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RE: unlucky navy

 
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RE: unlucky navy - 4/3/2012 6:31:33 PM   
michaelbaldur


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur


it have really been a unlucky couple of impulses for the CW navy.

all of its big ships sunk. it have 1 carrier and 1 CA left.

and som CL and cvl .. but all battleships sunk




Did you loose them all at once or piecemeal?


All at once would be bad luck.

Piecemeal would be your error.


Remember: "There is no kill like overkill" ~ Schlock Mercenary, "The Seventy Maxims of Maximally Effective Mercenaries"







it was one big naval battle ..

to be fair I cheated a little. I did it to test a large scale naval battle.

I like to have a little fun while testing.

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I work hard, not smart.

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(in reply to Extraneous)
Post #: 31
RE: unlucky navy - 4/3/2012 8:30:32 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: micheljq

quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur

Who needs aircraft carriers if one is fighting in the Med and able to get land based air cover almost everywhere? The main Italian problem was the Italian High Command. They didn't use their navy and airforce the way they should have done, from a military point of view. The use of radar came during the war itself and was in 1940 and 1941 not used extensively on Allied ships. Especially in late 1940, after the fall of France, the Italian navy was superior to the British in the Med. Fact was however that the Italians didn't realise this. If they had...

It is the same in WiF. An Italian player should use his navy wisely with air cover over it. If he does, than the CW might get a nasty surprise, even with CW carrier planes covering the British fleet. The British carrier planes can't cope with the Italians, IMHO. No, if the Euroaxis play it right, the British fleet will be hovering in the Cape St. Vincent after France is conquered/Vichyfied and won't venture a lot into the Med, until they have enough LBA in the Western Med.


Hi Centuur, I am not convinced about the fact that the ritals were able to cover all the Med. My understanding is that they had a good cover in the vicinity of Italy, Malta, Tunisia, Lybia coastlines.

The british were already aware of the threat to their carriers from land based airplanes, they already had experienced it near Narvik where they lost a carrier to the Luftwaffe. They were already cautious about not approaching too much from certain bases where they knew italian airplanes could come.

Another thing the italian navy did not have was the experience many crews of the Royal Navy had, it was one of the old british battleships, the Warspite who scored a record 26000 yards hit on the Guilio Cesare, not the contrary, despite the italian navy having "better guns" theorically.

Maybe the italian fleet was not very eager to engage the older british battleships, who knows if they had done it in 1940, what could have had happened you maybe right, we will never know.
Warspite1

If you refer to the carrier Glorious then that had nothing to do with air power. Glorious was sunk by the Scharnhorst and Gneisenau.

It was the balls of Admiral Cunningham that won the victory of Matapan. He ran the risk of sailing his ships sufficiently close to the mainland such that they would be attacked from the air once daylight came. However, unlike the Italian Admirals (who were in fairness acting on orders from above) Cunningham saw his job as putting himself in harm's way if it meant securing a naval victory.

That, ultimately, was the difference.

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Post #: 32
RE: unlucky navy - 4/4/2012 9:29:09 PM   
Extraneous

 

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To be fair it probably started out as a fairly even fight.

CW = 31 ships 117-attack strength 47-AA strength

Enemy ships 23-29
X 4
D 3
A 2
AA 3/3


World in Flames: Global war (see 24.4.7)
Battleships: Guilio Cesare and Conte di Cavour
Heavy Cruisers: Abruzzi, Bolzano, Duca D'Aosta, E. Di Savoia, Fiume, Garibaldi, Gorizia, Pola, San Giorgio, Trieste, Trento, and Zara
Light Cruisers: Attendolo, Bande Nere, Barbiano, Bari, Cadorna, Colleoni, Diaz, Guissano, Montecuccoli, and Taranto

2x Trs
3x Submarine
7x CP

Italians = 24 ships 60-attack strength 36-AA strength

Enemy ships 30+
X 3
D 2
A 2
AA 2/3



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Post #: 33
RE: unlucky navy - 4/4/2012 10:01:24 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

To be fair it probably started out as a fairly even fight.

CW = 31 ships 117-attack strength 47-AA strength

Enemy ships 23-29
X 4
D 3
A 2
AA 3/3


World in Flames: Global war (see 24.4.7)
Battleships: Guilio Cesare and Conte di Cavour
Heavy Cruisers: Abruzzi, Bolzano, Duca D'Aosta, E. Di Savoia, Fiume, Garibaldi, Gorizia, Pola, San Giorgio, Trieste, Trento, and Zara
Light Cruisers: Attendolo, Bande Nere, Barbiano, Bari, Cadorna, Colleoni, Diaz, Guissano, Montecuccoli, and Taranto

2x Trs
3x Submarine
7x CP

Italians = 24 ships 60-attack strength 36-AA strength

Enemy ships 30+
X 3
D 2
A 2
AA 2/3


Warspite1

Que? Are you talking WIF or WWII??

_____________________________

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Post #: 34
RE: unlucky navy - 4/5/2012 7:40:35 PM   
Extraneous

 

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I was refering to the MWiF battle michaelbaldur has created and is refering to.

The Italian ship names are from "World in Flames: Global war (see 24.4.7)" from RAW7scenario,pdf

The numbers are from Wifchart.pdf.



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Post #: 35
RE: unlucky navy - 4/5/2012 8:12:37 PM   
warspite1


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Okay, understood.

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Post #: 36
RE: unlucky navy - 4/7/2012 8:05:03 PM   
SLAAKMAN


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Extraneous,
quote:

To be fair it probably started out as a fairly even fight.

CW = 31 ships 117-attack strength 47-AA strength

Enemy ships 23-29
X 4
D 3
A 2
AA 3/3


World in Flames: Global war (see 24.4.7)
Battleships: Guilio Cesare and Conte di Cavour
Heavy Cruisers: Abruzzi, Bolzano, Duca D'Aosta, E. Di Savoia, Fiume, Garibaldi, Gorizia, Pola, San Giorgio, Trieste, Trento, and Zara
Light Cruisers: Attendolo, Bande Nere, Barbiano, Bari, Cadorna, Colleoni, Diaz, Guissano, Montecuccoli, and Taranto

2x Trs
3x Submarine
7x CP

Italians = 24 ships 60-attack strength 36-AA strength

Enemy ships 30+
X 3
D 2
A 2
AA 2/3

Luv it! Thank you again for your astute contributions Mr Extraneous!

_____________________________

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(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 37
RE: unlucky navy - 4/8/2012 5:42:55 PM   
Extraneous

 

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All I will say is when beta testing all aspects of the game should be explored even bad ones.


We really have insufficient information to judge his actions and why he chose them.

He mentioned Italian LAN but not how many of them, the results of the CW fleet Anti-aircraft fire, or the results of their attacks.

What were the search roll results?

What were the chosen combat types (11.5.8 Surface naval combat, 11.5.9 Naval air combat, 11.5.10 Submarine combat)?

Also the defense factor of the ships has to be considered.



Or he could just dislike the Royal Navy.


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Post #: 38
RE: unlucky navy - 4/8/2012 6:38:09 PM   
paulderynck


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Migawd, how could you dislike the RN ??

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Post #: 39
RE: unlucky navy - 4/8/2012 6:51:45 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

Migawd, how could you dislike the RN ??
Warspite1

Well he is Danish - perhaps he has a hang up about Copenhagen 1801

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Post #: 40
RE: unlucky navy - 4/8/2012 9:17:13 PM   
michaelbaldur


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From: denmark
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we will never forget 1805.

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I work hard, not smart.

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Post #: 41
RE: unlucky navy - 4/8/2012 9:38:45 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur


we will never forget 1805.
Warspite1

1805? - do you have French/Spanish blood too?

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 4/8/2012 9:48:34 PM >


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Post #: 42
RE: unlucky navy - 4/8/2012 10:26:29 PM   
michaelbaldur


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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur


we will never forget 1805.
Warspite1

1805? - do you have French/Spanish blood too?


ahhh it was 1807 ...

the British steal the Danish fleet.

_____________________________

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I work hard, not smart.

beta tester and Mwif expert

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Post #: 43
RE: unlucky navy - 4/8/2012 10:32:01 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur


we will never forget 1805.
Warspite1

1805? - do you have French/Spanish blood too?


ahhh it was 1807 ...

the British steal the Danish fleet.
Warspite1

So you did forget

As for stealing the fleet, that's what happens when you get into bed with Napoleon

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Post #: 44
RE: unlucky navy - 4/8/2012 11:18:19 PM   
michaelbaldur


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i´m not going to answer that

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I work hard, not smart.

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Post #: 45
RE: unlucky navy - 4/8/2012 11:23:09 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur


i´m not going to answer that
Warspite1



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Post #: 46
RE: unlucky navy - 4/9/2012 11:43:35 AM   
Centuur


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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur


we will never forget 1805.
Warspite1

1805? - do you have French/Spanish blood too?


ahhh it was 1807 ...

the British steal the Danish fleet.
Warspite1

So you did forget

As for stealing the fleet, that's what happens when you get into bed with Napoleon

Or when the British said that they owned the seas... Wasn't there something like Chatham, where the Dutch did steal and burned British warships, I believe? Only the fact that De Ruyter choose the wrong inlet to sail in for, did mean that that Island accross the North Sea didn't end up as part of the Dutch Republic at that time...
By the way: the Dutch invented the marines in that war (1667...).

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Post #: 47
RE: unlucky navy - 4/9/2012 2:08:37 PM   
warspite1


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I'm not sure that there was ever a possibility that the Dutch would conquer England. Nor do i think the Royal Navy claimed to own the seas that early in our history. However, the Dutch certainly inflicted a very heavy defeat upon the English in the Medway.

The Dutch were a very advanced nation - I think I'm right in saying we nicked not only your navy later on but also your financial system - sadly for the Dutch, geography was against them - imagine what they could have done with a great big moat around their nation?



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Post #: 48
RE: unlucky navy - 4/9/2012 2:12:02 PM   
Orm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur


we will never forget 1805.
Warspite1

1805? - do you have French/Spanish blood too?


ahhh it was 1807 ...

the British steal the Danish fleet.
Warspite1

So you did forget

As for stealing the fleet, that's what happens when you get into bed with Napoleon

As I understood it Denmark wanted to stay neutral in this conflict. The main part of the Danish army was located at the German border to defend against Napoleon. And wether France or United Kingdom where the villians during the Napoleon Wars I suspect is in the eye of the beholder or as always the one who lost is the villain.

After the bombardment more than two thousand civilians had died and large portion of Copenhagen was in ruins. One could even claim that that as a consequence of the borbardment of Copenhagen 1807 Denmark was more or less forced to join Napoleon and in the end it led to that Denmark lost Norway and a Danish state bankruptcy.



I am sorry for beeing so .

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Post #: 49
RE: unlucky navy - 4/9/2012 5:27:46 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur


we will never forget 1805.
Warspite1

1805? - do you have French/Spanish blood too?


ahhh it was 1807 ...

the British steal the Danish fleet.
Warspite1

So you did forget

As for stealing the fleet, that's what happens when you get into bed with Napoleon

As I understood it Denmark wanted to stay neutral in this conflict. The main part of the Danish army was located at the German border to defend against Napoleon. And wether France or United Kingdom where the villians during the Napoleon Wars I suspect is in the eye of the beholder or as always the one who lost is the villain.

After the bombardment more than two thousand civilians had died and large portion of Copenhagen was in ruins. One could even claim that that as a consequence of the borbardment of Copenhagen 1807 Denmark was more or less forced to join Napoleon and in the end it led to that Denmark lost Norway and a Danish state bankruptcy.



I am sorry for beeing so .
Warspite1

Do you not see Napoleon as a villain Orm?

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Post #: 50
RE: unlucky navy - 4/9/2012 6:40:50 PM   
michaelbaldur


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the villain is defined by the number of war criminal acts ...

so every sides in a war is the villain

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Peyton manning is a God and the wif rulebook is my bible

I work hard, not smart.

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Post #: 51
RE: unlucky navy - 4/9/2012 6:47:13 PM   
Orm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur


the villain is defined by the number of war criminal acts ...

so every sides in a war is the villain

I find that it is most often the loosing side that are the villains.

Edit: Not that your statement do not have merit.

< Message edited by Orm -- 4/9/2012 6:55:34 PM >


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Post #: 52
RE: unlucky navy - 4/9/2012 6:54:18 PM   
Orm


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quote:

Warspite1

Do you not see Napoleon as a villain Orm?

I am not quite sure what he did that makes him qualify as a villain. He was involved in numerous wars but alot of them was more of a reaction that most of Europe did not accept revolutionary France (or Napoleon). It might be that he is a villian but so far he seems, to me, as bad (or good) as his contemporary statesmen in other countries.

I do, however, confess that my knowledge on Napoleon and his actions are not as complete as I would like. So I would appreciate if someone could educate me to why Napoleon is considered a villain.

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"Have you thought of going into teaching?"

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Post #: 53
RE: unlucky navy - 4/9/2012 7:11:32 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

quote:

Warspite1

Do you not see Napoleon as a villain Orm?

I am not quite sure what he did that makes him qualify as a villain. He was involved in numerous wars but alot of them was more of a reaction that most of Europe did not accept revolutionary France (or Napoleon). It might be that he is a villian but so far he seems, to me, as bad (or good) as his contemporary statesmen in other countries.

I do, however, confess that my knowledge on Napoleon and his actions are not as complete as I would like. So I would appreciate if someone could educate me to why Napoleon is considered a villain.
Warspite1

Congratulations on your fifth star!!

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Post #: 54
RE: unlucky navy - 4/9/2012 7:13:10 PM   
Orm


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quote:

Warspite1

Congratulations on your fifth star!!


Thank you.

Time for a celebration.

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Post #: 55
RE: unlucky navy - 4/9/2012 7:50:12 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

quote:

Warspite1

Do you not see Napoleon as a villain Orm?

I am not quite sure what he did that makes him qualify as a villain. He was involved in numerous wars but alot of them was more of a reaction that most of Europe did not accept revolutionary France (or Napoleon). It might be that he is a villian but so far he seems, to me, as bad (or good) as his contemporary statesmen in other countries.

I do, however, confess that my knowledge on Napoleon and his actions are not as complete as I would like. So I would appreciate if someone could educate me to why Napoleon is considered a villain.
Warspite1

I don't think it's education - it's only opinions after all.

FWIW I believe Napoleon was very much a villain. He dragged Europe into a prolonged series of conflicts that cost millions of deaths from Spain to Russia, Poland to Egypt and colonies all over the world. He believed in the revolution but crowned himself emperor with all the trappings. He stabbed Allies in the back when it suited him - the Russians and in particular, the Spanish, being prime examples. He supported slavery in his
colonies.

In addition to the misery he foisted on the armies of Europe, his armies lived off the land - essentially plundering whatever they required from civilians that were unlucky enough to be in his path.

He was probably not as bad as Hitler or Stalin in terms of sheer scale, but that does not excuse his actions in my book.

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Post #: 56
RE: unlucky navy - 4/9/2012 7:59:16 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

quote:

Warspite1

Do you not see Napoleon as a villain Orm?

I am not quite sure what he did that makes him qualify as a villain. He was involved in numerous wars but alot of them was more of a reaction that most of Europe did not accept revolutionary France (or Napoleon). It might be that he is a villian but so far he seems, to me, as bad (or good) as his contemporary statesmen in other countries.

I do, however, confess that my knowledge on Napoleon and his actions are not as complete as I would like. So I would appreciate if someone could educate me to why Napoleon is considered a villain.

To a large degree, one's perception of Napoleon depends on one's country of birth.

For instance, I just started reading Churchill's 6 volume set on WWII and I am struck by his opinion that a major difficulty for Germany in the years between the wars was that they did not have a monarch to serve as a unifying element for the populace. Being an American, it would never have occurred to me that lack of a monarch could be a fatal omission in a government. Churchill was a wise and very knowledgeable politician during those years, so his opinion can not be dismissed out-of-hand. But clearly he had a strong bias on this subject. Astonishingly so to me.

EDIT: And to bring this post back on topic, Churchill personally and the Admiralty in general were very concerned about the Italian navy versus the Royal Navy in the Mediterranean prior to WWII. Churchill gives that concern (that the Italians might have been able to defeat the RN in the Med) as one of the reasons that the British did not intervene militarily with the Italian conquest of Ethiopia.

< Message edited by Shannon V. OKeets -- 4/9/2012 8:02:13 PM >


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Post #: 57
RE: unlucky navy - 4/9/2012 8:36:20 PM   
brian brian

 

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Churchill was quite a reactionary conservative really. The blood of innocent civilians in his Empire mattered little to him at times, much as Warspite commented on Napoleon. The freedom and democracy he triumphed was more for English people like him. Residents of other countries under British control weren't so lucky.

His 6 volume set on the war is a must-read for students of WWII history, imo. I think I've read it three times in my life. When my local library decided it no longer had enough activity to keep it on the shelves, I bought their set at the book sale.....for all of $6. It is a pretty common collection, easy to acquire usually.

Before WWII, no one knew for sure how air-power would work with ships. Carriers were developed of course, and specialized aviation squadrons and such, but it was all theory with no combat experience. So I have long thought that Italy's real failure was in the air, given their excellent access to land bases. I understand Italian aircraft designs were good, and I think WiF reflects that in the counters. But I think the Luftwaffe might have sunk more ships in the Med than the Regia Aeronautica, with less planes in theater. But I'm not sure and I have a lot to learn on the history of the air war in the Med. WiF certainly will lead you to an interest in that.

Churchill, on the other hand, probably looked at it more from the prism of Battleship #s and the balance of power therein, demonstrated so lamentably at Mers-el-Kebir in early July 1940....a sad part of the war that long-time WiF players can't quite grasp if they have played the game a lot before they ever learn about it.

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Post #: 58
RE: unlucky navy - 4/9/2012 8:37:03 PM   
brian brian

 

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Churchill was quite a reactionary conservative really. The blood of innocent civilians in his Empire mattered little to him at times, much as Warspite commented on Napoleon. The freedom and democracy he triumphed was more for English people like him. Residents of other countries under British control weren't so lucky.

His 6 volume set on the war is a must-read for students of WWII history, imo. I think I've read it three times in my life. When my local library decided it no longer had enough activity to keep it on the shelves, I bought their set at the book sale.....for all of $6. It is a pretty common collection, easy to acquire usually.

Before WWII, no one knew for sure how air-power would work with ships. Carriers were developed of course, and specialized aviation squadrons and such, but it was all theory with no combat experience. So I have long thought that Italy's real failure was in the air, given their excellent access to land bases. I understand Italian aircraft designs were good, and I think WiF reflects that in the counters. But I think the Luftwaffe might have sunk more ships in the Med than the Regia Aeronautica, with less planes in theater. But I'm not sure and I have a lot to learn on the history of the air war in the Med. WiF certainly will lead you to an interest in that.

Churchill, on the other hand, probably looked at it more from the prism of Battleship #s and the balance of power therein, demonstrated so lamentably at Mers-el-Kebir in early July 1940....a sad part of the war that long-time WiF players can't quite grasp if they have played the game a lot before they ever learn about it.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 59
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