Matrix Games

quote:

ORIGINAL: battlevonwar

I tend to think of the nightmares the Allied Navy had in WW1 with Gallipoli. It's sad that you cannot traverse the narrow passage without risk though or attempt to overpower it. :: shrugs :: I would love to pour the Italian Navy into the Atlantic at a heavy cost.

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ORIGINAL: doomtrader
It is really hard to model such small territory on this scale, so we must make some sacrifices.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rasputitsa

I don't think that Gibraltar was much of a block its self, the shore guns are not likely to stop a determined effort to pass, in a 7 day turn you could more easily pass the straits at night and submarines should have an even better chance. Apart from in its own self defence I don't think that Gibraltar as a fortification has much effect. Like any other fort hex, it shouldn't stop enemy units passing in adjacent hexes, but would be more difficult to attack, until the fort level is reduced

The effect that Gibraltar has, is the ability to call down air and naval forces on an enemy, but only if those forces are available. Without air and naval forces, Gibraltar is ineffective emphasis added J.

If there are no naval, or air, units present, or in adjacent sea zones, Gibraltar is just another fort. With either air, or naval, units present there could be a combat bonus, since detection (apart from submarines) is almost assured and reaction time for Gibraltar based units is very short. Air units can make many more attacks, with home base so close, for refuelling and rearming, naval operations are simplified.

I any condition submarines should be able to pass the straits, but with a higher detection probability, because the area to be searched, or to hide in, is so limited.

quote:

ORIGINAL: aspqrz

No nets across the Gibraltar/Ceuta straits. Too wide, for a start. The real problem for submarines is that the tidal race is so strong ... even when it's in the right direction for you, it is so strong as to overpower the submarine's engines, making the traverse of the passage very dodgy.

According to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strait_of_Gibraltar) ...

"During the Second World War, German U-boats used the currents to pass into the Mediterranean Sea without detection, by maintaining silence with engines off. From Sept 1941 to May 1944 Germany managed to send 62 U-boats into the Mediterranean. All these boats had to navigate the British-controlled Strait of Gibraltar where 9 U-boats were sunk while attempting passage and 10 more had to break off their run due to damages. No U-boats ever made it back into the Atlantic and all were either sunk in battle or scuttled by their own crews."

That's almost a 15% outright loss rate and over 30% total loss/fail rate.

Not great odds ... for submarines, anyway.

Phil

quote:

ORIGINAL: JLPOWELL
Yea but 0% lost to coastal batteries Subs took pretty high losses anytime they went to sea the overall casualty rate for UBoat crew makes being a bomber crew on the allied side (VERY dangerous) look safe.

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ORIGINAL: aspqrz
Or putting it another way, the Rock had a 100% success rate for preventing passage by major surface combatants ... probably not because of the deployment of anti-submarine assets, either

Knives cut both ways

Phil

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rasputitsa

quote:

ORIGINAL: aspqrz
Or putting it another way, the Rock had a 100% success rate for preventing passage by major surface combatants ... probably not because of the deployment of anti-submarine assets, either

Knives cut both ways

Phil

That could be that the reputation if Gibraltar worked to dissuade attempts by surface vessels, or more likely because there was no interest, the Germans having no spare surface units for the Mediterranean and the Italians had their hands full and no interest, or strategic need, to pass into the Atlantic.

The 'Channel Dash' showed that shore defences were completely ineffective, I know the Channel is wider than the Straits, but there guns were mostly out of date and would probably not perform well against moving targets. Both the Scharnhort and the Gneisenau were damaged in the dash, by mines laid by other forces. I maintain the point made earlier, Gibraltar its self has little effect, apart from in its own defence as a fortress, as with the 'Channel Dash', it requires other forces (air and naval) to close the straits.