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German force limit 1.01

 
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German force limit 1.01 - 3/18/2012 4:38:22 PM   
gwgardner

 

Posts: 2954
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Status: offline 		Doomtrader, please provide a breakdown of the limits on German forces, ie how many corps, how many divisions?

I have 83 corps (including those in production) and 38 divisions and the penalty just hit.
Post #: 1
RE: German force limit 1.01 - 3/18/2012 5:07:35 PM   
doomtrader


Posts: 5238
Joined: 7/22/2008
From: Poland
Status: offline 		The force limit for Germany is (IIRC) equal to 270 divisions.

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Post #: 2
RE: German force limit 1.01 - 3/18/2012 7:41:05 PM   
Swedewolf

 

Posts: 377
Joined: 1/29/2006
Status: offline 		Why is there a limit?

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RE: German force limit 1.01 - 3/18/2012 11:28:37 PM   
gwgardner

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: doomtrader

The force limit for Germany is (IIRC) equal to 270 divisions.


It's to simulate manpower limits, essentially.

Doomtrader, I need to know for 1.01 specifically how many corps, how many divisions, as you outlined for the UK earlier. I need to bring my force down.

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Post #: 4
RE: German force limit 1.01 - 3/19/2012 1:07:50 AM   
FieldOfGlory


Posts: 184
Joined: 1/13/2012
From: Utah USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: gwgardner

Doomtrader, please provide a breakdown of the limits on German forces, ie how many corps, how many divisions?

I have 83 corps (including those in production) and 38 divisions and the penalty just hit.

If I understand the other thread right 1 corps is equal to 3 Divs.

So you would have a total force equal to 287 Divisions. You are over by 17 Divisions or 5 Corps and 2 Divs. However the breakdown.

Doom should clarify if the penalty starts at 270 or after 270 though. If it starts at 270 then you are over by 18 Divisions.

You mentioned some are in production? how many are active?

< Message edited by FieldOfGlory -- 3/19/2012 1:11:19 AM >

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Post #: 5
RE: German force limit 1.01 - 3/19/2012 2:28:19 AM   
Judith57

 

Posts: 6
Joined: 3/16/2012
Status: offline 		thanks for this, very helpful

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RE: German force limit 1.01 - 3/19/2012 2:28:29 AM   
gwgardner

 

Posts: 2954
Joined: 4/7/2006
Status: offline 		The trouble is that it's not a simple matter of calculating 3xcorps and 1xdivisions. The way it's set up in 1.01 is more complex. We need to know those details. Keep in mind that 1.02 will be different.

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RE: German force limit 1.01 - 3/19/2012 8:18:24 AM   
doomtrader


Posts: 5238
Joined: 7/22/2008
From: Poland
Status: offline 		It is around 270 divisions, it will trigger randomly, so extremly it might fire couple of turns after you build up your forces.

In 1.02 it is going to calculate all types of land units, and not only the number of divisions, but it will consider their strength.

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Post #: 8
RE: German force limit 1.01 - 3/19/2012 11:38:52 AM   
gwgardner

 

Posts: 2954
Joined: 4/7/2006
Status: offline 		I brought it down to 268 and played quick through 4 turns, and the penalty was never removed.

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Post #: 9
RE: German force limit 1.01 - 3/19/2012 10:44:14 PM   
doomtrader


Posts: 5238
Joined: 7/22/2008
From: Poland
Status: offline 		it looks like you need to remove couple more divisions.

from the file:
less than 20 divisions and less than 80 corps
for each 10 corps you decrease the value you must add 30 divisions, so it will be 50 and 70, 80 and 60 and so on.

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RE: German force limit 1.01 - 4/21/2012 5:43:01 AM   
Swedewolf

 

Posts: 377
Joined: 1/29/2006
Status: offline 		I would like the option to kill of units in production in conjuction with a clear info/warning when u are close to the penelty.
As it is for me in one German Campaign I pay 400+/510 in upkeep. If its really manpower my Ss shouldent be counted as they are foreign recruits IMHO.

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Post #: 11
RE: German force limit 1.01 - 4/21/2012 6:00:23 AM   
JLPOWELL


Posts: 377
Joined: 5/5/2011
From: Pacific Time Zone
Status: offline 		Currently this is in the increasing_upkeep_cost.xml file. It is a combination of corps and divisions each has thresholds so there is no simple answer. Looks like they have a good revision in the works however. Gradually increasing upkeep based on total units will be an improvement.

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Post #: 12
RE: German force limit 1.01 - 4/27/2012 11:55:00 PM   
Cannon Cocker


Posts: 32
Joined: 11/8/2005
From: Old Dominion
Status: offline 		So, what are the approximate division limits for each country? I like the game but would prefer to spend my time fighting the enemy and not the game! It is frustrating fighting the outcomes of unwritten rules that kill game play.

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Post #: 13
RE: German force limit 1.01 - 4/28/2012 6:26:26 AM   
Rasputitsa


Posts: 1486
Joined: 6/30/2001
From: Bedfordshire UK
Status: offline 		When this was discussed in another thread, it was proposed that there could be info box warning if you came near to the force limits for each nation, which would be a better solution than having to remember a lot of statistics.

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Post #: 14
RE: German force limit 1.01 - 4/28/2012 8:42:25 AM   
JLPOWELL


Posts: 377
Joined: 5/5/2011
From: Pacific Time Zone
Status: offline 		I of course completely agree. Fortunately this is being redesigned.

The current design is pretty flawed. Worst is that it is undocumented and ONLY looks at infantry Divisions and Corps.

Without completely parsing the xml file (close to 1500 lines just for Germany) the initial German thresholds appear to be (Div/Corps):
50/50
80/40
110/30
140/20
170/10
200/0
0/70

So there are some booby traps here if the mix of corps and division is outside a range even if only by one. Add to this the 'randomization' element and this is completely opaque to the player as to what is happening or why.

Some XML for your viewing pleasure....
>>
<!--Counting German infantry - information-->
<event eventID="11601" countryID="2" visibleByPlayer="1" oneTimeChecking="1">
<title>ZID_11601_title</title>
<description>ZID_11601_desc</description>
<beginDate day="1" month="9" year="1939"/>
<condition>
<and>
<!--Random check-->
<expression>
<leftOperand method="System.GetRandomNumber" param0="1" param1="100"/>
<operator value="lessOrEqual"/>
<rightOperand constValue="10"/>
</expression>
<!--Country is active-->
<expression>
<leftOperand method="Country.IsActive" param0="2"/>
<operator value="equals"/>
<rightOperand constValue="1"/>
</expression>
<!--Country is not AI controlled-->
<expression>
<leftOperand method="Country.IsAIControlled" param0="2"/>
<operator value="equals"/>
<rightOperand constValue="0"/>
</expression>
<or>
<and>
<!--more than 50 divisions-->
<expression>
<leftOperand method="Country.GetUnitCount" param0="2" param1="0"/>
<operator value="greater"/>
<rightOperand constValue="50"/>
</expression>
<!--more than 50 corps-->
<expression>
<leftOperand method="Country.GetUnitCount" param0="2" param1="1"/>
<operator value="greater"/>
<rightOperand constValue="50"/>
</expression>
</and>
<and>
<!--more than 80 divisions-->
<expression>
<leftOperand method="Country.GetUnitCount" param0="2" param1="0"/>
<operator value="greater"/>
<rightOperand constValue="80"/>
</expression>
<!--more than 40 corps-->
<expression>
<leftOperand method="Country.GetUnitCount" param0="2" param1="1"/>
<operator value="greater"/>
<rightOperand constValue="40"/>
</expression>
</and>
<and>
<!--more than 110 divisions-->
<expression>
<leftOperand method="Country.GetUnitCount" param0="2" param1="0"/>
<operator value="greater"/>
<rightOperand constValue="110"/>
</expression>
<!--more than 30 corps-->
<expression>
<leftOperand method="Country.GetUnitCount" param0="2" param1="1"/>
<operator value="greater"/>
<rightOperand constValue="30"/>
</expression>
</and>
<and>
<!--more than 140 divisions-->
<expression>
<leftOperand method="Country.GetUnitCount" param0="2" param1="0"/>
<operator value="greater"/>
<rightOperand constValue="140"/>
</expression>
<!--more than 20 corps-->
<expression>
<leftOperand method="Country.GetUnitCount" param0="2" param1="1"/>
<operator value="greater"/>
<rightOperand constValue="20"/>
</expression>
</and>
<and>
<!--more than 170 divisions-->
<expression>
<leftOperand method="Country.GetUnitCount" param0="2" param1="0"/>
<operator value="greater"/>
<rightOperand constValue="170"/>
</expression>
<!--more than 10 corps-->
<expression>
<leftOperand method="Country.GetUnitCount" param0="2" param1="1"/>
<operator value="greater"/>
<rightOperand constValue="10"/>
</expression>
</and>
<!--more than 200 divisions-->
<expression>
<leftOperand method="Country.GetUnitCount" param0="2" param1="0"/>
<operator value="greater"/>
<rightOperand constValue="200"/>
</expression>
<!--more than 70 corps-->
<expression>
<leftOperand method="Country.GetUnitCount" param0="2" param1="1"/>
<operator value="greater"/>
<rightOperand constValue="70"/>
</expression>
</or>
<!--Flag not fired yet-->
<expression>
<leftOperand method="Flag.GetValue" param0="11601"/>
<<





quote:

ORIGINAL: Cannon Cocker

So, what are the approximate division limits for each country? I like the game but would prefer to spend my time fighting the enemy and not the game! It is frustrating fighting the outcomes of unwritten rules that kill game play.


< Message edited by JLPOWELL -- 4/28/2012 8:43:34 AM >

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Post #: 15
RE: German force limit 1.01 - 4/28/2012 8:46:43 AM   
doomtrader


Posts: 5238
Joined: 7/22/2008
From: Poland
Status: offline 		This is how does it's going to look since 1.02


Please remember this is a report, and is not calculating dynamically, but only after end of the turn.

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Post #: 16
RE: German force limit 1.01 - 4/28/2012 9:09:53 AM   
JLPOWELL


Posts: 377
Joined: 5/5/2011
From: Pacific Time Zone
Status: offline 		Doom,

Looks like a significant improvement.
I recommend the penalty for crossing the thresholds be included however. Also an some slightly less cryptic wording than 'current force size' would be useful. (experienced players will 'get it' but anyone new or not reading the forums will likely be pretty baffled.)

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Post #: 17
RE: German force limit 1.01 - 4/28/2012 5:00:00 PM   
Rasputitsa


Posts: 1486
Joined: 6/30/2001
From: Bedfordshire UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: doomtrader

This is how does it's going to look since 1.02

Please remember this is a report, and is not calculating dynamically, but only after end of the turn.


Thanks, this will help a lot, being dynamic, I hope this means that it will be a little 'fuzzy', I don't think we want the game to become just a juggling of statistics.



< Message edited by Rasputitsa -- 4/28/2012 5:04:43 PM >

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Post #: 18
RE: German force limit 1.01 - 4/28/2012 5:04:42 PM   
Razz


Posts: 2499
Joined: 10/21/2007
From: CaLiForNia
Status: offline 		That's okay for the current model, however if you add the strength of units and other types the player will not know what to do.

You could have 6 divisions at strength .25% and one corps at .50% strength and you wouldn't know how to eliminate the extra units.

A player could end up disbanding 6 divisions when all he needed to do was disband the half strength corps.

There is a much better way to handle the issue rather than a unit cap.

Besides, the AI does not know how to handle it and keeps building units even if there is a 2000 % penalty.

The AI keeps building until it has negative income. Then it no longer can reinforce units.

This leads to bad game play.

The only benefit of a unit cap is dependent upon how a human plays the game.

If they build too much then it reinforces the strategy to create Croatia and Ukraine.

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Post #: 19
RE: German force limit 1.01 - 4/28/2012 5:58:40 PM   
rogo727


Posts: 974
Joined: 7/12/2011
From: Iowa
Status: offline 		Would be nice if there was a limit on air force units as well.

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Post #: 20
RE: German force limit 1.01 - 4/29/2012 1:42:18 PM   
Cannon Cocker


Posts: 32
Joined: 11/8/2005
From: Old Dominion
Status: offline 		I concur with the "warning box" mentioned above by Rasputitsa. The warning should read something like "ground units are within XXX points of their upkeep limit and air units are xxx points within their upkeep limit," etc. That way you can see that when you buy a unit of xxx pp then you know you will go over your limit and why. That way you won’t need to keep up with the administration headache of trying to figure out how many units, full strength or less, that need to be managed.

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