Matrix Games

quote:

ORIGINAL: aspqrz
Your fantasy scenarios are fine with me, just allow as how I want something resembling reality ... and I doubt I am completely alone.

YMMV.

Phil

quote:

ORIGINAL: aspqrz

Sure, "This game gives you control of production, allocation of resources, unit build, etc., control means choices and change. It means things are not necessarily going to be like what happened in the real war. The player can make different choices, that's why we play the game, If we can't make choices, what's the point"

However, as I have tried to point out, what it also does is give far too many PPs ... or make units far too cheap and far too quick to produce (take your pick) in ways that actually make a mockery of the actual resources available to the Germans (and everyone else, of course).

If it was just a matter of shifting around the actual resources that were available, I'd be outrageously happy ... but it's not. It creates far too many resources, at levels that simply didn't and, worse, couldn't, exist in the real world that actually existed.

Problem is, the game's whole resource system needs to be cut back massively, for all sides.

Not only are units too cheap, they produce to quickly ... a typical Division (based on US experience) took around a year and a half to work up from cadre stage + recruits to fully combat ready. In ToF it's what, a month? Six weeks?

Major surface combatants, even under wartime conditions, even using allied "mass production" techniques, took *years*. I forget the figures for all classes, but, typically, for a BB, around 2.5-3 years IIRC. Add another year "working up" the crew to combat ready status.

Really, the game should start in 1935, maybe 1937 at the latest, and the first several years should all be about producing and training the units that both sides historically started the game with, and with the rest of the pre-war unit starts "in the pipeline" ... like in Grigsby's World at War/WaW A World Divided, sort of.

That would be a good start.

Then, of course, the number of PPs needs to be reduced dramatically for all. Or the number of units you can produce needs to be limited in some way that reflects actual resources available.

Rather than a unit cap, hard coded, perhaps, if it could be done, tie specific units to be produced by specific cities, and place them in queues, with a limited number being capable of being produced simultaneously.

You could, for example, practically limit German naval production to realistic levels by, say, having only one surface naval unit slot available at a couple of the port cities, and a slightly larger number of SS slots. Luftwaffe and Armour/Mech slots should, likewise, be limited to specific cities and limited in number capable of being produced simultaneously.

Yes, I know, this is probably not doable ... but reducing the PPs massively is. And you could, at least, make (for example) German or Italian CVs and major surface combatants deliberately prohibitively expensive in terms of time and PP cost to reflect the real world constraints, and have the appearance of German pre-war laid down CV Hulls as active combatants be an event, with a huge PP hit attached (and still with a "couple of years down the track" appearance.

Some, at least, of the above should be possible.

Your fantasy scenarios are fine with me, just allow as how I want something resembling reality ... and I doubt I am completely alone.

YMMV.

Phil

quote:

ORIGINAL: Razz

If you think there are too many PP's just bump it up the next level to Hard or Difficult.
I believe you referring to 1.0 as everyone has stated the reinforcement cost is so high in 1.01 it's hard to keep their forces at full strength.

Again allot of PP's can be used for the invasion of Norway which was left out of the release.

BB's are at 2 years
SS ~ 6 months
CA's are 1 year
CV's 1 1/2 years

quote:

ORIGINAL: aspqrz

Sure, "This game gives you control of production, allocation of resources, unit build, etc., control means choices and change. It means things are not necessarily going to be like what happened in the real war. The player can make different choices, that's why we play the game, If we can't make choices, what's the point"

However, as I have tried to point out, what it also does is give far too many PPs ... or make units far too cheap and far too quick to produce (take your pick) in ways that actually make a mockery of the actual resources available to the Germans (and everyone else, of course).

If it was just a matter of shifting around the actual resources that were available, I'd be outrageously happy ... but it's not. It creates far too many resources, at levels that simply didn't and, worse, couldn't, exist in the real world that actually existed.

Problem is, the game's whole resource system needs to be cut back massively, for all sides.

Not only are units too cheap, they produce to quickly ... a typical Division (based on US experience) took around a year and a half to work up from cadre stage + recruits to fully combat ready. In ToF it's what, a month? Six weeks?

Major surface combatants, even under wartime conditions, even using allied "mass production" techniques, took *years*. I forget the figures for all classes, but, typically, for a BB, around 2.5-3 years IIRC. Add another year "working up" the crew to combat ready status.

Really, the game should start in 1935, maybe 1937 at the latest, and the first several years should all be about producing and training the units that both sides historically started the game with, and with the rest of the pre-war unit starts "in the pipeline" ... like in Grigsby's World at War/WaW A World Divided, sort of.

That would be a good start.

Then, of course, the number of PPs needs to be reduced dramatically for all. Or the number of units you can produce needs to be limited in some way that reflects actual resources available.

Rather than a unit cap, hard coded, perhaps, if it could be done, tie specific units to be produced by specific cities, and place them in queues, with a limited number being capable of being produced simultaneously.

You could, for example, practically limit German naval production to realistic levels by, say, having only one surface naval unit slot available at a couple of the port cities, and a slightly larger number of SS slots. Luftwaffe and Armour/Mech slots should, likewise, be limited to specific cities and limited in number capable of being produced simultaneously.

Yes, I know, this is probably not doable ... but reducing the PPs massively is. And you could, at least, make (for example) German or Italian CVs and major surface combatants deliberately prohibitively expensive in terms of time and PP cost to reflect the real world constraints, and have the appearance of German pre-war laid down CV Hulls as active combatants be an event, with a huge PP hit attached (and still with a "couple of years down the track" appearance.

Some, at least, of the above should be possible.

Your fantasy scenarios are fine with me, just allow as how I want something resembling reality ... and I doubt I am completely alone.

YMMV.

Phil

quote:

ORIGINAL: JLPOWELL

Looks like I can agree woth both Razz and Phil (how odd)

Bumping the difficulty to Hard fixes much of the problem; unfortunately it then magnifies the ToF Dungeon Treasure Events System (TM Gary Gygax).

Razz gives the examples of naval units build times which I agree are pretty much OK (a little short perhaps but its a game and the actual units are a bit abstracted particularly CA units which could be DD or CL or CA or a mix.

On the other hand Phil was talking about infantry divisions etc. And his points are equally valid and have MUCH greater impact on game play. Sure a scratch unit could be raised in 6 weeks but it would be more like garrison or militia than a true division. Some things are just silly like you can build 10 inf divisions in 4 turns but can't build a corps in the same time REALLY I think George Patton could turn 3 (or 4) divisions into a Corps with a phone and five minutes, and change them right back in 30 seconds if the commanders were within shouting distance. Practically speaking perhaps a day or two but weeks SERIOUSLY??? Turning a bunch of civilians into an infantry division is a WHOLE different thing.

So perhaps create a very slow weak garrison unit perhaps upgrade able to a division, and push the times out a bit or quite a bit.

And Get RID of the magic events which might cause a CV to 'materialize' or might just cause some $$ to 'materialize' UK CV under construction PUT IT IN THE QUE... no need for an 'event' --- Just my 2000000 cents worth.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Razz

If you think there are too many PP's just bump it up the next level to Hard or Difficult.
I believe you referring to 1.0 as everyone has stated the reinforcement cost is so high in 1.01 it's hard to keep their forces at full strength.

Again allot of PP's can be used for the invasion of Norway which was left out of the release.

BB's are at 2 years
SS ~ 6 months
CA's are 1 year
CV's 1 1/2 years

quote:

ORIGINAL: aspqrz

Sure, "This game gives you control of production, allocation of resources, unit build, etc., control means choices and change. It means things are not necessarily going to be like what happened in the real war. The player can make different choices, that's why we play the game, If we can't make choices, what's the point"

However, as I have tried to point out, what it also does is give far too many PPs ... or make units far too cheap and far too quick to produce (take your pick) in ways that actually make a mockery of the actual resources available to the Germans (and everyone else, of course).

If it was just a matter of shifting around the actual resources that were available, I'd be outrageously happy ... but it's not. It creates far too many resources, at levels that simply didn't and, worse, couldn't, exist in the real world that actually existed.

Problem is, the game's whole resource system needs to be cut back massively, for all sides.

Not only are units too cheap, they produce to quickly ... a typical Division (based on US experience) took around a year and a half to work up from cadre stage + recruits to fully combat ready. In ToF it's what, a month? Six weeks?

Major surface combatants, even under wartime conditions, even using allied "mass production" techniques, took *years*. I forget the figures for all classes, but, typically, for a BB, around 2.5-3 years IIRC. Add another year "working up" the crew to combat ready status.

Really, the game should start in 1935, maybe 1937 at the latest, and the first several years should all be about producing and training the units that both sides historically started the game with, and with the rest of the pre-war unit starts "in the pipeline" ... like in Grigsby's World at War/WaW A World Divided, sort of.

That would be a good start.

Then, of course, the number of PPs needs to be reduced dramatically for all. Or the number of units you can produce needs to be limited in some way that reflects actual resources available.

Rather than a unit cap, hard coded, perhaps, if it could be done, tie specific units to be produced by specific cities, and place them in queues, with a limited number being capable of being produced simultaneously.

You could, for example, practically limit German naval production to realistic levels by, say, having only one surface naval unit slot available at a couple of the port cities, and a slightly larger number of SS slots. Luftwaffe and Armour/Mech slots should, likewise, be limited to specific cities and limited in number capable of being produced simultaneously.

Yes, I know, this is probably not doable ... but reducing the PPs massively is. And you could, at least, make (for example) German or Italian CVs and major surface combatants deliberately prohibitively expensive in terms of time and PP cost to reflect the real world constraints, and have the appearance of German pre-war laid down CV Hulls as active combatants be an event, with a huge PP hit attached (and still with a "couple of years down the track" appearance.

Some, at least, of the above should be possible.

Your fantasy scenarios are fine with me, just allow as how I want something resembling reality ... and I doubt I am completely alone.

YMMV.

Phil

quote:

ORIGINAL: aspqrz
...
Still work to be done, I guess ... maybe in Time of Annoyance (PLatinum)?

Phil


_____________________________

"Don’t you think that if I were wrong, I’d know it?"

(in reply to aspqrz)