Air combat

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CT Grognard
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Air combat

Post by CT Grognard »

There have been a lot of discussions lately regarding the air model in WITP-AE, people complaining about the model breaking down when you have large numbers of aircraft, but have a look at this crazy result, it even seems to be borked for small numbers!

How on earth did my 15 Hellcats not manage to shoot down one single, solitary A6M5c???? BORKED in favour of Japan!

[font="Courier New"]AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Jun 24, 44
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Iwo-jima , at 108,77

Weather in hex: Light cloud

Raid spotted at 17 NM, estimated altitude 33,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 5 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5c Zero x 1



Allied aircraft
F6F-3 Hellcat x 15


No Japanese losses

No Allied losses



Aircraft Attacking:
15 x F6F-3 Hellcat sweeping at 30000 feet

CAP engaged:
Yokosuka Ku-3 with A6M5c Zero (1 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
1 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 20000
Raid is overhead[/font]
CT Grognard
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RE: Air combat

Post by CT Grognard »

They did not even damage the Zero! Not a single hit!
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Puhis
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RE: Air combat

Post by Puhis »

Piloted by S.Sakai, I presume?
Itdepends
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RE: Air combat

Post by Itdepends »

I've seen that before where the defending CAP or attacking sweep had only 1 or 2 planes. I rationale it with a Sir Robin on the part of the 1 or 2 plane unit.
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Reg
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RE: Air combat

Post by Reg »


The sky is a big place when you are on your own!!

Maybe they didn't even make contact....

Cheers,
Reg.

(One day I will learn to spell - or check before posting....)
Uh oh, Firefox has a spell checker!! What excuse can I use now!!!
CT Grognard
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RE: Air combat

Post by CT Grognard »

Yes!
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LoBaron
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RE: Air combat

Post by LoBaron »

ORIGINAL: Reg


The sky is a big place when you are on your own!!

Maybe they didn't even make contact....


Oh they did make contact, the F6F-3 pilots wasted a whole lot of ammo on the lone Zero.
I guess the def skill of the IJN pilot was extremely high... [;)]
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CT Grognard
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RE: Air combat

Post by CT Grognard »

The Japanese pilot in question, Sakai, S., has 95 Exp and Def 99.

Go figure. [:-]
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Puhis
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RE: Air combat

Post by Puhis »

On 24 June 1944, Sakai approached a formation of 15 U.S. Navy Grumman F6F Hellcat fighters which he mistakenly assumed were friendly Japanese aircraft. In a chase that has become legendary, Sakai demonstrated his skill and experience. Despite his loss of one eye and facing superior enemy aircraft, Sakai eluded attacks by the Hellcats for more than 20 minutes, returning to his airfield untouched.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabur%C5%8 ... and_Return
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Sardaukar
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RE: Air combat

Post by Sardaukar »

IIRC, they didn't achieve a single bullet hit on his plane. [8D]
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Puhis
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RE: Air combat

Post by Puhis »

If that story is true, then reality must be broken.
CT Grognard
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RE: Air combat

Post by CT Grognard »

Reality is BROKEN!
Commander Stormwolf
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RE: Air combat

Post by Commander Stormwolf »

Pilot exp is a big part of the puzzle...
a good pilot who can immelman and split-s
will avoid getting hit

pilot who sits there in panic will get hit plenty
"No Enemy Survives Contact with the Plan" - Commander Stormwolf
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Shark7
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RE: Air combat

Post by Shark7 »

Well Sakai, Saburo was one of the best of the Japanese Aces.

In WiTP:AE....his inferior aircraft would have doomed him. In real life his skill, experience and determination saved him.

Just another way the game can't emulate real life.
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crsutton
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RE: Air combat

Post by crsutton »

Well, I think the point is that in a obsolete plane an excellent pilot has a chance to survive. However, that plane does not present much of a threat to a superior plane-even if piloted by an average pilots if the superior plane maintains situational awareness.

With the zero in 1944 it was sort of like fielding a soccer team that can only play defence. It does not matter how good they are if they can't score then they will lose sooner or later. This is a simplistic analogy, but you get my drift.
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Chickenboy
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RE: Air combat

Post by Chickenboy »

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

IIRC, they didn't achieve a single bullet hit on his plane. [8D]
Eh? They hit his plane. He was shot through the cockpit, with the bullet narrowly missing braining him.

Ah- you must be referring to a different engagement, not the one in which he was wounded. Never mind. [:)]
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LoBaron
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RE: Air combat

Post by LoBaron »

ORIGINAL: Shark7

Well Sakai, Saburo was one of the best of the Japanese Aces.

In WiTP:AE....his inferior aircraft would have doomed him. In real life his skill, experience and determination saved him.

Just another way the game can't emulate real life.

It was not skill. Not alone, and not as a primary attribute.
Saburo Sakai was one of those guys in WWII who combined high skill with an unbelievable, immense, ammount of luck. Such guys
were few on the side of Axis powers, because they usually needed to luck out several times in very critical situations
to be able to survive the war.

Erich "Bubi" Hartmann is another good example. The top scoring ace of all times, 350 kills on the list. Many guys as good as himself fell
to their death after few combat missions. Hartmann had his first encounter with death in March ´42, before he even shot down his first
enemy fighter:
"I was showing off, buzzing the airfield and was sentenced to house arrest. Ironically my roommate flew the same aircraft I had
been in and it developed a technical problem, and he was killed in the crash. That was ironic."


To get this clear: had it been Hartmann in this plane, no person alive in the 21st century would have ever known this guy.
He would be a number of all German pilots killed from 1939-1945.

Hartmann was shot down several times, often in situations where veterans died the same way geen pilots did, he always survived.

The same is true for Sakai. He stated himself several times - because of his mentality and Japanese codex of honour or because
it was really true I don´t know - that he personally knew pilots much more skilled than himself, who all died in the war. In inferior planes against a
numerous enemy. He caught the bullet with his name on it just inches away from death, he survived an unreal flight home, he fought successfully
against 15 Hellcats piloted by USN flyers who probably had not seen an experienced Japanese opponent in their whole life, until that very moment.

He was very very very lucky.

WitP AE displayes this well. You simply cannot choose a pilot and say: this will be a lucky pilot who will survive the war and become an ace.
Thats not how AE or reality works.
But if you go through your squads and tracom in ´45, there is a high chance you will find one or the other pilot who raked a high number
of kills and is not KIA/MIA. These pilots are the Saburo Sakais of hindsight.

[;)]
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Sardaukar
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RE: Air combat

Post by Sardaukar »

Like in my game vs. AI, Pappy Boyington was killed in Rangoon without scoring single kill...that was annoying.
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Shark7
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RE: Air combat

Post by Shark7 »

ORIGINAL: LoBaron
ORIGINAL: Shark7

Well Sakai, Saburo was one of the best of the Japanese Aces.

In WiTP:AE....his inferior aircraft would have doomed him. In real life his skill, experience and determination saved him.

Just another way the game can't emulate real life.

It was not skill. Not alone, and not as a primary attribute.
Saburo Sakai was one of those guys in WWII who combined high skill with an unbelievable, immense, ammount of luck. Such guys
were few on the side of Axis powers, because they usually needed to luck out several times in very critical situations
to be able to survive the war.

Erich "Bubi" Hartmann is another good example. The top scoring ace of all times, 350 kills on the list. Many guys as good as himself fell
to their death after few combat missions. Hartmann had his first encounter with death in March ´42, before he even shot down his first
enemy fighter:
"I was showing off, buzzing the airfield and was sentenced to house arrest. Ironically my roommate flew the same aircraft I had
been in and it developed a technical problem, and he was killed in the crash. That was ironic."


To get this clear: had it been Hartmann in this plane, no person alive in the 21st century would have ever known this guy.
He would be a number of all German pilots killed from 1939-1945.

Hartmann was shot down several times, often in situations where veterans died the same way geen pilots did, he always survived.

The same is true for Sakai. He stated himself several times - because of his mentality and Japanese codex of honour or because
it was really true I don´t know - that he personally knew pilots much more skilled than himself, who all died in the war. In inferior planes against a
numerous enemy. He caught the bullet with his name on it just inches away from death, he survived an unreal flight home, he fought successfully
against 15 Hellcats piloted by USN flyers who probably had not seen an experienced Japanese opponent in their whole life, until that very moment.

He was very very very lucky.

WitP AE displayes this well. You simply cannot choose a pilot and say: this will be a lucky pilot who will survive the war and become an ace.
Thats not how AE or reality works.
But if you go through your squads and tracom in ´45, there is a high chance you will find one or the other pilot who raked a high number
of kills and is not KIA/MIA. These pilots are the Saburo Sakais of hindsight.

[;)]

I will certainly agree that he had some luck. That is not a bad thing, but he also had something inside of him that simply wouldn't let him give up...that is what got him back to Rabual after being injured over the Solomons. Call it determination, call it tenacity...whatever you call it, Sakai (and I would bet Hartmann as well) had it in abundance.

And luck does run out. Without the skill and the determination, luck is just another factor that may or may not influence the outcome. It takes a combination.

I would present to you that there were lots of pilots that were lucky that still didn't make it home. You need the whole package to go from day 1 to the final day.
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LoBaron
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RE: Air combat

Post by LoBaron »

I think we have a disagreement on what luck means. For me luck is a factor you do not have any control over.

You may be able create a situation where you do not require - or only require a small ammount of - luck, but as soon as the
dice rolls you are helpless as an infant.

I am aware that every professional soldier needs to rely on the thought that he is master of his own fate. He needs to
believe this is the case, because the thought of not being in control is a frightening thought. It reduces the trust in personal
professionalism and training and skill.

In every military profession there is a certain percentage of determined and skilled individuals, where the individual differences in skill and
determination are smaller than the individual differences in fate. Many dead soldiers were as skilled and determined as surviving soldiers,
at least I would not attempt to compare the skill and determination of a Hans-Joachim Marseille with that of an Erich Hartmann.

The Guadalcanal story you cite on Sakai is very fitting, as I agree with you that he was probably one of very few pilots to survive such
an ordeal while remaining in control of his plane.

But there, for example, are two things which have nothing to do with determination, and both exclusively to do with luck:

First, he had absolutely no control over where the bullet would hit him. It was pure luck that it did not hit him where determination
is not a factor anymore.

And second, he lucked out on pilot selection for the IJN´s Midway adventure, where many of his friends died, and he did not
fly against odds later in the Guadalcanal campaingn where most of his other friends died - simply because he WIA´nd out of one of
the worst meatgrinders for IJN pilots.

So, if I want to nitpick I´d say with enough luck you can overcome lack of skill or determination, with skill and determination you cannot
overcome a situation where you luck runs out, at least using the definition of luck I attempted above. You can only try to minimize the situations
where you solely need to rely on luck, you wont be able to avoid those situations completely though.


So, no, those pilots who did not make it home were not lucky. If they were, they would have made it home. [;)]
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