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RE: I was sent this WARNING.....

 
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RE: I was sent this WARNING..... - 3/19/2012 9:03:25 PM   
Frank


Posts: 1671
Joined: 9/1/2000
From: Bayern
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Starting 1939 till 1945 JG 52 shot down over 11000 allied and soviet planes, loosing 600 pilots .
Just for comparison.

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(in reply to CT Grognard)
Post #: 151
RE: I was sent this WARNING..... - 3/19/2012 9:10:35 PM   
CT Grognard

 

Posts: 693
Joined: 5/16/2010
From: Cape Town, South Africa
Status: offline
There is absolutely no substitute for combat experience, as any veteran will tell you.

Training is vital, and can make a massive difference.

But once you get out there and somebody is actively trying to kill or maim you, you better learn quick. And there are some things you can only learn in combat, and not in training.

Yes, the IJN pilots sweeped the floor with Allied pilots in the early months of the war. This was because of the massive differential in experience - IJN pilots had 1000 flight hours compared to USAAF pilots with 200-300 hours, for example.

But as soon as Allied pilots were exposed to combat - those that survived learnt the lessons that could ONLY be learnt when facing hostiles, and they adapted. Prolonged exposure to combat made the Allied pilots catch up very quickly to the Japanese pilots.

The same applies to JG 52. Most of those pilots had combat experience in the Spanish Civil War. They then flew against inexperienced Polish pilots in September 1939, and then in May 1940 British and French pilots were almost no match.

But the Battle of Britain was one of attrition that broke the back of the Luftwaffe's fighter corps. Too many experienced pilots were lost, either killed or captured when having to bail out over enemy territory.

(in reply to Frank)
Post #: 152
RE: I was sent this WARNING..... - 3/19/2012 9:11:32 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25219
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline
Your being trolled CT. Save yourself the effort. Diehl is only here for that purpose. He's never owned or played WitP in 10+ years. Fair warning.

(in reply to CT Grognard)
Post #: 153
RE: I was sent this WARNING..... - 3/19/2012 9:12:04 PM   
Erkki

 

Posts: 1158
Joined: 2/17/2010
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: Frank

Starting 1939 till 1945 JG 52 shot down over 11000 allied and soviet planes, loosing 600 pilots .
Just for comparison.


"Oh but you know, they were GERMANS, the records were probably all manufactured and propaganda!"

PS. I'm currently reading Helmut Lipfert's Diaries(Das Tagebuch des Hauptmann Lipfert). He describes the air battles(hundreds of them in this book!) in great detail. In egoism he gets close to Rüdel but at least he realized how lucky he was. On and on. Just like the other top aces.

< Message edited by Erkki -- 3/19/2012 9:13:58 PM >


_____________________________


(in reply to Frank)
Post #: 154
RE: I was sent this WARNING..... - 3/19/2012 9:14:54 PM   
JohnDillworth


Posts: 1917
Joined: 3/19/2009
Status: online
I don't think any more good can come out of this thread. Someone please lock it. If Matrix finds a problem, let us know. If it's fixed, let us know. I'm out of here. I am going to a thread where the gentlemen hang out.

_____________________________

The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it’s still on the list.

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Post #: 155
RE: I was sent this WARNING..... - 3/19/2012 9:15:46 PM   
Commander Stormwolf

 

Posts: 1620
Joined: 2/19/2008
Status: offline
quote:

There is absolutely no substitute for combat experience, as any veteran will tell you.

Training is vital, and can make a massive difference.

But once you get out there and somebody is actively trying to kill or maim you, you better learn quick. And there are some things you can only learn in combat, and not in training.


Yes. It is. Explains how 303 squadron did well in hurricanes and some RAF squadrons did badly in spitfires.

But if we were truly smart, South Africa would have never fallen to the savages..




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

"No Enemy Survives Contact with the Plan" - Commander Stormwolf

(in reply to Erkki)
Post #: 156
RE: I was sent this WARNING..... - 3/19/2012 9:18:06 PM   
Dixie


Posts: 10055
Joined: 3/10/2006
From: UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Historiker

He doesn't like Germans. Propably a dumb racist.
But who cares?


At least some of us do like Germans. I love Germans, but I couldn't eat a whole one.

(in reply to Historiker)
Post #: 157
RE: I was sent this WARNING..... - 3/19/2012 9:20:27 PM   
Historiker


Posts: 4738
Joined: 7/4/2007
From: Deutschland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dixie


quote:

ORIGINAL: Historiker

He doesn't like Germans. Propably a dumb racist.
But who cares?


At least some of us do like Germans. I love Germans, but I couldn't eat a whole one.

Nice
I love the fact that we don't shoot each other any more...

_____________________________

Without any doubt: I am the spawn of evil - and the Bavarian Beer Monster (BBM)!

There's only one bad word and that's taxes. If any other word is good enough for sailors; it's good enough for you. - Ron Swanson

(in reply to Dixie)
Post #: 158
RE: I was sent this WARNING..... - 3/19/2012 9:21:39 PM   
USS America


Posts: 15864
Joined: 10/28/2002
From: Apex, NC, USA
Status: offline
quote:

I made no personal attacks on you. Why do you persist in trying to label me as a racist?


CT, he persists because he is as much of a troll as there has ever been around here. He can't help his childish impulses and he's not self aware enough to even notice.

_____________________________

Mike

"Good times will set you free" - Jimmy Buffett

"They need more rum punch" - Me


Artwork by The Amazing Dixie

(in reply to CT Grognard)
Post #: 159
RE: I was sent this WARNING..... - 3/19/2012 9:23:55 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 16012
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: Commander Stormwolf

quote:

There is absolutely no substitute for combat experience, as any veteran will tell you.

Training is vital, and can make a massive difference.

But once you get out there and somebody is actively trying to kill or maim you, you better learn quick. And there are some things you can only learn in combat, and not in training.


Yes. It is. Explains how 303 squadron did well in hurricanes and some RAF squadrons did badly in spitfires.

But if we were truly smart, South Africa would have never fallen to the savages..



Warspite1

Goodness...you really are a twat aren't you?

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty - Horatio Nelson 1805.




(in reply to Commander Stormwolf)
Post #: 160
RE: I was sent this WARNING..... - 3/19/2012 9:24:07 PM   
USS America


Posts: 15864
Joined: 10/28/2002
From: Apex, NC, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Commander Stormwolf


But if we were truly smart, South Africa would have never fallen to the savages..





Go away, Troll!!!

_____________________________

Mike

"Good times will set you free" - Jimmy Buffett

"They need more rum punch" - Me


Artwork by The Amazing Dixie

(in reply to Commander Stormwolf)
Post #: 161
RE: I was sent this WARNING..... - 3/19/2012 9:27:33 PM   
Frank


Posts: 1671
Joined: 9/1/2000
From: Bayern
Status: offline
There are two ways to come along with mdiehl.
The first is to accept, that he is right in everything he says.
The second is to simply ignore him.

It is no- I repeat NO - option to try to discuss with him as he will never ever admit he might have been wrong.

_____________________________

If you like what I said love me,if you dislike what I say ignore me!

"Extra Bavaria non est vita! Et sic est vita non est ita!"


(in reply to USS America)
Post #: 162
RE: I was sent this WARNING..... - 3/19/2012 9:32:01 PM   
LoBaron


Posts: 4376
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dixie


quote:

ORIGINAL: Historiker

He doesn't like Germans. Propably a dumb racist.
But who cares?


At least some of us do like Germans. I love Germans, but I couldn't eat a whole one.


Probably still easier than the Austrian strategy. Trying to beat ´em in soccer and then labor to find excuses why
we are losing 2:6.

Builds character, but who needs character these times...


_____________________________

S**t happens in war.

All hail the superior ones!

(in reply to Dixie)
Post #: 163
RE: I was sent this WARNING..... - 3/19/2012 9:35:23 PM   
fcharton

 

Posts: 928
Joined: 10/4/2010
From: Nemours, France
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Historiker
I love the fact that we don't shoot each other any more...


Yeah, but on the other hand, it is bad for our vocabulary. We used to have scores of different words to call our neighbours, and lots of fun expressions to use in all sorts of situations. Now, Germans are just Germans, even in movies.

Francois

(in reply to Historiker)
Post #: 164
RE: I was sent this WARNING..... - 3/19/2012 9:39:57 PM   
Historiker


Posts: 4738
Joined: 7/4/2007
From: Deutschland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: fcharton


quote:

ORIGINAL: Historiker
I love the fact that we don't shoot each other any more...


Yeah, but on the other hand, it is bad for our vocabulary. We used to have scores of different words to call our neighbours, and lots of fun expressions to use in all sorts of situations. Now, Germans are just Germans, even in movies.

Francois

you can still call me boche

_____________________________

Without any doubt: I am the spawn of evil - and the Bavarian Beer Monster (BBM)!

There's only one bad word and that's taxes. If any other word is good enough for sailors; it's good enough for you. - Ron Swanson

(in reply to fcharton)
Post #: 165
RE: I was sent this WARNING..... - 3/19/2012 9:54:10 PM   
Dixie


Posts: 10055
Joined: 3/10/2006
From: UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Historiker


quote:

ORIGINAL: fcharton


quote:

ORIGINAL: Historiker
I love the fact that we don't shoot each other any more...


Yeah, but on the other hand, it is bad for our vocabulary. We used to have scores of different words to call our neighbours, and lots of fun expressions to use in all sorts of situations. Now, Germans are just Germans, even in movies.

Francois

you can still call me boche


And when you call me, you can call me Al.


(in reply to Historiker)
Post #: 166
RE: I was sent this WARNING..... - 3/19/2012 9:55:10 PM   
mdiehl

 

Posts: 5998
Joined: 10/21/2000
Status: offline
quote:

There is absolutely no substitute for combat experience, as any veteran will tell you.


Any veteran would be wrong.
quote:


Training is vital, and can make a massive difference.


Training makes all the difference. Good examples of units functioning at levels equivalent to veteran units are legion, and those examples are pretty much all extensively trained. Units that fared poorly tend to be undertrained.

quote:

And there are some things you can only learn in combat, and not in training.


That is not the premise of the US Top Gun program. In general, vis a vis air to air combat, the only thing you can learn by experience that you can't learn from training is how to escape a crippled aircraft. And, of course, how to die.

quote:

Yes, the IJN pilots sweeped the floor with Allied pilots in the early months of the war.


NO, actually, they did not. Objectively, the USN in CV vs CV engagements had two about 1.8 victories against A6Ms for each F4F shot down. The AVG had a still better score, albeit against IJAAF pilots in Oscars rather than IJN pilots in Zekes. The only areas of the Pacific where the Japanese held a substantial edge were so far out on the logistical tail that the Allies lacked secure bases. The instant the Japanese went up against logistically well supported positions, they lost. Repeatedly.

quote:

This was because of the massive differential in experience - IJN pilots had 1000 flight hours compared to USAAF pilots with 200-300 hours, for example.


That is not correct.

quote:

But as soon as Allied pilots were exposed to combat - those that survived learnt the lessons that could ONLY be learnt when facing hostiles, and they adapted. Prolonged exposure to combat made the Allied pilots catch up very quickly to the Japanese pilots.


That is also not correct.

quote:

The same applies to JG 52. Most of those pilots had combat experience in the Spanish Civil War. They then flew against inexperienced Polish pilots in September 1939, and then in May 1940 British and French pilots were almost no match.


That is true for combat vs Polish units, but then the Luftwaffe was operating both better a.c. and operating against units that were all logistically isolated. Vis a vis UK units, that is incorrect.

quote:

But the Battle of Britain was one of attrition that broke the back of the Luftwaffe's fighter corps. Too many experienced pilots were lost, either killed or captured when having to bail out over enemy territory.


Well, to be sure attrition describes the BoB. But the Germans were losing pilots and planes faster than the UK was losing them. It was not a battle in which, as you seem to believe, the UK fielded superior numbers of inferior pilots, and lost more a.c. but wore the Germans down. It was a battle in which the UK was most of the time outnumbered, but had a logistically well supported position from which they were able to inflict greater losses on the Luftwaffe than they sustained. The Germans lost about 3 a.c. for each British plane shot down during the BoB.

Logistics made the difference in most of these early war Axis victories. The Axis lost, regardless of the veteran status of their fighters, the instant they (Japanese or German) encountered ordinary non-veteran allied aircrews operating from well supported positions.

_____________________________

Show me a fellow who rejects statistical analysis a priori and I'll show you a fellow who has no knowledge of statistics.

Didn't we have this conversation already?

(in reply to Frank)
Post #: 167
RE: I was sent this WARNING..... - 3/19/2012 9:55:34 PM   
sdhundt

 

Posts: 300
Joined: 9/6/2002
From: Milwaukee, WI, USA
Status: offline
Let me wrap this post up since I think we have set a record for views and posts in the last 24 hrs.......Fist, now that I look back at a post I made many months ago regarding how ROY destroyed many of my DD's with torpedoes, it now is CLEAR how this was done...He gave all his pilots 90+ torp. exp. Many other strange results that I won't go into because there are many, many, many that were strange but I couldn't prove how or why they happened. But I learned a huge lesson about trust and I also know %99 in the forum can be trusted. THANKS again for ALL the help you all have given me and thanks for the forum members who dug into this and proved to me that I wasn't just a cry baby who for some reason kept getting his ass kicked :) I might not be as bad a player as I thought I was, Thanks to the forum.

(in reply to Historiker)
Post #: 168
RE: I was sent this WARNING..... - 3/19/2012 9:56:18 PM   
Commander Stormwolf

 

Posts: 1620
Joined: 2/19/2008
Status: offline
quote:

Goodness...you really are a twat aren't you?


Nephew of my uncle, knight of King George V

it is my noble right

.. rule Brittania

_____________________________

"No Enemy Survives Contact with the Plan" - Commander Stormwolf

(in reply to Dixie)
Post #: 169
RE: I was sent this WARNING..... - 3/19/2012 9:58:26 PM   
Commander Stormwolf

 

Posts: 1620
Joined: 2/19/2008
Status: offline


.. Brittania rule the waves

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Commander Stormwolf -- 3/20/2012 1:39:56 AM >


_____________________________

"No Enemy Survives Contact with the Plan" - Commander Stormwolf

(in reply to Commander Stormwolf)
Post #: 170
RE: I was sent this WARNING..... - 3/19/2012 10:00:14 PM   
Dixie


Posts: 10055
Joined: 3/10/2006
From: UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: sdhundt

Let me wrap this post up since I think we have set a record for views and posts in the last 24 hrs.......Fist, now that I look back at a post I made many months ago regarding how ROY destroyed many of my DD's with torpedoes, it now is CLEAR how this was done...He gave all his pilots 90+ torp. exp. Many other strange results that I won't go into because there are many, many, many that were strange but I couldn't prove how or why they happened. But I learned a huge lesson about trust and I also know %99 in the forum can be trusted. THANKS again for ALL the help you all have given me and thanks for the forum members who dug into this and proved to me that I wasn't just a cry baby who for some reason kept getting his ass kicked :) I might not be as bad a player as I thought I was, Thanks to the forum.


Keep on trying old boy! There are plenty of people out there who are trustworthy and will give you a game.

(in reply to sdhundt)
Post #: 171
RE: I was sent this WARNING..... - 3/19/2012 10:05:46 PM   
mdiehl

 

Posts: 5998
Joined: 10/21/2000
Status: offline
quote:

I made no personal attacks on you. Why do you persist in trying to label me as a racist?


I'm not. I was just wondering about your hostility to the Red Tails, or how you could conclude to "not take me seriously" based on one sentence and your, frankly distorted, interpretation of it. Since your location is South Africa, it seemed like a workable hypothesis.

quote:

What exactly do you base this claim on? I would love to see comparables?


Fewest operational losses per sortie, according to some studies, and fewest pilots lost to enemy a.c. per enemy a.c. shot down. Last one I read on this was a history of the 332 sqn.

There were probably other units that had alot more total victories in the USAAF. All the same, it would be interesting to see a systematic pilot by pilot tally of victories/mission flown for USAAF pilots in the ETO.

quote:

To answer you bluntly, is it because they were black? No, not at all.


Bueno.
quote:


Which of these two groups has the best "operational record in the USAAF"?


The 332, IIRC, based on operational losses per sortie, and # a.c. lost to enemy a.c. / number enemy a.c. shot down in the air.


< Message edited by mdiehl -- 3/19/2012 10:07:29 PM >


_____________________________

Show me a fellow who rejects statistical analysis a priori and I'll show you a fellow who has no knowledge of statistics.

Didn't we have this conversation already?

(in reply to CT Grognard)
Post #: 172
RE: I was sent this WARNING..... - 3/19/2012 10:10:50 PM   
fcharton

 

Posts: 928
Joined: 10/4/2010
From: Nemours, France
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Historiker
you can still call me boche


Judging from your pic, I'd use "frisé" (which means "curly", not sure how that came to designate the Germans)

Francois

(in reply to Historiker)
Post #: 173
RE: I was sent this WARNING..... - 3/19/2012 10:11:36 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 16012
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: mdiehl

quote:

I made no personal attacks on you. Why do you persist in trying to label me as a racist?


I'm not. I was just wondering about your hostility to the Red Tails, or how you could conclude to "not take me seriously" based on one sentence and your, frankly distorted, interpretation of it. Since your location is South Africa, it seemed like a workable hypothesis.

quote:

What exactly do you base this claim on? I would love to see comparables?


Fewest operational losses per sortie, according to some studies, and fewest pilots lost to enemy a.c. per enemy a.c. shot down. Last one I read on this was a history of the 332 sqn.

There were probably other units that had alot more total victories in the USAAF. All the same, it would be interesting to see a systematic pilot by pilot tally of victories/mission flown for USAAF pilots in the ETO.

quote:

To answer you bluntly, is it because they were black? No, not at all.


Bueno.
quote:


Which of these two groups has the best "operational record in the USAAF"?


The 332, IIRC, based on operational losses per sortie, and # a.c. lost to enemy a.c. / number enemy a.c. shot down in the air.

Warspite1

I can't believe I'm reading this rubbish

quote:

Since your location is South Africa, it seemed like a workable hypothesis.


That comment says rather a lot about how limited your intellect is....

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty - Horatio Nelson 1805.




(in reply to mdiehl)
Post #: 174
RE: I was sent this WARNING..... - 3/19/2012 10:14:44 PM   
Historiker


Posts: 4738
Joined: 7/4/2007
From: Deutschland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: fcharton

quote:

ORIGINAL: Historiker
you can still call me boche


Judging from your pic, I'd use "frisé" (which means "curly", not sure how that came to designate the Germans)

Francois

J'ai la compris.
Il y a des restes francais. Cinq ans en lycee...

_____________________________

Without any doubt: I am the spawn of evil - and the Bavarian Beer Monster (BBM)!

There's only one bad word and that's taxes. If any other word is good enough for sailors; it's good enough for you. - Ron Swanson

(in reply to fcharton)
Post #: 175
RE: I was sent this WARNING..... - 3/19/2012 10:15:35 PM   
pompack


Posts: 2506
Joined: 2/8/2004
From: University Park, Texas
Status: offline
Warspite1 lad, give it up, he's just being diehl. You have facts and logic but he is ... diehl.

Although it is kind of interesting when two trolls try to capture a thread and carry it in different directions.

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 176
RE: I was sent this WARNING..... - 3/19/2012 10:21:51 PM   
mdiehl

 

Posts: 5998
Joined: 10/21/2000
Status: offline
quote:

I can't believe I'm reading this rubbish


I can't believe you're writing it.

quote:

That comment says rather a lot about how limited your intellect is....


Meh. I've never been impressed by your commentary, and can't see any reason to change my mind given your limited understanding of the current discussion.

_____________________________

Show me a fellow who rejects statistical analysis a priori and I'll show you a fellow who has no knowledge of statistics.

Didn't we have this conversation already?

(in reply to Frank)
Post #: 177
RE: I was sent this WARNING..... - 3/19/2012 10:23:34 PM   
mdiehl

 

Posts: 5998
Joined: 10/21/2000
Status: offline
quote:

Warspite1 lad, give it up, he's just being diehl.


Meh. The facts support my claims, regardless of my last name. I realize that for you, who a person is rather than the merits of the argument are the deciding factor. I can only say, I'd rather be ME than YOU any day.

quote:

Although it is kind of interesting when two trolls try to capture a thread and carry it in different directions.


You and Warspite seem to be trying to carry it down the same gutterball trash road, so there's no "two different directions" about where the trolls are leading the thread.

< Message edited by mdiehl -- 3/19/2012 10:26:09 PM >


_____________________________

Show me a fellow who rejects statistical analysis a priori and I'll show you a fellow who has no knowledge of statistics.

Didn't we have this conversation already?

(in reply to mdiehl)
Post #: 178
RE: I was sent this WARNING..... - 3/19/2012 10:29:49 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25219
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: pompack

Warspite1 lad, give it up, he's just being diehl. You have facts and logic but he is ... diehl.

Although it is kind of interesting when two trolls try to capture a thread and carry it in different directions.


The fabric of reality might tear.

(in reply to pompack)
Post #: 179
RE: I was sent this WARNING..... - 3/19/2012 11:24:11 PM   
jetjockey


Posts: 242
Joined: 11/23/2009
Status: offline
The saddest part of this whole affair is that this "individual" has apparently sparked heated debates elsewhere on this forum concerning the validity of WITP and the game’s mechanics. Now comes the revelation that WITP can be hacked; this “individual” would probably “Troll” the boards, injecting venom in order to keep the debate alive, no doubt enjoying every moment. It is also likely that he is not alone; personally, this brings into doubt the integrity of a former (note: former) opponent of mine and his apparent miraculous leadership abilities.

None of this is good; look at what is happening on this thread.

Trolls will be Trolls. Leave them be.

If this can be fixed, good! We don’t need to know specifics, just fix it; no need to feed the Trolls.

If this can’t be fixed, so be it! We still don’t need to know specifics; see above.

I have been gaming for, well, more years than I care to count. There are many here that can say the same, and the answer has always been the same; integrity. Associate only with those you trust. The rest can, well… You get the idea.

(in reply to Nikademus)
Post #: 180
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