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Pearl vs Manila: Alt Hist

 
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Pearl vs Manila: Alt Hist - 3/21/2012 5:29:32 PM   
John 3rd


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Over in the Modding Area we have been talking about Admiral Richardson's January 1941 Plan to move a Carrier TF to Manila. The idea was to move 1 CV, 4 CA, 1 DL, 8 DD, 1 AO, and 4 DM to buttress the Asiatic Fleet. My guess would be that Enterprise might have gotten the assignment.

Here is the question: If this had happened and you, as the Japanese player, are allowed only one Port Strike, where to you attack?

Do you attack PH and go after the Battle Fleet leaving a CV to cause trouble in the Philippines and DEI

OR

Do you throw everything you have at Manila to get that CV, the CAs, and SS but leave the entire Pacific Fleet undamaged at Pearl?

Have FUN!

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RE: Pearl vs Manila: Alt Hist - 3/21/2012 5:36:20 PM   
Mundy


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I think anyone would give up a lot for a shot at one CV. All the SSs in Manila would be a bonus.

I've found projecting those battlewagons around without setting up a good fuel network might make them moot for awhile anyway.

Ed-

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RE: Pearl vs Manila: Alt Hist - 3/21/2012 5:37:00 PM   
Commander Stormwolf

 

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Even without the CV there,

Dec 1941 would have gone after Singapore (2xBB), Manila (27xSS), and Hong Kong (DD and PT)

the Sing/Manila/HK operation probably had a 90% chance of surprise... PH was 50/50 at best and was a stupid gamble..
would have been funny if KB was ambushed and sunk on Dec 7

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RE: Pearl vs Manila: Alt Hist - 3/21/2012 5:38:58 PM   
Historiker


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Manila. CV and many subs + the KB is immediatly available where the other action is.

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RE: Pearl vs Manila: Alt Hist - 3/21/2012 5:40:31 PM   
Commander Stormwolf

 

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If you can overrun the DEI in 2 months, February 1942 is the start date for *second phase operations*

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RE: Pearl vs Manila: Alt Hist - 3/21/2012 6:20:03 PM   
nate25


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I'd go for Manila.

Excuse my ignorance, what is a DL?

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RE: Pearl vs Manila: Alt Hist - 3/21/2012 6:20:55 PM   
USS America


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quote:

ORIGINAL: nate25

I'd go for Manila.

Excuse my ignorance, what is a DL?


Pretty sure it was a typo, meant to be "CL".

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RE: Pearl vs Manila: Alt Hist - 3/21/2012 6:37:55 PM   
nate25


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Got it, thanks USS America.

Manila's just too juicy. 1 CV, 4 CAs, 1 CL, what, 18 DDs with those already present, 27 SSs, support ships, a decent amt. of merchies, plus a much better chance of getting CL Boise and CA Houston in the general area?

A JFB wet dream.

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RE: Pearl vs Manila: Alt Hist - 3/21/2012 6:58:46 PM   
Chickenboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd
Do you throw everything you have at Manila to get that CV, the CAs, and SS but leave the entire Pacific Fleet undamaged at Pearl?


I typically will opt for a Manila strike with KB and company on day one *anyways*. This additional bounty just would cement my decision.

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RE: Pearl vs Manila: Alt Hist - 3/21/2012 8:34:18 PM   
jeffk3510


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Neither...let us use our WWI tooooooys!

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RE: Pearl vs Manila: Alt Hist - 3/21/2012 9:36:58 PM   
crsutton


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With only about 25 wildcat fighters on the E I would think my Betties and Nells could neutralize her if not sink her outright. I think I would still go ahead and hammer Pearl.

I just don't think one lone American carrier can do much harm at that stage.

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RE: Pearl vs Manila: Alt Hist - 3/21/2012 10:22:11 PM   
Terminus


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"DL" means "Destroyer Leader", either a large destroyer or a light cruiser. And I'd totally pound on Manilla.

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RE: Pearl vs Manila: Alt Hist - 3/22/2012 1:14:37 PM   
Shellshock


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I wouuld almost think the Japanese hand would be forced into attacking Manila if one US CV was parked there. Should this US carrier be only lightly damaged or missed, she's free to wreak havoc among the myraid tranport fleets in the area...or pounce on the Ryujo.

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RE: Pearl vs Manila: Alt Hist - 3/22/2012 2:04:23 PM   
Shark7


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quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

Over in the Modding Area we have been talking about Admiral Richardson's January 1941 Plan to move a Carrier TF to Manila. The idea was to move 1 CV, 4 CA, 1 DL, 8 DD, 1 AO, and 4 DM to buttress the Asiatic Fleet. My guess would be that Enterprise might have gotten the assignment.

Here is the question: If this had happened and you, as the Japanese player, are allowed only one Port Strike, where to you attack?

Do you attack PH and go after the Battle Fleet leaving a CV to cause trouble in the Philippines and DEI

OR

Do you throw everything you have at Manila to get that CV, the CAs, and SS but leave the entire Pacific Fleet undamaged at Pearl?

Have FUN!


The only thing a CV group in Manila in 1941 is going to accomplish is a couple hundred victory points for the Japanese player. I've tried that little scenario, and if it does anything to stay in Betty range, its done for. The 1941 air groups on the carriers just are not up to the task of stopping a major raid by Bettys/Nells.

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RE: Pearl vs Manila: Alt Hist - 3/22/2012 2:44:19 PM   
seille

 

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Manila

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RE: Pearl vs Manila: Alt Hist - 3/22/2012 4:39:45 PM   
Commander Stormwolf

 

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the only reason you would want to sent carriers to manila in 1941.. would be to plan
a first strike against the IJN at truk (or home islands)


Rogue Admiral scenario

.. with RAF captain mandrake and General Jack D Ripper Macarthur




Attachment (1)

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RE: Pearl vs Manila: Alt Hist - 3/22/2012 9:17:03 PM   
DOCUP


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Take what I say for granted.  I don't have the knowlege of you guys.  I would think that with the time difference the CV TF would be putting out to sea or be out to sea on Dec 7th.  All fighters would be up and maybe some LBAs would help cover the withdraw of this TF.

my 2 cents

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RE: Pearl vs Manila: Alt Hist - 3/23/2012 3:13:10 PM   
Shark7


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DOCUP

Take what I say for granted.  I don't have the knowlege of you guys.  I would think that with the time difference the CV TF would be putting out to sea or be out to sea on Dec 7th.  All fighters would be up and maybe some LBAs would help cover the withdraw of this TF.

my 2 cents


Still too much air power out of Formosa. The carrier group would have to immediately move south, if it stays to close to Formosa, then it simply gets over-whelmed with pure numbers of Betty/Nell attacks.

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RE: Pearl vs Manila: Alt Hist - 3/23/2012 3:20:48 PM   
Terminus


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Definitely. Base it at Davao, maybe?

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RE: Pearl vs Manila: Alt Hist - 3/23/2012 4:18:37 PM   
Shark7


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Definitely. Base it at Davao, maybe?


That would work. Just remember its going to run into the Ryujo group out of Palau though, likely to have a carrier battle there with one of 4 outcomes: Sunk Ryujo, Sunk Enterprise, both sunk or neither sunk. I think sunk Ryujo is the most plausible with neither sunk running a close second.

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RE: Pearl vs Manila: Alt Hist - 3/23/2012 4:19:43 PM   
Terminus


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Ryujo carries Claudes and Kates. My money is on Enterprise.

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RE: Pearl vs Manila: Alt Hist - 3/23/2012 4:21:48 PM   
Commander Stormwolf

 

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Ryujo and Zuiho should have served as dedicated CAP carriers, as part of KB
(another of the IJN mistakes of 1942)

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RE: Pearl vs Manila: Alt Hist - 3/23/2012 4:54:12 PM   
Puhis

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shark7


quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Definitely. Base it at Davao, maybe?


That would work. Just remember its going to run into the Ryujo group out of Palau though, likely to have a carrier battle there with one of 4 outcomes: Sunk Ryujo, Sunk Enterprise, both sunk or neither sunk. I think sunk Ryujo is the most plausible with neither sunk running a close second.


Ryujo alone is dead meat for sure. But if we are talking about alternative history, how about Ryujo and Zuiho together? Zuiho is doing nothing in Japan.

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RE: Pearl vs Manila: Alt Hist - 3/23/2012 5:08:51 PM   
Historiker


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Yamamoto surely would have taken the US CV into account and tried to allocate the needed ressources to handle this threat.
Propably just four CVs against PH while one Carrier-Division hunts the stronger Asian fleet.

< Message edited by Historiker -- 3/23/2012 5:44:53 PM >


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RE: Pearl vs Manila: Alt Hist - 3/23/2012 5:45:39 PM   
nate25


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Or maybe no PH strike at all?

Would US CVs based that close to home have changed his objectives somewhat?

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RE: Pearl vs Manila: Alt Hist - 3/23/2012 5:47:24 PM   
John 3rd


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Can count that a US CV moving to the Philippines would be well known (think Force Z). Could easily see Yamamoto change planes by placing Zuiho with Ryujo (46 Fighters and 30 Kates is a sizeable strike force). Past that...who knows.

Concur that the time differential would allow the TF to formed up and moving.

This would be a lot of fun to play as an Alt Scen!


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RE: Pearl vs Manila: Alt Hist - 3/23/2012 6:18:12 PM   
aphrochine


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The attack on Pearl Harbor and crippling the US fleet there was the core of the Japanese strategy which was to be followed by a heavily defended perimeter. I dont see a major change away from that. The attack was still commenced without the US CV's at PH, even with the potential threat of them in range to attack the KB while at PH. 1 CV at Manilla would have made for different plans for those operations, as mentioned above but I do not see a wholesale abandonment of the PH strike with 1 CV at Manila.

In game, without any way to change the IJ disposition I'd still hit PH with the KB and task more forces against the Asiatic Fleet. As of now, what little I've played the opening months as JFB the effort is just to sink as much fleeing Asiatic Fleet as possible with a focus of forces on protecting various landings. With the 'E' out of Manila, the priority of forces would be to defeat the E first, maybe limit some of the small ops to allow more concentration on bigger ops and do more hunting.

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RE: Pearl vs Manila: Alt Hist - 3/23/2012 6:33:43 PM   
Historiker


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I've never done any serious research about Yamamoto. What I've read is, that he was disappointed not to have caught a CV in PH.
If that is true, it seems perfectly logical that he would try to make sure he'll get the one he can defenitly get.

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RE: Pearl vs Manila: Alt Hist - 3/23/2012 6:59:06 PM   
Terminus


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Why wouldn't he be disappointed?

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RE: Pearl vs Manila: Alt Hist - 3/23/2012 7:00:38 PM   
Historiker


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Because BBs were the target of choice.
By voicing his disappointment, he obviously saw CVs as the main target. Consequently, he shouldn't risk anything in the PI to get one of them.

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