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Pocket and kill isolated vs shatter/rout now

 
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Pocket and kill isolated vs shatter/rout now - 3/6/2012 2:20:20 AM   
olorin42

 

Posts: 58
Joined: 12/24/2007
From: Charlotte NC
Status: offline 		I see some people pocketing units then killing them the next turn (or two turns for large pockets). My question is - let's say I'm the Axis in 1941 and can pocket 30 divisions this turn. I can attack some of them this turn - so should I -

A - Pocket all 30 and wait till next turn thereby killing them while isolated/out of supply
B - Pocket them and attack some of the 30 this turn while they are not yet isolated possibly shattering or routing them.

The rationale for option B is clear - the pocket is cleared quicker and thus the units move east faster. I'm very curious to know the reasons for considering option A.
Post #: 1
RE: Pocket and kill isolated vs shatter/rout now - 3/6/2012 4:22:34 AM   
AFV


Posts: 371
Joined: 12/24/2011
From: Dallas, Texas
Status: offline 		This is a matter of opinion. In my opinion, the main goal is destruction of the Red Army, so I would opt to surround and wait to attack the next turn and get them all to surrender.
I would only attack them immediately if they were blocking my rail line or something special like that.

(in reply to olorin42)
Post #: 2
RE: Pocket and kill isolated vs shatter/rout now - 3/6/2012 8:31:52 AM   
Mehring

 

Posts: 1345
Joined: 1/25/2007
Status: offline 		My Axis opponent is using a tactic which I think specific to 1941. He has made two sizable pockets over the summer and used inf regiments and Rumanians to hold them. I have, since September, been desperate to finish their supplies and destroy them before November so most units will reform as shells. My opponent will do nothing to help me.

Upside if successful, he will face less divisions later, downside, he has, I think, wasted an opportunity to take Voronezh and Lipetsk, even Tambov in the summer and destroy more industry. I think he's been too clever.

_____________________________

“The end of democracy and the defeat of the American Revolution will occur when government falls into the hands of lending institutions and moneyed incorporations.”
¯ Thomas Jefferson

(in reply to AFV)
Post #: 3
RE: Pocket and kill isolated vs shatter/rout now - 3/6/2012 8:54:04 AM   
redmarkus4


Posts: 3918
Joined: 12/1/2007
From: 0.00
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mehring

My Axis opponent is using a tactic which I think specific to 1941. He has made two sizable pockets over the summer and used inf regiments and Rumanians to hold them. I have, since September, been desperate to finish their supplies and destroy them before November so most units will reform as shells. My opponent will do nothing to help me.

Upside if successful, he will face less divisions later, downside, he has, I think, wasted an opportunity to take Voronezh and Lipetsk, even Tambov in the summer and destroy more industry. I think he's been too clever.


That's an interesting one! Refusing to kill the enemy in order to prevent the spirits of his dead soldiers from flying east and once again taking on human form!

Yet another example of how players develop weird and wonderful exploits in response to weird and wonderful game design choices...

_____________________________

Managers read statistics and tune processes. Leaders interpret statistics and determine strategy.

(in reply to Mehring)
Post #: 4
RE: Pocket and kill isolated vs shatter/rout now - 3/6/2012 9:29:31 AM   
Mehring

 

Posts: 1345
Joined: 1/25/2007
Status: offline 		Yes, maybe the Russians need a surrender button for 1941 pockets, but I don't think this cheese will pay. I think it will have lost him the game in the long term.

_____________________________

“The end of democracy and the defeat of the American Revolution will occur when government falls into the hands of lending institutions and moneyed incorporations.”
¯ Thomas Jefferson

(in reply to redmarkus4)
Post #: 5
RE: Pocket and kill isolated vs shatter/rout now - 3/6/2012 11:26:14 AM   
delatbabel


Posts: 1140
Joined: 7/30/2006
From: Sydney, Australia
Status: offline 		The Russians are better off having their weak/low morale divisions surrender rather than rout up until Nov 1941. They come back attached to Stavka and can then be re-attached to any army/front for free. If they rout they stay attached to their armies and fronts and it's AP cost to reassign them.

Many units in the south are attached to the oversized 9th Army and it's many APs to reorganise that. Many others are attached directly to the SW front and again it's a huge AP cost to assign them to an army. Their men and materiel are little value, better off having them surrender and refilling them with better troops later.

The main thing is the trucks. If you can cost the Russians many trucks the game is yours. You want to cut off many motorised divisions to do that, but having them rout (where their trucks get smashed up or left behind) several times is often almost as good as having them surrender. Often a unit will rout losing trucks, refill with trucks, rout again losing the trucks again, and so on. So a unit that has a TOE of 1000 trucks may lose 3000 due to routing multiple times. If you're certain it's full of trucks, or if you think the Russians can get it out once it routs, then get it to surrender, otherwise there is little to be gained.


_____________________________

--
Del

(in reply to Mehring)
Post #: 6
RE: Pocket and kill isolated vs shatter/rout now - 3/6/2012 2:14:02 PM   
Flaviusx


Posts: 5747
Joined: 9/9/2009
Status: offline 		Mehring, frankly, your opponent doesn't sound like a very sporting sort. I'd be inclined to take a pass playing against somebody willing to bend the game so far.





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WitE Alpha Tester

(in reply to Mehring)
Post #: 7
RE: Pocket and kill isolated vs shatter/rout now - 3/6/2012 2:18:16 PM   
Flaviusx


Posts: 5747
Joined: 9/9/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: delatbabel

The Russians are better off having their weak/low morale divisions surrender rather than rout up until Nov 1941. They come back attached to Stavka and can then be re-attached to any army/front for free. If they rout they stay attached to their armies and fronts and it's AP cost to reassign them.

Many units in the south are attached to the oversized 9th Army and it's many APs to reorganise that. Many others are attached directly to the SW front and again it's a huge AP cost to assign them to an army. Their men and materiel are little value, better off having them surrender and refilling them with better troops later.

The main thing is the trucks. If you can cost the Russians many trucks the game is yours. You want to cut off many motorised divisions to do that, but having them rout (where their trucks get smashed up or left behind) several times is often almost as good as having them surrender. Often a unit will rout losing trucks, refill with trucks, rout again losing the trucks again, and so on. So a unit that has a TOE of 1000 trucks may lose 3000 due to routing multiple times. If you're certain it's full of trucks, or if you think the Russians can get it out once it routs, then get it to surrender, otherwise there is little to be gained.



You can avoid this to a large extent by not ever setting the motorized units to refit. When they go to unready or depleted state leave them that way. This also saves a lot of armament points, those things are armament hogs. This also increases their chances of routing right into the production cycle and getting them off the map for good.

This is also a good way to manage the swarm of brigades that arrive at the end of 1941, btw. You will almost certainly not have enough manpower or armaments to fill those out for quite some time. So just leave them in their depleted state until you want to fill them out. Or set a handful of them to refit at a time.

< Message edited by Flaviusx -- 3/6/2012 2:35:03 PM >

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(in reply to delatbabel)
Post #: 8
RE: Pocket and kill isolated vs shatter/rout now - 3/6/2012 2:45:46 PM   
Mehring

 

Posts: 1345
Joined: 1/25/2007
Status: offline 		@ Flavius Well, I hear what you're saying, but he's also the shrewdest and most innovative player I've come up against. I respect him as an opponent and bottom line, if the game shouldn't let you do it, fix the game.

< Message edited by Mehring -- 3/6/2012 2:46:59 PM >

_____________________________

“The end of democracy and the defeat of the American Revolution will occur when government falls into the hands of lending institutions and moneyed incorporations.”
¯ Thomas Jefferson

(in reply to Flaviusx)
Post #: 9
RE: Pocket and kill isolated vs shatter/rout now - 3/6/2012 2:48:42 PM   
Flaviusx


Posts: 5747
Joined: 9/9/2009
Status: offline 		I'll mention getting a surrender button in the dev forums. Although I'm a little nervous about that and wonder if that in of itself could be gamed. (Mass Soviet surrenders on turn 1 could be very attractive.)

But seriously. At some point players need to exercise some common sense and fair play. This is kind of like the 20 hex para drops in the rear. We all know this is 100% cheese. (Before anybody asks, you can be sure para rules are going to be tightened up considerably in WITW.)



< Message edited by Flaviusx -- 3/6/2012 3:07:09 PM >

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(in reply to Mehring)
Post #: 10
RE: Pocket and kill isolated vs shatter/rout now - 3/6/2012 4:05:22 PM   
pompack


Posts: 2450
Joined: 2/8/2004
From: University Park, Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mehring

My Axis opponent is using a tactic which I think specific to 1941. He has made two sizable pockets over the summer and used inf regiments and Rumanians to hold them. I have, since September, been desperate to finish their supplies and destroy them before November so most units will reform as shells. My opponent will do nothing to help me.

Upside if successful, he will face less divisions later, downside, he has, I think, wasted an opportunity to take Voronezh and Lipetsk, even Tambov in the summer and destroy more industry. I think he's been too clever.


That's an interesting one! Refusing to kill the enemy in order to prevent the spirits of his dead soldiers from flying east and once again taking on human form!

Yet another example of how players develop weird and wonderful exploits in response to weird and wonderful game design choices...


Yes but ...

To get back to the original question, the answer depends on whether you want the living bodies (not the dead spirits) of the Russian soldiers infiltrating east to be reincorporated into available manpower.

Options (Totally ignoring the cheesy strategy option)

1. Clean up the pocket immediately
a. Advance to the east resumes quickly
b. While many Soviets are killed or captured, most end up "disabled" and eventually return as manpower points

2. Surround the pocket for one turn and then clear
a. Some units tied up on pocket duty
b. Surrendered Soviets NEVER return as manpower points

While the Soviets can always use more AP, they will not (usually) win or lose based upon lack of AP. However lack of manpower in the midgame is a killer. So I always go for containing the pocket with minimal forces and then reducing it as quickly as possible on the following turns. Just my opinion.

(in reply to redmarkus4)
Post #: 11
RE: Pocket and kill isolated vs shatter/rout now - 3/6/2012 4:20:53 PM   
Farfarer

 

Posts: 661
Joined: 7/21/2004
Status: offline 		Even better, wait until November to make them surrender AND with the starvation ules supposedly fixed, you can permanently remove population. I am experimenting against the Russian AI on 119 settings to see if great damage can be done by isolating swaths, and not taking population centres until they are fully starved. Yes it sounds evil, but it is a game. Think long right hook to Onega, open a hole for the Finns to move south (but not be able to attack), and isolate everything north of Pskov - along with Bialystok and Lvov pockets. The trick will be then getting 95% of Ost Heer back to Poland or under cover to avoid one million unnecccesary casualties due to the First Winter. Not sure if Isolate/Starve and Mass withdrawal west are compatible.

(in reply to pompack)
Post #: 12
RE: Pocket and kill isolated vs shatter/rout now - 3/6/2012 6:09:17 PM   
Mehring

 

Posts: 1345
Joined: 1/25/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

I'll mention getting a surrender button in the dev forums. Although I'm a little nervous about that and wonder if that in of itself could be gamed. (Mass Soviet surrenders on turn 1 could be very attractive.)

But seriously. At some point players need to exercise some common sense and fair play. This is kind of like the 20 hex para drops in the rear. We all know this is 100% cheese. (Before anybody asks, you can be sure para rules are going to be tightened up considerably in WITW.)



Yes it is 100% cheese, like midnight divebombing. But I feel a hypocrite to complain, using my night witches to such ahistorical effect. They should be fatigue builders and morale busters, not gun park killers, I would have thought. But as is, what else can you do with them? And more directly on topic, how about all the SUs that magically escape pockets with their HQ? Ooch!

Another solution instead of the surrender button would be to leak manpower back to the pool from a porous pocket, and/or just make it possible to bust divisions and armies out when they're held in with regiments. Another might be a surrender button which, when used, treats the units as lost on the last turn of October, to prevent premature returns.


_____________________________

“The end of democracy and the defeat of the American Revolution will occur when government falls into the hands of lending institutions and moneyed incorporations.”
¯ Thomas Jefferson

(in reply to Flaviusx)
Post #: 13
RE: Pocket and kill isolated vs shatter/rout now - 3/6/2012 6:11:38 PM   
Flaviusx


Posts: 5747
Joined: 9/9/2009
Status: offline 		Honestly, I rail the U2VS factories to Minsk and let the Axis capture them. I hate the damned things.

Are you putting any fighters on night flying? Also, put some AA in Osinovets.

_____________________________

WitE Alpha Tester

(in reply to Mehring)
Post #: 14
RE: Pocket and kill isolated vs shatter/rout now - 3/6/2012 7:04:08 PM   
Mehring

 

Posts: 1345
Joined: 1/25/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Honestly, I rail the U2VS factories to Minsk and let the Axis capture them. I hate the damned things.

Are you putting any fighters on night flying? Also, put some AA in Osinovets.

Yes, I've heard of this self-destruct deviation, but night HQ bombing does reap a rich reward and given that they were a prominent part of the air war, I'd rather use them with ahistorical results than bin them all. Would love to see them increase enemy fatigue though.

I have put fighters on night flying now. Only one intercept attempt so far, with no success.

I lost Osinovets long ago, but he went for Sviritsa when I lost the other ports. I had 150 fighters standing by ready for what I thought was inevitable. It was, but it came in when my chaps were asleep. A day/night detail would be a help in the combat reports, but that's why I like playing the guy, he's full of surprises.

Edit:
Another thing I notice with AA is the regiments you create in 1941 stay virtually empty as 76mm AA are out of production and the TOE doesn't upgrade till Jan 42. Got loads of shells tho and I disbanded a load of battalions last turn.

< Message edited by Mehring -- 3/6/2012 7:09:27 PM >

_____________________________

“The end of democracy and the defeat of the American Revolution will occur when government falls into the hands of lending institutions and moneyed incorporations.”
¯ Thomas Jefferson

(in reply to Flaviusx)
Post #: 15
RE: Pocket and kill isolated vs shatter/rout now - 3/6/2012 7:10:37 PM   
olorin42

 

Posts: 58
Joined: 12/24/2007
From: Charlotte NC
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: pompack

To get back to the original question, the answer depends on whether you want the living bodies (not the dead spirits) of the Russian soldiers infiltrating east to be reincorporated into available manpower.

Options (Totally ignoring the cheesy strategy option)

1. Clean up the pocket immediately
a. Advance to the east resumes quickly
b. While many Soviets are killed or captured, most end up "disabled" and eventually return as manpower points

2. Surround the pocket for one turn and then clear
a. Some units tied up on pocket duty
b. Surrendered Soviets NEVER return as manpower points

While the Soviets can always use more AP, they will not (usually) win or lose based upon lack of AP. However lack of manpower in the midgame is a killer. So I always go for containing the pocket with minimal forces and then reducing it as quickly as possible on the following turns. Just my opinion.


Excellent feedback - right on point - thanks.

(in reply to pompack)
Post #: 16
RE: Pocket and kill isolated vs shatter/rout now - 3/6/2012 10:19:44 PM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 16881
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ, USA, Earth, Solar System
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx
Mehring, frankly, your opponent doesn't sound like a very sporting sort. I'd be inclined to take a pass playing against somebody willing to bend the game so far.

Actually, I used to be the kind of player who would do the kind of thing Mehring's opponent is doing. For the same reason. But I'm getting older, maybe a little wiser, and more inclined to help my opponent give me a better game. I love playing opponents who aren't playing cut-throat but are in it for the fun, same as me. If we share techniques and advice with each other as we play we make it a much better game overall.

Just my $0.02

EDIT: [ added the below verbage]

quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx
Honestly, I rail the U2VS factories to Minsk and let the Axis capture them. I hate the damned things.
Are you putting any fighters on night flying? Also, put some AA in Osinovets.

This is another really good reason to separate the pilot from the planes and force the player(s) to track them separately. The pilots of the U2VS planes might possibly be better used on Mig-3's, say, especially in the early turns. As for the planes themselves, maybe a player could put them on night missions for ground pounding. That way you could keep the Axis troops up at night, sapping their morale and adding to their fatigue. Plus, you could use the U2VS planes as bait for the Soviet fighters to react for.....if you know what I mean. Other than those ideas I can't think of a good reason to hold onto the U2VS planes.


< Message edited by larryfulkerson -- 3/6/2012 10:33:02 PM >

(in reply to Flaviusx)
Post #: 17
RE: Pocket and kill isolated vs shatter/rout now - 3/6/2012 10:57:36 PM   
Mehring

 

Posts: 1345
Joined: 1/25/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson
Actually, I used to be the kind of player who would do the kind of thing Mehring's opponent is doing. For the same reason. But I'm getting older, maybe a little wiser, and more inclined to help my opponent give me a better game. I love playing opponents who aren't playing cut-throat but are in it for the fun, same as me. If we share techniques and advice with each other as we play we make it a much better game overall.


I guess that's a matter of taste. I like to confer with an opponent after a game but in the thick of it, too friendly spoils the tension, for me, anyway. The cut throat's part of the fun. There are a few things I'd shy away from in a game, maybe, but these cheese strategies also test the game system and see if it works.

quote:

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson
This is another really good reason to separate the pilot from the planes and force the player(s) to track them separately.
I never really got into it but seem to remember pilots and planes are seperate in WitP. Should be same for equipment too, so experience grows as equipment gets shot away.

_____________________________

“The end of democracy and the defeat of the American Revolution will occur when government falls into the hands of lending institutions and moneyed incorporations.”
¯ Thomas Jefferson

(in reply to larryfulkerson)
Post #: 18
RE: Pocket and kill isolated vs shatter/rout now - 3/7/2012 3:38:13 AM   
gradenko_2000

 

Posts: 569
Joined: 12/27/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx
Mehring, frankly, your opponent doesn't sound like a very sporting sort. I'd be inclined to take a pass playing against somebody willing to bend the game so far.

While it might not be strictly realistic, I don't think it's that bad in the balance sense because if the German is going to maintain a prison camp, he's going to need prison guards. Those Soviets are also probably sitting on some prime railroad tracks.

(in reply to Flaviusx)
Post #: 19
RE: Pocket and kill isolated vs shatter/rout now - 3/7/2012 4:14:12 AM   
Pelton


Posts: 4355
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: delatbabel

The Russians are better off having their weak/low morale divisions surrender rather than rout up until Nov 1941. They come back attached to Stavka and can then be re-attached to any army/front for free. If they rout they stay attached to their armies and fronts and it's AP cost to reassign them.

Many units in the south are attached to the oversized 9th Army and it's many APs to reorganise that. Many others are attached directly to the SW front and again it's a huge AP cost to assign them to an army. Their men and materiel are little value, better off having them surrender and refilling them with better troops later.

The main thing is the trucks. If you can cost the Russians many trucks the game is yours. You want to cut off many motorised divisions to do that, but having them rout (where their trucks get smashed up or left behind) several times is often almost as good as having them surrender. Often a unit will rout losing trucks, refill with trucks, rout again losing the trucks again, and so on. So a unit that has a TOE of 1000 trucks may lose 3000 due to routing multiple times. If you're certain it's full of trucks, or if you think the Russians can get it out once it routs, then get it to surrender, otherwise there is little to be gained.



TDV lost 10,000's of trucks attacking during blizzard far past railheads with tanks and cav units and was able to recover by mid 42 in exchange for pocketing 50 divisions German.

The hole russian truck loss thing is vastly over rated, as is will all things russians they recover very quickly.

As long as you are driving those 10,000's of trucks through a loop hole its not an issue in the long run or lossing 80+ HVY and 80+ armament pts.

You can ignore trucks/HVY and armaments if you can pocket units.


Pelton

< Message edited by Pelton -- 3/7/2012 4:15:01 AM >

_____________________________

GHC
15 - 3 - 7

10 games ended in 41 (10-0-0)
4 games ended in 42 (4-0-2)
3 games ended in 43 (1-2-3)
1 game ended in 44 (0-1-2)

(in reply to delatbabel)
Post #: 20
RE: Pocket and kill isolated vs shatter/rout now - 3/7/2012 5:17:03 PM   
ird

 

Posts: 99
Joined: 1/5/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: pompack

quote:

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mehring

My Axis opponent is using a tactic which I think specific to 1941. He has made two sizable pockets over the summer and used inf regiments and Rumanians to hold them. I have, since September, been desperate to finish their supplies and destroy them before November so most units will reform as shells. My opponent will do nothing to help me.

Upside if successful, he will face less divisions later, downside, he has, I think, wasted an opportunity to take Voronezh and Lipetsk, even Tambov in the summer and destroy more industry. I think he's been too clever.


That's an interesting one! Refusing to kill the enemy in order to prevent the spirits of his dead soldiers from flying east and once again taking on human form!

Yet another example of how players develop weird and wonderful exploits in response to weird and wonderful game design choices...


Yes but ...

To get back to the original question, the answer depends on whether you want the living bodies (not the dead spirits) of the Russian soldiers infiltrating east to be reincorporated into available manpower.

Options (Totally ignoring the cheesy strategy option)

1. Clean up the pocket immediately
a. Advance to the east resumes quickly
b. While many Soviets are killed or captured, most end up "disabled" and eventually return as manpower points

2. Surround the pocket for one turn and then clear
a. Some units tied up on pocket duty
b. Surrendered Soviets NEVER return as manpower points

While the Soviets can always use more AP, they will not (usually) win or lose based upon lack of AP. However lack of manpower in the midgame is a killer. So I always go for containing the pocket with minimal forces and then reducing it as quickly as possible on the following turns. Just my opinion.



This is the way I usually play the game as the Axis (although I don't claim to be an expert). Reducing the Soviets manpower is paramount in 1941 in my opinion

(in reply to pompack)
Post #: 21
RE: Pocket and kill isolated vs shatter/rout now - 3/8/2012 1:56:43 AM   
usersatch


Posts: 391
Joined: 6/1/2005
Status: offline 		I can completely surround a Soviet unit, yet sometimes it routs rather than surrenders. Isn't that the point of encirclement (besides the rolling German encirclements later)? Is there a trick to guarantee surrender?

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Post #: 22
RE: Pocket and kill isolated vs shatter/rout now - 3/8/2012 2:01:30 AM   
pompack


Posts: 2450
Joined: 2/8/2004
From: University Park, Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: usersatch

I can completely surround a Soviet unit, yet sometimes it routs rather than surrenders. Isn't that the point of encirclement (besides the rolling German encirclements later)? Is there a trick to guarantee surrender?


yep, wait one turn. If it is isolated (turns red when you are displaying isolated units) it will surrender if there is no retreat hex. It will never rout out of encirclement

(in reply to usersatch)
Post #: 23
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