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Tutorial help - 3/17/2012 6:53:07 PM   
smittyohio2

 

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Ok, I'm getting pretty frustrated trying to start off this scenario and get the assault moving towards the Steinebruck crossing. I've watched the demo tutorial, and things just don't seem to be working as they did way back when. First, I want my troops to attack along the road, and to the right of the road, avoiding the hill and the little bit of light woods to the right of it.

Is there any way to actually specify the route to take? I can't seem to place any waypoints to give my units hints, except BEFORE the reorg point. I really don't want them reorganizing right in front of the Germans.... I've tried telling them to take the quickest route, which according to the tool would be the road. But, they pretty much make a bee-line for those trees....

Also, I can't get my 51st armored to meet a schedule. I really want to get them and the 318th to start around the same time. Even if I plan the assault for 7:15 (a full hour and 15 mins after the start of the scenario) they slip the schedule. Some of the units just sit there instead of moving to the FUP.

I really want to love this game, but the tutorial scenario is just making me shut it down every time. Any detailed tips would be much appreciate... I just can't seem to get things going on schedule or using the routes I want.

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RE: Tutorial help - 3/17/2012 10:37:37 PM   
wodin


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I'm afraid since the last big patch the Tutorial is alot harder than it was pre pratch. I haven't actaully played it since then though. All I know is the videos need updating.

Hopefully someone else will chime in who knows. All I know is don't follow the tutorial vids.

Oh and I've never eever used the time to assault mechanic. I've done fine without it and whenveer I have tried to used it it always slips. One day I will read the manual with regards to the feature, I'm juts used to playing the other games in the series without it.

I'd check on the fourms for another scenario with a recent AAR and go by that instead.

< Message edited by wodin -- 3/17/2012 10:39:01 PM >


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RE: Tutorial help - 3/18/2012 4:39:08 PM   
henri51


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you should not have any problems putting any waypoints before the FUP. The FUP will be the last waypoint before the attack point (the last one). You have to keep the shift key (or is it the control?) while putting down the waypoints. As per the tutorial you should have a couple of units controlled independently, but note that if you micromanage too many units yourself, you can overload the top HQ (which represents YOU), thus slowing down everyone.

Another thing to avoid is changing orders after the offensive gets under way, because giving any order directly to a sub-unit will force the whole kaboodle up to the top AI-controlled HQ of this unit to stop and reorg all its sub-units. For example, if you are giving the assault orders to the Division HQ (in this scenario it is probably best to give orders to the Battalions), pulling any sub-unit out to face an emergency will cause a reorg of every unit in the Division, which can take over an hour as orders move up and down the chain of command, and if any of them are in combat, can lead to total chaos and loss of control. NEVER give an order to a sub-unit under AI control unless its whole AI-controlled group is in rest mode, unless you are willing to live with the delay consequences.

Henri

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RE: Tutorial help - 3/18/2012 5:16:59 PM   
Lieste

 

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Personally I find an assault by the predominantly light armour of 51 AIB to be a liability when there are unknown Anti-tank and FlaK units opposing them - especially when you add the absence of neutralisation of any of the German Regimental artillery and the effects of this on the open-topped vehicles and infantry at the culmination of their attacks...

As a preference I deploy them on the ridge near their starting position, where they can provide observation and fire support, while remaining somewhat protected by deployment into defensive positions. Also any 'halting' doesn't mess up time-tables.

Meanwhile the 35 Armored Bn and the 318 are tasked to advance along the road, and parallel, across the low ground and onto the wooded ridge beyond the river. 318 will cross the river immediately to the right of the bridge, isolating the road leading NE, while the tanks force the bridge. Mortars shoot the attacking troops into the suspected defensive positions, while the heavy artillery is used to neutralise any spotted anti-tank or artillery elements, particularly if they are seen moving or to halt their firing.

Later, once the enemy support weapons are reduced, and infantry dispersed and on the run, the lighter 51 AIB comes into it's own. I just feel that it is wasted throwing it under the combination of defensive weapons that can be massed on the crossing.

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RE: Tutorial help - 3/18/2012 7:14:18 PM   
smittyohio2

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: henri51
you should not have any problems putting any waypoints before the FUP. The FUP will be the last waypoint before the attack point (the last one). You have to keep the shift key (or is it the control?) while putting down the waypoints.


Thanks, but my problem isn't setting up move waypoints TO the reorg point, but dictating which route the units should take AFTER the reorg point. The 51st just won't go down the road to the right of the trees for me. The go left or through the trees, and are getting held up bigtime. I think I'll try Lieste's suggestion, and bypass the 51st altogether just to see if I can get the attack going, and then try some other scenarios.

Thanks!

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RE: Tutorial help - 3/18/2012 10:48:12 PM   
henri51


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The tutorial videos give detailed instructions for carrying out taking the bridge and the first couple of objectives o the other side without the 35th Armored which serves as a reserve in the initial assault. Of course other approaches are also possible. The forces defending the bridge are no match for even one of the two mostly infantry battalions assaulting the bridge, but one must prevent the STUG unit on the other side from coming to the rescue. The videos show how this can be done by stationing a detached armor unit on the hill overlooking the other side of the bridge and plastering the STUGs with tank fire supported by the heavy artillery as they approach.Timing is required to make sure that the armor does not arrive on the hill too early and gets involved in the bridge battles instead of with the STUGs.

The videos come with the game and are also available on the Panther Games web site.

henri

< Message edited by henri51 -- 3/18/2012 10:51:37 PM >

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RE: Tutorial help - 3/19/2012 12:05:48 AM   
smittyohio2

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: henri51

The tutorial videos give detailed instructions for carrying out taking the bridge and the first couple of objectives o the other side without the 35th Armored which serves as a reserve in the initial assault. Of course other approaches are also possible. The forces defending the bridge are no match for even one of the two mostly infantry battalions assaulting the bridge, but one must prevent the STUG unit on the other side from coming to the rescue. The videos show how this can be done by stationing a detached armor unit on the hill overlooking the other side of the bridge and plastering the STUGs with tank fire supported by the heavy artillery as they approach.Timing is required to make sure that the armor does not arrive on the hill too early and gets involved in the bridge battles instead of with the STUGs.

The videos come with the game and are also available on the Panther Games web site.

henri


Thanks, I've watched the videos, and I've duplicated what he did *exactly*. The game doesn't match the demo anymore, from a difficulty standpoint. I've even switched sides and done next to nothing as the Germans, and held off the attackers for more than a day at the first bridge. It just seems that the attackers are extremely hesitant to push an attack through in the face of fire. Please try the tutorial scenario and see what you think. I mean, I get that I don't fully understand all the nuances of the game, but it is so hands off that it's frustrating when your troops are such panzies and shrink back at the first sign of trouble. I've had tank units sitting back WITH NO FIRE AT THEM doing nothing. I checked their threat... nothing. Just sitting there while 1, maybe 2 of their peer units moves forward. And they were NOT in the read guard role or anything. I dunno, maybe the last couple of patches have really beefed up the defense or something, but I'm just not gettin' the love for this game at the moment.

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RE: Tutorial help - 3/19/2012 2:26:55 AM   
Judith57

 

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thanks for sharing..

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RE: Tutorial help - 3/19/2012 8:04:16 AM   
Ramses


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quote:


It just seems that the attackers are extremely hesitant to push an attack through in the face of fire. I mean, I get that I don't fully understand all the nuances of the game, but it is so hands off that it's frustrating when your troops are such panzies and shrink back at the first sign of trouble.



I have the same idea.....not persistent in attacks, far from it.

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RE: Tutorial help - 3/19/2012 1:14:08 PM   
Lieste

 

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I am seeing persistent attacks - but you have to husband resources and apply them with urgency at the right moments - merely applying strength against strength won't achieve as much as you'd hope...

As an example of the possible - note this is (slightly) before scenario end, and Peiper and the Rump of 12 VGD have been annihilated.






Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Lieste -- 3/19/2012 1:16:53 PM >

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RE: Tutorial help - 3/19/2012 1:16:51 PM   
Lieste

 

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Here is the map with indication of location nature and time of unit demise.






Attachment (1)

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RE: Tutorial help - 3/19/2012 8:38:35 PM   
phoenix

 

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How do you do that Lieste? The detail on the map and in the sidebar?

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RE: Tutorial help - 3/19/2012 8:52:23 PM   
phoenix

 

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I wonder what you're doing smittyohio2....maybe following the tutorial too closely (which is understandable, as that's what it's for....). But I just had a shot at it and - like Wodin - didn't bother with timing co-ordinated attacks etc. I just gave the simplest orders. 1. 51st to the ridgeline with a defend order. 2. 35 to attack the bridge objective (an Attack order, FUP placed right where they start, 'secure crossing checked, plus max aggro, no rest, fastest, quickest), ditto the 318, with no attempt to co-ordinate the 35th and 318. They ended up as in the pic below by 10.40ish, which I was happy with. They certainly pushed the attack on, through bombardment etc - they persisted. Seemed like good progress.




Attachment (1)

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RE: Tutorial help - 3/19/2012 10:03:07 PM   
Lieste

 

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Phoenix, that is Photoshop.. lots of text layers with a layer effect copied to it (internal and external glows IIRC - makes it easier to read regardless of background).

I selected each cross in game (with the fate of the unit) and added this to the image by hand.

Note that St Vith was in my hands before 48th VG Rgt even arrived there, and several of these units were lost within a few hours of entry. Also that I have made a real effort to keep unit boundaries consistent with the main attack direction(s), with echelon units to their rear, rather than on their flank with an uncertain routeing. I lost contact with 12 VGD HQ, and it briefly interrupted control of Steinbruck before the pursuing elements of 8th Bn arrived to pin it against 4th AD HQ defending.

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RE: Tutorial help - 3/19/2012 10:44:04 PM   
Ramses


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quote:

maybe following the tutorial too closely (which is understandable, as that's what it's for....)


The tutorial movies for me have a Bob Ross kind of feel to them. Although I have no talent whatsoever in painting or drawing, watching his video's always made me feel like "I can do this". Same goes for the 'tut' video's, maybe trying to do too much, maybe a lack of talent.

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RE: Tutorial help - 3/19/2012 10:59:13 PM   
wodin


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As I said before the vidoes are out dated after the last big patch.

Try a different scenario that has a recent AAR and follow it. A great way to learn. Or just read alot of AAR's.

< Message edited by wodin -- 3/19/2012 11:00:58 PM >


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RE: Tutorial help - 3/20/2012 12:18:32 AM   
smittyohio2

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: phoenix

I wonder what you're doing smittyohio2....maybe following the tutorial too closely (which is understandable, as that's what it's for....). But I just had a shot at it and - like Wodin - didn't bother with timing co-ordinated attacks etc. I just gave the simplest orders. 1. 51st to the ridgeline with a defend order. 2. 35 to attack the bridge objective (an Attack order, FUP placed right where they start, 'secure crossing checked, plus max aggro, no rest, fastest, quickest), ditto the 318, with no attempt to co-ordinate the 35th and 318. They ended up as in the pic below by 10.40ish, which I was happy with. They certainly pushed the attack on, through bombardment etc - they persisted. Seemed like good progress.



I wish I knew.... I'll try the strategy you did above. I usually hold either the 51st or 35th in reserve, waiting until I've secured the crossing so that they can move on and advance on Lommersweiler. But I never really get that far, because my troops just get help up by the first shots fired against them.

Wodin, I did try out the Hofen scenario, and it did go somewhat better (sometimes)... I tried sending the 2 southernmost battalions to take Hofen, and use the northermost one to either attack from the north or cut off reinforcements. I still get help up quite a bit when artillery comes down on any of the infantry, or even a lone until opens up on them. It just paralyzes them. I suspect there are 2 things I'm missing.. I don't generally tell them to move "fastest", and maybe I'm not hitting the likely hiding spots fast enough with artillery. How long before a move do you guys normally start a barrage, and for how long?

Thanks!

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RE: Tutorial help - 3/20/2012 12:53:16 AM   
smittyohio2

 

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Ok, I see one questionable thing already... I *clearly* chose "quickest" route for the 35th and 318th, which using the tools shows that I will advance to the right of the pine forest, and along the road. However, when my troops start their advance, once again they are getting clogged up on the LEFT of the trees. I click on their HQs and check their assault task, and it's been changed to SHORTEST????? What gives? I even re-did the attack to double check myself. Same thing... Is that supposed to happen? I am using the latest patch, according to my updater.

< Message edited by smittyohio2 -- 3/20/2012 12:56:03 AM >

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RE: Tutorial help - 3/20/2012 1:40:53 AM   
Lieste

 

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I think the actual assault is always(?) shortest - you can modify the behaviour on the approach march to the FUP to use the other methods though.

If you want to approach to the right of the woods, it should be sufficient to form up on the ridge to the NE of the starting position of 318 Inf and then attack parallel to the road. I use this attack to clear the infantry on the slope and to 'discover' and observe mortar fire on the company on the road and treeline on their extreme left. This is hit with mortars and then the 35 Arm Bn while 51 AI and the artillery suppress the remaining infantry and neutralise the support weapons.
That this can be very effective is seen from the above AAR screens (note how few casualties are from artillery firing indirectly (much of the Apers and AArm fire was actually from artillery attempting to defend itself firing over open sights, which goes part way to explaining the poor showing apparent in the bombardment totals - but in each case, routing or destroying the artillery in the initial ground attacks helped immensely, and his artillery couldn't fire while displacing from my rapid advances)

While this is towards one extreme of effectiveness in this scenario I have only had one run-through that I'd characterise as a failure - one where the 48th Bn joined in the defense of Lommersweiler and Breitfeld and it took until the commitment of CCR to force the route north... the end result was a minor victory, but I was almost as badly mauled as Peiper in the confused melee that followed.
An average has similar success in taking and holding ground as the posted image, but fails to destroy most of Peiper's force, with correspondingly higher casualties (though moderated by not pressing my troops as hard while tired...)

< Message edited by Lieste -- 3/20/2012 1:44:22 AM >

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RE: Tutorial help - 3/20/2012 11:08:18 PM   
phoenix

 

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Wouldn't worry what route they take, as long as they're where you want them on time. Let them decide how they attack - that's meant to be the beauty of this game. You don't have to generally control arty and do your own manual counter-fire either - the AI will do that for you and I think does it quite effectively - you can do it better, no doubt, but you don't need to in many scenarios, not in this one and not in Hofen (imho). I often use direct control arty to break up an enemy advance. The arty is very effective against infantry out int he open, I've found (including your own - ref the Hofen scenario). In Hofen you can occupy Hfn sth just by giving the bottom Bn (is it the 1-751 - I don't recall?) a Move order, with 'attacks' checked (or not, actually - it doesn't make much diff) set to fastest quickest no rest, shift click on the red route into the objective, then the objective and they will slide between the enemy lines no probs before first light and before the enemy arty comes down.

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RE: Tutorial help - 4/7/2012 10:34:19 AM   
Fascist Dog


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Heh! I've watched all the tutorial vids, but most of my time since purchasing the game yesterday has been gaining 'hands-on' experience actually playing the tutorial mission. Boy, do I suck! I've fought the Phase 1 battle for Steinebruck about 6-8 times in the last 24 hours and it's a really intense fight, far more than the vids lead me to believe. However, it appears that's because of the patch. I've yet to capture Lommersweiler on Day 1 though.

< Message edited by Fascist Dog -- 4/7/2012 10:35:43 AM >

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RE: Tutorial help - 4/7/2012 10:51:40 AM   
Ramses


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fascist Dog

Heh! I've watched all the tutorial vids, but most of my time since purchasing the game yesterday has been gaining 'hands-on' experience actually playing the tutorial mission. Boy, do I suck! I've fought the Phase 1 battle for Steinebruck about 6-8 times in the last 24 hours and it's a really intense fight, far more than the vids lead me to believe. However, it appears that's because of the patch. I've yet to capture Lommersweiler on Day 1 though.


Although I am not in the position to give advice because I am new to the game myself, I did find that a heavy dose of artillery goes a long way in tilting the battle in your favour. Plaster 'em!!

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RE: Tutorial help - 4/7/2012 1:20:06 PM   
Lieste

 

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Also, although Lommersweiler is the second phase objective, you only need to solidly secure Steinbruck, and have sufficient force to accomplish Lommersweiler eventually... the remainder can be used to bypass and get further towards Sankt Vith or Breitfeld. Once you can isolate engaged units from supply it doesn't take long for their efficiency and combat power to collapse. Be aware that if it takes too long and you fail to block the routes to Lommersweiler, you will probably find that 27th VG Rgt is relieved by elements of 48th VG*.

Sometimes defending in/near the objective is a better use of limited combat strength than attacking to clear it. Given sufficient time/space the enemy may decide to counter-attack or retreat. Both of which give excellent opportunities for supporting armour or artillery to defeat his troops while they are in the open - stubborn heavy attacks may give a stubborn dug-in defense... While doing this doesn't give you the objective location (and it's points) it does deny control to the enemy. Developing the attack uses these 'close-in' troops as an anvil, with a small number of additional troops attacking from another direction (and lots of artillery) as a hammer. Final clearance of the area can also use the first group ~ but you should avoid attempting to assault from intimate contact with large bodies of troops as the results are often not what is expected.

Movement objectives should be fairly bold, but attacks should rather be given limited objectives... biting and holding. If in doubt, use your motorised forces "elsewhere" - he can't keep up with your much more flexible forces, and they can cause trouble for HQ/Supply/Artillery that would otherwise be supporting the front-line. A fairly weak attack with support will be successful most of the time against troops with low supply, no coherent orders and no support fires.

*If he want's to make FESTUNG LOMMERSWEILER, let him - it makes him incapable of influencing anything else until day 3... while you can clear/occupy the remainder of the map. The only essential terrain is Steinbruck - every single barrel of fuel, bullet and bean has to come across that bridge... I find that deploying the artillery just to the south of the river so that minimum range includes the approaches to Steinbruck aids unexpected or unpleasant surprises. The actual bridge can be secured using another artillery formation - hidden in the valley, he has to come out of the buildings and his trenches to attack, exposing him to direct fires from the garrison, and direct and indirect fires from the other artillery battalions, plus direct fires from the friendly ground forces dug-in in the outskirts of the village.

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RE: Tutorial help - 4/12/2012 3:34:38 AM   
Fascist Dog


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I decided to switch to something a bit more manageable that the Tutorial to learn the ropes. So I've played 'Hofen Ho-Down' a couple of times over the last two days as the German side. What a fantastic little scenario that one is. No bonuses for the Human player, Realistic Orders delay. First playthrough was an utter disaster. Total Defeat - firing squad for me. I didn't even manage to contest the two Hofen VP objectives so the US side really racked up the points. I couldn't get into Monschau either. But I did manage to contest it for most of the scenario. Second time through, I did a lot better. I got the I./751 into Hofen south without a shot being fired. Hofen North was a much tougher nut to crack and I was never really able to capture it although I did contest it throughout the battle. I also had much better luck getting into Monschau and succeeded in clearing the US out of the town itself but not the objective circle. In the end, I got a Marginal Defeat which seemed like a good result to me. After all, I wouldn't expect to get a win in a well designed scenario with my current skill-level.

I learned more from these two playthroughs than I did from playing the Tutorial mission. probably because it's smaller and more focussed. I think I've got a handle on the bare bones now and I attempted to cross-attach the 326 Fusiliers to the I./753 to make the attack on Monschau more effective. I'm just about to fire it up, this time with the German Help. I want to see how those King Tigers affect the mission.

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RE: Tutorial help - 4/12/2012 4:15:57 AM   
simovitch


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fascist Dog

I'm just about to fire it up, this time with the German Help. I want to see how those King Tigers affect the mission.

I think they are Jagdtigers with the 128mm cannon. Try to keep them away from the thick of it, use them as mobile artillery. Use similar tactics with your organic assault guns. And welcome to the community.


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RE: Tutorial help - 4/12/2012 5:16:17 AM   
Fascist Dog


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Jagdtigers they are. Ten of them! Great stuff. I like to play around with the real heavies from time to time. I managed to get a Marginal Victory this time around. I made Hofen my focus for Day 1. All three Battalions started south of the river and so I sent two at Hofen North and one at Hofen South. I managed to secure both later in the day after some heavy fighting. On Day 2, I secured Monschau, again after some very heavy fighting. I made a pincer attack with one Battalion from Hofen attacking from the south with the Fusiliers and the II./751 reinforcement battalion from the north west. I made a terrible mistake with the reinforcements and sent them on a long march through the night and exhausted them. They didn't contribute much to the mission other than defend Monschau. On Day 3, I went after Mutznich but ran out of time before anybody could get there. as stated earlier, I ended with a Marginal Victory, which I was happy with. I wasn't really very aggressive from Day 2 onwards and perhaps should have tried attacking Mutznich and Kalterherberg earlier. But I'm still learning the ropes, and the AI seems to be really good too. It did a good job of infiltrating the Hofen North and South objectives during the night of Day1/2 depriving me of exclusive control for a few hours on Day 2.

A lot of experience for me to digest from this before I take on something a bit bigger and more challenging. I think I'll try the 'Hell on Wheels' mission as the Allies for my next mission.

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