulls this off twice, wiping me out.

Now admittedly, I like to use 8-man squads because that is historical for infantry squads. The AI throws these 2, 3 and 4 man squads at me and can hit me from various angles. That's good, one point for the designers. Except the lack of immediate reaction fire allows the AI to continuously pull off these stunts where they pop into sight, kill several of my men before I can react.

So play like the AI in small squads you say. I say, no, that is not realistic, and the game is supposed to be about WW2 realism, not about playing gamey tricks to get the objectives. So I'm left with the feeling that the game has been optimized for a style of play that I really don't care for.

It's not off my hard drive yet and I'm waiting to see what future patches brings to the table. And maybe a decent manual, written by someone who really understands the game and who can convey all these little tricks and tips coherently. And no thank you, I don't care to watch more tutorial videos.


1.We have been talking about adding a reaction fire. This seams to be something lots of people request. Right now its lots about predicting where your enemies will move. Making sure to keep distance is a good suggestion.
2.There are some forces that are better and worse for the AI. a suggestion is to use a force for the AI that has the kind of troops you prefer to see them use.
3.Test the game on annilation and there is no need to capture anything :).
4.Working on that manual! and patches to boot. Your feedback is what we will put in the game.

(in reply to gunnergoz)
Post #: 40
RE: First impressions - 4/2/2012 6:53:59 PM   
gunnergoz


Posts: 385
Joined: 5/21/2002
From: San Diego CA
Status: offline
Thank you Nomet, I am reassured by your interest in getting feedback from posters here. I'm hanging in there to see how things go from here.

_____________________________

"Things are getting better!
...Well, maybe not as good as they were yesterday, but much better than they will be tomorrow!"
-Old Russian saying

(in reply to nomet)
Post #: 41
RE: First impressions - 4/3/2012 3:52:59 AM   
Xerkis


Posts: 115
Joined: 9/6/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: J P Falcon

quote:

ORIGINAL: DBeves


quote:

ORIGINAL: tjfox1

Did a test last night. One of my squads was behind cover with a line of sight to and enemy squad, yes i could have shot at them but i didn't I "saved my action". The enemy squad moved toward me in the open and my squad did nothing, amazingly the enemy squad didn't shoot at me either. The next turn the enemy sqaud moved toward me again and again my squad did nothing. During this entire time my squad did not perform any actions other then "Save Action" and did nothing while an enemy squad moved around in their line of sight for two turns. This "game" is being removed from my hard drive.


Say it again - there is NO - reaction fire in the game. you arent not getting something ... its simply not there. The proffered excuse was that it was in the original but removed as it made the game boring. that better than making it worth playing ?


But the OP is not stating that HIS units are moving and the enemy is not firing but that the AI is advancing and not firing. He is not describing a reaction fire situation but a simple AI advance and fire situation. Now unless the LOS was in fact not present as the OP thought, then something is whacked.


What kind of outfit does the player’s squad have? If it’s a Platanenmuster or Frog-Skin then the advancing enemy won’t be able to see your squad. You’re not moving, you are in “stealth” mode. Also, if the advancing enemy is “running” they will not be able to fire at the player’s squad since they have used up their turn for that round.

(in reply to J P Falcon)
Post #: 42
RE: First impressions - 4/4/2012 11:12:12 PM   
boerkameel

 

Posts: 5
Joined: 4/4/2012
Status: offline
Hello there,

I've registered here to comment on this thread. I've purchased the game the day it was released, without following much of it's development. It just looked interesting.
Going over the OP and responses, there are some valid points. However, I must say that I find it odd that people are complaining the game does not do what they expect it to do. Are you guys so conservative that a bit of change is so odd?


Indeed, there is no interrupt in the game. A turn is a "hard turn". Maybe you're not used to games that do it that way, but this is how the devs chose to make it. Maybe they made it in the image of board games, where a move stays yours. It requires planning - strategy, not tactics. I choose to adapt to the game, and find it a rewarding experience.
You have to use cover (lv2 or 3) and FOV optimally to see the enemy well in advance. If the enemy uses a FOV blocking approach and camouflage gear, he'll end up right next to you. How is that not realistic?
Even if an interrupt is built in, half of the ingame weapons are too heavy or cumbersome to fire accurately after moving anyway.

This makes the game a bit slower paced then others. Exactly what draws me to turn based.

Please, don't push the devs into making it into some other game you like. The gaming world is messed up enough with all large studios copying each others success formula. I've played Jagged Alliance and liked it's interrupts, and Fallout Tactics without interrupts.
Or just admit the game is too difficult for you and play something else


In Re: to the realism / historic accuracy: Ingame loading screens mention "we chose game balance over realism". Giving all calibers the same penetration and stopping power might be more realistic, it could as well break the weapon types balance.
The modding capabilities seem extensive, I guess you could alter weapon stats yourself if it's that crucial.

*sidenote*
I've played some single- and multiplayer sessions rather successively. If you need gameplay tips, just ask. Some of my pointers:
- Fielding a large squad isn't that productive, as suggested. The game is balanced for squads of 2-5 soldiers. More cost more, you may lack points to be able to field a large troop. Aim for 450-550CR squads.
- Get a high ranked commander to be able to play early in the turn.
- Specialize your squads. Eg: Sniper team of 2, recon/capture of 4 with SMG and rifles, support of 2 with MG and assault rifle. Possible additions: close quarters / mass damage squad with bazooka and flamethrower / all assault rifle squad to suppress enemy.
- Balance gear. Para gear gives more ammo capacity and limited camouflage. It also allows your men to start the game further from the drop zone, and later in the game to drop mid-field. Essential for those quick captures and reinforcements.
- Experiment with disciplines. Endurance makes your MG squad sprint further and not wheeze for air after 2 runs. Recon helps in counter-camouflage.

< Message edited by boerkameel -- 4/4/2012 11:13:42 PM >

(in reply to Xerkis)
Post #: 43
RE: First impressions - 4/5/2012 5:54:38 AM   
gunnergoz


Posts: 385
Joined: 5/21/2002
From: San Diego CA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: boerkameel

Hello there,

I've registered here to comment on this thread. I've purchased the game the day it was released, without following much of it's development. It just looked interesting.
Going over the OP and responses, there are some valid points. However, I must say that I find it odd that people are complaining the game does not do what they expect it to do. Are you guys so conservative that a bit of change is so odd?


Indeed, there is no interrupt in the game. A turn is a "hard turn". Maybe you're not used to games that do it that way, but this is how the devs chose to make it. Maybe they made it in the image of board games, where a move stays yours. It requires planning - strategy, not tactics. I choose to adapt to the game, and find it a rewarding experience.
You have to use cover (lv2 or 3) and FOV optimally to see the enemy well in advance. If the enemy uses a FOV blocking approach and camouflage gear, he'll end up right next to you. How is that not realistic?
Even if an interrupt is built in, half of the ingame weapons are too heavy or cumbersome to fire accurately after moving anyway.

This makes the game a bit slower paced then others. Exactly what draws me to turn based.

Please, don't push the devs into making it into some other game you like. The gaming world is messed up enough with all large studios copying each others success formula. I've played Jagged Alliance and liked it's interrupts, and Fallout Tactics without interrupts.
Or just admit the game is too difficult for you and play something else


In Re: to the realism / historic accuracy: Ingame loading screens mention "we chose game balance over realism". Giving all calibers the same penetration and stopping power might be more realistic, it could as well break the weapon types balance.
The modding capabilities seem extensive, I guess you could alter weapon stats yourself if it's that crucial.

*sidenote*
I've played some single- and multiplayer sessions rather successively. If you need gameplay tips, just ask. Some of my pointers:
- Fielding a large squad isn't that productive, as suggested. The game is balanced for squads of 2-5 soldiers. More cost more, you may lack points to be able to field a large troop. Aim for 450-550CR squads.
- Get a high ranked commander to be able to play early in the turn.
- Specialize your squads. Eg: Sniper team of 2, recon/capture of 4 with SMG and rifles, support of 2 with MG and assault rifle. Possible additions: close quarters / mass damage squad with bazooka and flamethrower / all assault rifle squad to suppress enemy.
- Balance gear. Para gear gives more ammo capacity and limited camouflage. It also allows your men to start the game further from the drop zone, and later in the game to drop mid-field. Essential for those quick captures and reinforcements.
- Experiment with disciplines. Endurance makes your MG squad sprint further and not wheeze for air after 2 runs. Recon helps in counter-camouflage.


Thank you for your post. I am pretty much exclusively a TBS-oriented gamer, so the pace of the game is just fine. What I object to so far has to do mostly with the poor documentation of precisely what the game expects players to do in order to survive and to win. The lack of a passive reaction fire segment is bothersome but I suppose it could be justified by the programmers as being what they wanted and not an oversight. Since the original X-com and similar tactical TBS games, saving points for a passive reaction fire response to enemy moves has been part of many games. This one takes exception to that, which does not please many, myself included. But oh well, have to adapt or get out of Dodge, right?

As for the game's being optimized for smaller squads, that is one thing that I do take issue with. WW2 infantry squads varied from 8 to 12 men. I suppose you can call a 4 man fire team a squad and let it go at that, but the game then goes and assigns leaders up to the rank of "major" for these teams, which is totally unrealistic. That sort of patent lack of realism is what sticks in my craw perhaps most of all. It rather spoils the suspension of disbelief that I like to enjoy while playing. I'd rather they had another way to add initiative to certain squad members other than rank - unless, of course, they get the rank system correct. A proper 4 man team might be led by a corporal, not a lieutenant or captain and certainly not a major.

These are perhaps piddling complaints of an old military history buff who happens to enjoy these computer games. But if a game is in part sold on the basis of its historical accuracy, then it is only fair to take the developers to task when they fail to deliver on that part of the game.

Like I said earlier, I'm being patient and seeing what develops in this game and its patches, DLC and follow on releases.

_____________________________

"Things are getting better!
...Well, maybe not as good as they were yesterday, but much better than they will be tomorrow!"
-Old Russian saying

(in reply to boerkameel)
Post #: 44
RE: First impressions - 4/5/2012 8:42:12 AM   
nomet

 

Posts: 32
Joined: 3/29/2012
Status: offline
our main thing with the force builder was that you where sepouse to be able to build it the way you wanted. if you want I can have a look at making it possible for 12 soldiers in a squad. the thing with ranks was something we where aware of (ex-army after all) but we said that if you wanted to build a specil forces squad. A paratrooper squad that was sepouse to go on some special mission you could. so to us its more giving the player the ability to make what thay want that is important. someone might want to make something exlusive for gameplay others striving for realism.

(in reply to gunnergoz)
Post #: 45
RE: First impressions - 4/5/2012 11:58:40 AM   
Xerkis


Posts: 115
Joined: 9/6/2008
Status: offline
@ gunnergoz
If it’s the rank system that is troubling you – I’m wondering if it is simply the titles.
If instead of Officer ranks, if TA kept within the Enlisted ranks? Replacing maybe “Captain” with perhaps “Sergeant First Class” – or something along those lines? So it sounds like to me your issue with this is really simply in the “title” of the ranks – not with the rank system itself.

And your other point – size of the “squads”. Here you say that maybe they are more like “fire teams”. Again, it sounds to me like your issue is with the “title” of the groups of men, not with the groups of men themselves.

And this makes a big difference in how Zeal needs to react. If what your issue with the game are about game mechanics or simply about semantics within the game. If it’s game mechanics, it could take tons of programming hours to fix – if that’s needed then so be it. But semantics could be as simple as a search and replace the word squad with fire team.

I hope you see what I’m trying to get at here.

(in reply to nomet)
Post #: 46
RE: First impressions - 4/5/2012 1:09:48 PM   
mbar


Posts: 465
Joined: 3/17/2010
Status: offline
I can see now that the Force Builder is an integral part of playing the game. Understanding the squads and what adjusts their stats. The forces you build can reflect your own strategies and how you like to play the game.

(in reply to Xerkis)
Post #: 47
RE: First impressions - 4/5/2012 1:17:28 PM   
Xerkis


Posts: 115
Joined: 9/6/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: mbar

I can see now that the Force Builder is an integral part of playing the game. Understanding the squads and what adjusts their stats. The forces you build can reflect your own strategies and how you like to play the game.


Very much the key. In fact you can spend just as much time in the Force Builder as you can playing the game.
And why I made all those charts – I think it helps with this part of the game. . . . . and this is a big part of the game.

(in reply to mbar)
Post #: 48
RE: First impressions - 4/7/2012 11:33:34 AM   
boerkameel

 

Posts: 5
Joined: 4/4/2012
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: gunnergoz

Thank you for your post. I am pretty much exclusively a TBS-oriented gamer, so the pace of the game is just fine. What I object to so far has to do mostly with the poor documentation of precisely what the game expects players to do in order to survive and to win. The lack of a passive reaction fire segment is bothersome but I suppose it could be justified by the programmers as being what they wanted and not an oversight. Since the original X-com and similar tactical TBS games, saving points for a passive reaction fire response to enemy moves has been part of many games. This one takes exception to that, which does not please many, myself included. But oh well, have to adapt or get out of Dodge, right?


No problem. I find this game good, but not yet excellent. It could evolve into that by having the right audience that supports it with constructive feedback, and I think it needs people like you: with the proper background to weigh it against it's competitors and history.
I have, as many others, been spoiled (bored?) lately with games "holding your hand". Even before you place your first ingame click, some voice shouts "LEFT CLICK THE BATTLEFIELD TO ISSUE A MOVE ORDER". I found it refreshing to be able to experiment with how I want to play it from scratch.
However, I have suggested they include explanations to the cover system, camouflage and advanced tactics in their training videos. They will also be creating a manual.

quote:

ORIGINAL: gunnergoz
As for the game's being optimized for smaller squads, that is one thing that I do take issue with. WW2 infantry squads varied from 8 to 12 men. I suppose you can call a 4 man fire team a squad and let it go at that, but the game then goes and assigns leaders up to the rank of "major" for these teams, which is totally unrealistic. That sort of patent lack of realism is what sticks in my craw perhaps most of all. It rather spoils the suspension of disbelief that I like to enjoy while playing. I'd rather they had another way to add initiative to certain squad members other than rank - unless, of course, they get the rank system correct. A proper 4 man team might be led by a corporal, not a lieutenant or captain and certainly not a major.

These are perhaps piddling complaints of an old military history buff who happens to enjoy these computer games. But if a game is in part sold on the basis of its historical accuracy, then it is only fair to take the developers to task when they fail to deliver on that part of the game.


I'm not that up to date with military ranks. Sounds like something they can easily change, if this is something that bothers the players / prevents people from playing.
On another note: they want to emulate a board game. I've played Stratego, it also fields various ranks without squads. Their goal might be to use ranks that can be recognized by an average, not ww2-savvy wargamer. I can relate, I wouldn't know the difference between all the sub-ranks. It's hard to cater to the different needs of each gamer.

quote:

ORIGINAL: gunnergoz
Like I said earlier, I'm being patient and seeing what develops in this game and its patches, DLC and follow on releases.

I just hope some do choose to play and support the game. Otherwise the developers won't have much incentive (and cash) to continue improving/expanding it.

(in reply to gunnergoz)
Post #: 49
RE: First impressions - 4/7/2012 11:35:24 AM   
boerkameel

 

Posts: 5
Joined: 4/4/2012
Status: offline
I hope Zeal chooses to place Xerkis' overviews on their website.
That, combined with a tool to upload/configure squads on the site, should allow us to compare squads and talk about their effectiveness on specific maps, and in specific roles.

(in reply to boerkameel)
Post #: 50
RE: First impressions - 4/7/2012 1:19:33 PM   
Xerkis


Posts: 115
Joined: 9/6/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: boerkameel

I hope Zeal chooses to place Xerkis' overviews on their website.
That, combined with a tool to upload/configure squads on the site, should allow us to compare squads and talk about their effectiveness on specific maps, and in specific roles.


Thanks for the vote of confidence.


And you can already upload your forces.
Go to the folder ….. My Games\Team Assault\Teams\ and just copy the “.tat” file of the force you want to share.
Anyone needs to drop that in their same folder and there you go. They can look at it in their Force Builder or use it in their game.

(in reply to boerkameel)
Post #: 51
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