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RE: I was sent this WARNING.....

 
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RE: I was sent this WARNING..... - 3/19/2012 12:11:05 PM   
Historiker


Posts: 4738
Joined: 7/4/2007
From: Deutschland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Torplexed

He's cheating while playing as the Allies? What? All the material and technological advantages that accumulate over time aren't already enough?

He sortof turned himself into a legend in the forum mention above. Even with Ironman PBEM, where Japan has more CVs to count on day one, he forced Japan into capitulation within a few months. Everyone else was - of course - impressed by this.

< Message edited by Historiker -- 3/19/2012 12:55:49 PM >


_____________________________

Without any doubt: I am the spawn of evil - and the Bavarian Beer Monster (BBM)!

There's only one bad word and that's taxes. If any other word is good enough for sailors; it's good enough for you. - Ron Swanson

(in reply to Torplexed)
Post #: 61
RE: I was sent this WARNING..... - 3/19/2012 12:25:49 PM   
castor troy


Posts: 12262
Joined: 8/23/2004
From: Austria
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: seille

Steven,

Keep cool. You´ve probably read Gudi1979s thread in the german forum. We´re discussing that thing the whole afternoon.
I looked at the save-files and they are indeed VERY strange, but i´m not experienced enough with AE and especially with the allied side.
Already asked a more experienced player for help. He might look at the allied side and tell me what he thinks.

Some things made me really wonder (early november 1942), especially:

1. 24 allied air units with 90xp, most of them did not even see combat
2. he has HUNDREDs of 90exp pilots, many of them without kills or even flown missions..as far as i know pure training can´t do that
3. Lots of ground units with 99exp and 99 morale (many of them chinese). Counted 35 active units with these stats


I really hope we can figure out whats going on there.



lol, all three points are impossible to reach, either this was modded right from the start or someone figured out how to change a save, which wouldn't surprise me either nowadays

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(in reply to seille)
Post #: 62
RE: I was sent this WARNING..... - 3/19/2012 12:36:34 PM   
castor troy


Posts: 12262
Joined: 8/23/2004
From: Austria
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: sdhundt

I guess it's my FAULT for not taking notice....I just didn't think a player would go to such lengths to cheat...What's the FUN in the game if you change how powerful your troops are just to win the game...It's not a game then it's just a computer screen with events taking place and you already know the outcome...No fun in that kind of game




please tell me this Roy guy isn't also an active member on the forum here...

_____________________________


(in reply to sdhundt)
Post #: 63
RE: I was sent this WARNING..... - 3/19/2012 12:40:12 PM   
Omat


Posts: 633
Joined: 8/18/2004
Status: offline
Hello

Interessting ist for pilots that they often have a value from exactly90..and not 91 or 89. So no variance at all...If he abuse the engine I would expect some kind of variance.

But thats speculating...hopefully the devs will find some aspects...



Omat

P.S.: Thank you very much floydg and n01487477 for witptracker...this tool is so useful...

< Message edited by Omat -- 3/19/2012 12:45:46 PM >


_____________________________

"All changes, even the most longed for, have their melancholy; for what we leave behind us is part of ourselves; we must die to one life before we can enter another."
Anatole France

(in reply to castor troy)
Post #: 64
RE: I was sent this WARNING..... - 3/19/2012 12:43:04 PM   
castor troy


Posts: 12262
Joined: 8/23/2004
From: Austria
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quote:

ORIGINAL: n01487477

This seems to go beyond a bug in the editor or loophole in the code. This seems to be a manipulation of the savefile through (actually - I shouldn't say)...

As someone who has worked in IT & helped code Tracker & Tracker AE - I can only reiterate JWilkerson. AE is much more protected than witp, but no system is impregnable.

So, it isn't impossible, but I would imagine very very rare for players here to be doing this. I trust my fellow players here and will continue to do so. Don't look for "cheats under the bed" in every bad result and good play by him/her.





yeah, this has nothing to do with an exploit or bugs, just too many different cheats in different areas to come up with the explanation that he found a hole somewhere. This guy is a serious a$$hole obviously. I'm used to all those kiddies using all kinds of cheats in those mainstream games, but experiencing this here is pretty much what a poor little dork

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(in reply to n01487477)
Post #: 65
RE: I was sent this WARNING..... - 3/19/2012 12:46:19 PM   
castor troy


Posts: 12262
Joined: 8/23/2004
From: Austria
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Historiker


quote:

ORIGINAL: Torplexed

He's cheating while playing as the Allies? What? All the material and technological advantages that accumulate over time aren't already enough?

He sortof turned himself into a legend in the forum mention above. Even with Ironman PBEM, where Japan has more CVs to count on day one, he forced Japan into capitulation within a month. Everyone else was - of course - impressed by this.



but weren't those victories too surprising when ppl were experiencing them again and again and again. We are not talking about a strategic genius, he must have whiped the floor with his enemies on a tactical level with air and groundwar going absolutely crazy?

And the worst thing, a dork like this can just change his name on the forum and continue with his BS.

Do we also have something related to him on our forum? Hopefully not

< Message edited by castor troy -- 3/19/2012 12:49:06 PM >


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Post #: 66
RE: I was sent this WARNING..... - 3/19/2012 12:50:25 PM   
aztez

 

Posts: 3912
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From: Finland
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Personally very intrested to hear who is this guy or what his nickname around here!

Disgusted to hear such players exist!

(in reply to castor troy)
Post #: 67
RE: I was sent this WARNING..... - 3/19/2012 12:56:29 PM   
Historiker


Posts: 4738
Joined: 7/4/2007
From: Deutschland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy


quote:

ORIGINAL: sdhundt

I guess it's my FAULT for not taking notice....I just didn't think a player would go to such lengths to cheat...What's the FUN in the game if you change how powerful your troops are just to win the game...It's not a game then it's just a computer screen with events taking place and you already know the outcome...No fun in that kind of game




please tell me this Roy guy isn't also an active member on the forum here...

He is, I've seen him once in witp times. Though I don't know how active he is. His account is something with "roy"

_____________________________

Without any doubt: I am the spawn of evil - and the Bavarian Beer Monster (BBM)!

There's only one bad word and that's taxes. If any other word is good enough for sailors; it's good enough for you. - Ron Swanson

(in reply to castor troy)
Post #: 68
RE: I was sent this WARNING..... - 3/19/2012 1:01:13 PM   
Omat


Posts: 633
Joined: 8/18/2004
Status: offline
Hello

Very likely this guy "roy2008"

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/showprofile.asp?memid=30274

Look at the Signature and compare it with the from:


http://www.si-games.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21914&page=12
wit roy1909

Omat
quote:

ORIGINAL: Historiker

He is, I've seen him once in witp times. Though I don't know how active he is. His account is something with "roy"



_____________________________

"All changes, even the most longed for, have their melancholy; for what we leave behind us is part of ourselves; we must die to one life before we can enter another."
Anatole France

(in reply to Historiker)
Post #: 69
RE: I was sent this WARNING..... - 3/19/2012 1:07:06 PM   
sandmann

 

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sorry are me personel Translater is to work.*G*
I hope any other german nativ speaker can translate ist .


ALso ich denke ich konnte das Problem schonmal eingrenzen.
Es muss mit dem ziehe von Piloten aus dem Replacment Pool zutun haben.
Denn folgender Sachverhalt liegt zugrunde:
Sein pool ist voll mit tausendne von unausgebildeten Piloten.
was mir sagt er hat die Piloten erst entfernt und dann hat er neue gezogen aus einem der Pool´s .
Die Werte der Nachgezogenen Piloten sind nicht immer genau 90 mal auch 89 oder 91 .
Darauf komme ich weil diese Mechanik ja im Spiel zugrunde liegt.
der japse bekommt über die Jahre schlechtere Piloten der Ally immer bessere Piloten.
Heißt es mann kann es auf den Replacment Pool begrenzen denn dort ist diese Mechanik verknüpft.
JEtzt ist nur die frage wie hat er das erreicht das er 90/90 ziehen kann.
Da bin ich gerade dran , seine aussage ich habe nur die game engine benutzt läßt mich vermuten er hat entweder einen exploit innerhalb des Spiel gefunden oder ober das editor tool missbraucht.
Egal wie es ist und bleibt eine Moralische Sauerei und ist Betrug am spielpartner.
das mit den Boden einheiten erklärt sich dadurch auch net.
Was aber beim genauen hinschauen auch noch aufgefallen ist.
er hat viel zuviel nachschub zum beispiel in china weit über 200.000 tonnen.
aber setzt nur 2 staffeln zum transport aus indien ein.
da liegt also auch noch was im argen.
Hier konnte ich es zumindest soweit eingrenzen das man sagen kann es muss jederzeit überall abrufbar sein denn er hat es bisher nur da gemacht wo er unter druck lag.
Also das mit den Bodentruppen.

Ach ganz wichtig es muss auch auf japanischer seite reproduzierbar sein .
Und zwar alle drei sachen,Nachschub, Piloten und bodentruppen.
Ich bekomm den Betrüger schon lasst mir nur noch ein wenig zeit *howgh*

(in reply to Omat)
Post #: 70
RE: I was sent this WARNING..... - 3/19/2012 1:08:27 PM   
Banzan

 

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An "interesting" example from his ironman game:

12. Dezember 1941

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 184

Allied aircraft
P-35A x 8
P-40B Warhawk x 15
P-40E Warhawk x 51

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 13 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
P-40B Warhawk: 2 destroyed
P-40E Warhawk: 4 destroyed

(in reply to Omat)
Post #: 71
RE: I was sent this WARNING..... - 3/19/2012 1:10:57 PM   
Historiker


Posts: 4738
Joined: 7/4/2007
From: Deutschland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Banzan

An "interesting" example from his ironman game:

12. Dezember 1941

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 184

Allied aircraft
P-35A x 8
P-40B Warhawk x 15
P-40E Warhawk x 51

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 13 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
P-40B Warhawk: 2 destroyed
P-40E Warhawk: 4 destroyed





_____________________________

Without any doubt: I am the spawn of evil - and the Bavarian Beer Monster (BBM)!

There's only one bad word and that's taxes. If any other word is good enough for sailors; it's good enough for you. - Ron Swanson

(in reply to Banzan)
Post #: 72
RE: I was sent this WARNING..... - 3/19/2012 1:22:25 PM   
Banzan

 

Posts: 252
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From: Bremen, Germany
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Still reading, but at march 6th, he destroyed already 2397 japanese planes with only 825 allied losses. If he would play with the ironman bonus that would be ok, but against?

< Message edited by Banzan -- 3/19/2012 1:23:57 PM >

(in reply to Historiker)
Post #: 73
RE: I was sent this WARNING..... - 3/19/2012 1:37:04 PM   
zuluhour


Posts: 3089
Joined: 1/20/2011
From: Maryland
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I just checked the "score card" in my game with THINZ2, judging by the results I may be cheating in reverse!

(in reply to Banzan)
Post #: 74
RE: I was sent this WARNING..... - 3/19/2012 2:04:25 PM   
Banzan

 

Posts: 252
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From: Bremen, Germany
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I have no idea how witp is protected, but my first guess was ram editing, not modifing the savegame. But after seeing some of the screens i am not sure anymore, i guess he did more then just that. The 90 exp group pilots looked like game created pilots (mixed skills).
His opponent is trying to analyse the savegames. Only thing he noticed by now is the sheer amount of thousends of untrained pilots in the pools, like he removed all his unexperienced pilots and got the elite onces as replacment. Maybe he found a way to change the base exp of replacments pilots to 90.


< Message edited by Banzan -- 3/19/2012 2:07:50 PM >

(in reply to zuluhour)
Post #: 75
RE: I was sent this WARNING..... - 3/19/2012 2:04:26 PM   
Bullwinkle58


Posts: 8324
Joined: 2/24/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: n01487477

This seems to go beyond a bug in the editor or loophole in the code. This seems to be a manipulation of the savefile through (actually - I shouldn't say)...

As someone who has worked in IT & helped code Tracker & Tracker AE - I can only reiterate JWilkerson. AE is much more protected than witp, but no system is impregnable.



I am no great coder or a hacker of any sort, but are people focusing too much on the save file? Since the game has a H-to-H mode already and the 'odd' stats seem to focus on only a few areas such as pilot experience and Chinese supply and experience, could the EXE have been cracked and H-to-H turns put on auto-loop for only the Allied side, then the date rolled back and the turn sent to the Japanese player? Or, only certain algorithms in the EXE pulled out and isolated for looping? I know the source code is normally needed for this, but I also seen extraordinary modding going on all over the gaming world with object-oriented languages where the modders only have knowledge of variable input hooks for the methods.

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The Moose

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Post #: 76
RE: I was sent this WARNING..... - 3/19/2012 2:17:39 PM   
witp1951


Posts: 118
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From: Tennessee
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quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelm

quote:

..but made use of the game engine.


If there is indeed an exploit within the game that can manipulate the mentioned data, and it can be identified, I can try to fix it. But I can't if I don't know there is one.




I don't know if it would be helpful, but some of the savegame files from my game with Roy are on this thread:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3047690

I did not notice any of the uber pilots mentioned in the German forum, but in particular combat reports showed the 9th and 11th Indian divisions suffering heavy destroyed/disabled squads in Malaya combat. Then animations show them at full strength in Singapore kicking my ass. I thought it was FOW and the combat reports were worthless. In China he has strong Chinese troops everywhere. I thought surely some area is stripped bare, but I could not find it. Allied players always complain they have no supplies in China, but he was on the offensive.

As far as getting a player one can trust, Roy is well known on the German forum and I thought I was fortunate to get him as an opponent. He has not denied getting the results others have accused, he claims he has not cheated and any player can accomplish this.

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Dog

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Post #: 77
RE: I was sent this WARNING..... - 3/19/2012 2:21:12 PM   
Cap Mandrake

 

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Evidently the save file is encrypted but what about modification of files during turn building (i.e., when the player is entering orders)?

Then there is the Tron angle too.

I can srt of see the "fun" of hacking, but to then inflict that on another player in order to inflate one's reputation is just pitifully pathological.

I guarantee the guy has a gherkin.

(in reply to Bullwinkle58)
Post #: 78
RE: I was sent this WARNING..... - 3/19/2012 2:40:15 PM   
Banzan

 

Posts: 252
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From: Bremen, Germany
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quote:

ORIGINAL: sandmann

sorry are me personel Translater is to work.*G*
I hope any other german nativ speaker can translate ist .



Not easy to do, his post is not made in great german (too much adrenalin i guess)

I'll try my best, but i havn't translated any text in years, so please forgive me if i make too many errors



ALso ich denke ich konnte das Problem schonmal eingrenzen.
I think i could isolate the problem.

Es muss mit dem ziehe von Piloten aus dem Replacment Pool zutun haben.
It has something to do with pulling replacement pilots from the pools.

Denn folgender Sachverhalt liegt zugrunde:
Because the following facts are avaible.

Sein pool ist voll mit tausendne von unausgebildeten Piloten.
His pools are filled with thousends of untrained pilots.

was mir sagt er hat die Piloten erst entfernt und dann hat er neue gezogen aus einem der Pool´s .
What told me, he removed all pilots and pulled new pilots from one of the pools.

Die Werte der Nachgezogenen Piloten sind nicht immer genau 90 mal auch 89 oder 91 .
The stats of the pulled pilots are not allways 90, sometimes its 89 or 91.

Darauf komme ich weil diese Mechanik ja im Spiel zugrunde liegt.
I think of this because this is part is part of the game mechanic.

der japse bekommt über die Jahre schlechtere Piloten der Ally immer bessere Piloten.
The japanes (replacment) pilots get more and more bad over the years while the allied (replacment) pilots get better.

Heißt es mann kann es auf den Replacment Pool begrenzen denn dort ist diese Mechanik verknüpft.
Means, its could be isolated to the replacment pools as the mechanic is found there.

JEtzt ist nur die frage wie hat er das erreicht das er 90/90 ziehen kann.
The question is, what did he do to be able to pull the 90/90 pilots.

Da bin ich gerade dran , seine aussage ich habe nur die game engine benutzt läßt mich vermuten er hat entweder einen exploit innerhalb des Spiel gefunden oder ober das editor tool missbraucht.
I'm working on that now. His statement he only used the game engine make me guess he either found an exploit ingame or he abused the editor.

Egal wie es ist und bleibt eine Moralische Sauerei und ist Betrug am spielpartner.
No matter how, its a morally bad thing and a betray of your gameing partner.

das mit den Boden einheiten erklärt sich dadurch auch net.
But it doesn't explain the LCUs.

Was aber beim genauen hinschauen auch noch aufgefallen ist.
Something else i noticed while looking at it.

er hat viel zuviel nachschub zum beispiel in china weit über 200.000 tonnen.
He got too much supply, for expample in china more then 200k.

aber setzt nur 2 staffeln zum transport aus indien ein.
But he only uses two transport groups from india.

da liegt also auch noch was im argen.
There is something wrong, too.

Hier konnte ich es zumindest soweit eingrenzen das man sagen kann es muss jederzeit überall abrufbar sein denn er hat es bisher nur da gemacht wo er unter druck lag. Also das mit den Bodentruppen.
Here i noticed, that it must be possible to use it anywhere and anytimes. He only did it, where he got under pressure. I mean that about the LCUs.

Ach ganz wichtig es muss auch auf japanischer seite reproduzierbar sein .
Oh, and very important, it must be usable as the japanese, too.

Und zwar alle drei sachen,Nachschub, Piloten und bodentruppen.
With all three things, supplies, pilots and LCUs.

Ich bekomm den Betrüger schon lasst mir nur noch ein wenig zeit *howgh*
I'll get the cheater, just give me more time.

< Message edited by Banzan -- 3/19/2012 3:19:51 PM >

(in reply to sandmann)
Post #: 79
RE: I was sent this WARNING..... - 3/19/2012 3:04:47 PM   
Cap Mandrake

 

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Right..so you have replacement pilots, LCU experience and TO&E strength and supply.

If he was somewhow able to eliminate MacArthur from the Allied commander database then, I'm afraid, it's all over for the JFB's

< Message edited by Cap Mandrake -- 3/19/2012 3:09:06 PM >

(in reply to Banzan)
Post #: 80
RE: I was sent this WARNING..... - 3/19/2012 3:36:27 PM   
Frank


Posts: 1675
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From: Bayern
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I just found a method to change the supplies via a cheating tool.
Shall I post the way to do to michalm or shall I inform everybody here?


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Post #: 81
RE: I was sent this WARNING..... - 3/19/2012 3:39:20 PM   
USS America


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Frank

I just found a method to change the supplies via a cheating tool.
Shall I post the way to do to michalm or shall I inform everybody here?



I would recommend a PM to michaelm first. If he can address it, that would be best.

If he can't close that hole, then maybe making it common knowledge would be best. I don't know....

_____________________________

Mike

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Artwork by The Amazing Dixie

(in reply to Frank)
Post #: 82
RE: I was sent this WARNING..... - 3/19/2012 3:40:58 PM   
CT Grognard

 

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I'll try my best to translate this for you, sandmann:

"So I think I can isolate the problem for now. It must have something to do with pulling pilots from the replacement pool.

This is underlined by the following set of facts:

His pool is filled with thousands of untrained pilots, which tells me that he first removed the pilots and then he pulled new ones from one of the pools.

The values of the newly-pulled pilots are not always exactly 90, sometimes 89 or 91.

Because of this I think it is part of the game mechanics.

The Japanese over the years get worse and worse pilots and the Allies get better and better pilots.

If one can narrow it down to the replacement pool, then it must be linked to this game mechanic.

Now the question is only how he has managed to be able to pull 90/90. I'm working on it, his statement "I have only used the game engine" makes me suspect that he has either found an exploit inside the game or he has abused the editor tool.

Either way, it's a moral disgrace and cheating your opponent.

But this theory does not explain the ground units.

But what I've also realised after careful consideration is that he has too much supply, for example in China with more than 200,000 tons. But he only uses two transport squadrons from India. There's also something terribly wrong there.

Here I can at the very least narrow it down as far as saying that this must be available anywhere at any time since he has to date only done this where he was under pressure. By this I mean the ground troops.

Oh, very importantly it must be possible to reproduce this as the Japanese side, and indeed all three things, supply, pilots and ground troops.

I'll catch the cheater soon, just give me a little more time."

(in reply to sandmann)
Post #: 83
RE: I was sent this WARNING..... - 3/19/2012 3:45:04 PM   
Frank


Posts: 1675
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From: Bayern
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just done.
can you pleaase point me to the screen where i find the number of pilots in the experienced pool?

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Post #: 84
RE: I was sent this WARNING..... - 3/19/2012 3:47:40 PM   
Frank


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From: Bayern
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As a matter of fact cheating is so simple, that I have to say, wow, here are a lot of real gentlemen in this forum!

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Post #: 85
RE: I was sent this WARNING..... - 3/19/2012 3:48:46 PM   
Lomri

 

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Makes me feel bad for sdhundt who posted "Totaly absurd attack results..." here:
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2871036&mpage=1&key=�

Looks like his opponent was Roy2008 - and those bombers may have been manned by 90xp pilots.

Honestly it just shows another facet about how insidious cheating is. Folks playing against a cheater are going to see events that they deem crazy and post about it - stirring up a discussion on these results and further skewing an already skewed view on out comes (only abnormal results tend to get posted already). Further degrading discussions on balance, simulation and game play with truly aberrant results.

(in reply to Frank)
Post #: 86
RE: I was sent this WARNING..... - 3/19/2012 3:58:34 PM   
CT Grognard

 

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Cheaters should be hanged by the neck until they are dead.

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Post #: 87
RE: I was sent this WARNING..... - 3/19/2012 4:02:10 PM   
Smeulders

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lomri


Makes me feel bad for sdhundt who posted "Totaly absurd attack results..." here:
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2871036&mpage=1&key=�

Looks like his opponent was Roy2008 - and those bombers may have been manned by 90xp pilots.

Honestly it just shows another facet about how insidious cheating is. Folks playing against a cheater are going to see events that they deem crazy and post about it - stirring up a discussion on these results and further skewing an already skewed view on out comes (only abnormal results tend to get posted already). Further degrading discussions on balance, simulation and game play with truly aberrant results.


I find it interesting that Roy posted in that thread, stating that his pilots were all 85-90 exp and how this is normal for him. It's a bit strange that he is drawing attention to that himself.

(in reply to Lomri)
Post #: 88
RE: I was sent this WARNING..... - 3/19/2012 4:03:00 PM   
Frank


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From: Bayern
Status: offline
Found the pilot pools, but could not find out how to change the pilot number yet.
But taking some time I am sure it is easily possible to change the number of pilots with medium experience.


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(in reply to CT Grognard)
Post #: 89
RE: I was sent this WARNING..... - 3/19/2012 4:03:55 PM   
witpqs

 

Posts: 14519
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: USS America


quote:

ORIGINAL: Frank

I just found a method to change the supplies via a cheating tool.
Shall I post the way to do to michalm or shall I inform everybody here?



I would recommend a PM to michaelm first. If he can address it, that would be best.

If he can't close that hole, then maybe making it common knowledge would be best. I don't know....

+1

(in reply to USS America)
Post #: 90
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