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Mogami-Class Aircraft Cruisers

 
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Mogami-Class Aircraft Cruisers - 3/3/2012 10:06:01 PM   
John 3rd


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Status: offline 		I was bored with no turn and turned open Jentschura's Warships of the Imperial Navy and fund the rebuilt version of the Mogami-Class. He lists them having 3x3 8" Turrets up front and 11 Aircraft for Scouting. This led me to thinking...

Wouldn't it have been interesting if the Japanese had left the Mogami's as CLs with their 15 6" guns and THEN converted them to the aircraft cruiser? The four of them with 9 6" guns, excellent speed, and 11 aircraft would make excellent CV Escorts. Be even better if you swapped out those 5" DP guns for 3.9" AA. Put them in two ship units with your CVs and life would be A OK.

Also works for continuity as you remove the after 2 turrets on each of the four CLs and then they can still be recycled onto the Yamato and Musashi.

Following the thought line out...if you don't need Tone and Chikuma for the Scout-Cruiser role then why not build them as a further refinement of the proven Atago-Class? THAT would be a fine addition as well.

Just idle thoughts from someone who is REALLY bored at the moment...


< Message edited by John 3rd -- 3/3/2012 10:07:08 PM >

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RE: Mogami-Class Aircraft Cruisers - 3/4/2012 12:45:03 AM   
nate25


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Status: offline 		Looking at my copy of Jentschura, Jung, and Mickel/Naval Inst. Press. . .

Don't you mean 3x2 8" turrets?

By the way, I'd love my Jap CAs with trips instead of doubles. That's awesome!

Or how about the Tone class CAs with 4 3x3 8" turrets forward?

Sounds like the beginnings of a great mod. . .

Thanks,
Nate

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RE: Mogami-Class Aircraft Cruisers - 3/4/2012 12:57:55 AM   
Terminus


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Status: offline 		Consider how Mikuma perished at Midway. Then consider just how much more vulnerable she'd be with 11 aircraft on board.

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RE: Mogami-Class Aircraft Cruisers - 3/4/2012 1:08:03 AM   
nate25


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Status: offline 		Same amount of torps, rebuild or not. But yeah, 8 more A/C would not help.

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RE: Mogami-Class Aircraft Cruisers - 3/4/2012 1:16:07 AM   
nate25


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Status: offline 		I guess 3 more 8" wouldn't help her stability issue either, rebuilt or not.

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RE: Mogami-Class Aircraft Cruisers - 3/4/2012 4:37:15 AM   
Shark7


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Status: online 		In the mod I've been doing, I left the Mogami's with their 15 x 6.1" configuation. They are arguably more effective this way.

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RE: Mogami-Class Aircraft Cruisers - 3/4/2012 2:22:55 PM   
John 3rd


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Status: offline 		Think its funny that the Japanese PLANNED the whole time to convert them to the bigger guns when they had actually created a pretty powerful set of CLs. There is definitely some room for Modding in this area. Was the figure for 11 Floatplanes accurate? Anyone know what they carried in real life after this conversion?

Have made a good start into the new Warships After Washington book. Nothing earthshattering in it yet but it is interesting to get the perspectives of the smaller Fleets (Italy and France) during the Treaty years.

< Message edited by John 3rd -- 3/4/2012 2:23:13 PM >

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RE: Mogami-Class Aircraft Cruisers - 3/4/2012 2:48:02 PM   
Terminus


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Status: offline 		The figure of 11 was optimistic, if nothing else than for the fact that the IJN could never assemble that many aircraft for one ship. Far as I can see, she never carried more than 7 planes.

< Message edited by Terminus -- 3/4/2012 3:07:13 PM >

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RE: Mogami-Class Aircraft Cruisers - 3/4/2012 5:33:35 PM   
Dili

 

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Status: offline 		Recovering 11 floatplanes will be no easy thing, and makes ship vulnerable to submarines. That is also the issues with other CS's.

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RE: Mogami-Class Aircraft Cruisers - 3/4/2012 5:57:30 PM   
Commander Stormwolf

 

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Status: offline 		Probably all 12 of the big CA could have been converted to carry 11 or 12 floatplanes -
and the CS were supposed to be in the yards converting to CVL right at the start of the war.. just another mistake

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RE: Mogami-Class Aircraft Cruisers - 3/4/2012 8:54:13 PM   
John 3rd


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Status: offline 		Concur.

Wondering if you go with the following:
1. Mogami's get converted to Aircraft Cruisers (retaining 3x3 6" guns) at the same time that they were 'upgunned' IRL.
2. Tone and Chikuma come in as 'normal' CAs with another pair building (as in 4th Cricle) on Dec 7th.
3. Go with the Improved Agano's we created for RA as the wartime CLs.
4. The war begins and the CS have the option to convert over to CVLs January 1, 1942 and be available by the end of 1942.

Interesting...

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RE: Mogami-Class Aircraft Cruisers - 3/5/2012 1:03:39 AM   
Terminus


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Status: offline 		Twelve-month conversion time might be a bit optimistic. 18 months, maybe.

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RE: Mogami-Class Aircraft Cruisers - 3/5/2012 6:47:35 AM   
Puhis


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Status: offline 		Historically Chitose conversion took about 11 months, Chiyoda conversion took about 10 months.

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RE: Mogami-Class Aircraft Cruisers - 3/6/2012 7:25:36 PM   
John 3rd


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Status: offline 		That is what I thought. They're coded at a year for conversion and that certainly SEEMS right to me.


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RE: Mogami-Class Aircraft Cruisers - 3/6/2012 8:57:45 PM   
JWE

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Puhis
Historically Chitose conversion took about 11 months, Chiyoda conversion took about 10 months.

Absolutely ! But then, those vessels were built with integral hangars, workshops, aviation armory, avgas tanks, etc., so maybe it wasn't quite as simple as taking a chain saw to the topsides and replacing them with a flat top, it wasn't conceptually that far off the mark.

A cruiser warship had none of that stuff and it would have taken literally years to make it realistically happen. That's why the Ise took 8 months to have two turrets pulled and a half baked seaplane flight deck and hangar installed, 'above deck'. Woof !!

I truly would forget that nonsense. Because 'non' sense is what it is (or what it isn't, or something; I hate subjunctive negatives). Anyway, I think it's not a good idea

< Message edited by JWE -- 3/6/2012 8:58:27 PM >

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RE: Mogami-Class Aircraft Cruisers - 3/6/2012 11:11:22 PM   
Commander Stormwolf

 

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Status: offline 		what is proposed is to simply remove the rear turrets from the CA, like was done on the mogami
a pretty easy task and doesn't require big materials

I would put those 8" guns as CD


...so it launch more floatplanes

maybe a waste of time but i would have done it
if i were in command in 1941

< Message edited by Commander Stormwolf -- 3/6/2012 11:30:11 PM >

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RE: Mogami-Class Aircraft Cruisers - 3/7/2012 3:33:15 PM   
John 3rd


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Status: offline 		They look pretty good to me. Am going through and playing with the editor right now.

Does anyone have differing artwork for the Mogami-Seaplane appearance?

I think having four CLs with 9-11 Floatplanes would be a HUGE addition in 1941. Change Tone and Chikuma to the next evolution in the Japanese CA and one is in serious business. The thing I like about the idea is that the Japanese player would actually start DOWN 2 CA but gain a very nice addition for the CV TF. I do so love tradeoffs!


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RE: Mogami-Class Aircraft Cruisers - 3/7/2012 4:18:08 PM   
Commander Stormwolf

 

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Well my idea for cruisers would be as follows, if I were in command starting Dec 7 1941

4 CS convert to CVL right away
12 Mogami style CA being refit to remove rear turrets
12 Kuma and Nagara class CL refit to kitikami standard

6 CA (Tone and Aoba classes) remain as they are

the new CL are never laid down to make space

----------------------------------------------------------

reasons: if i were in command, would recommend to strike RN in singers and HK
and USN in manila... and prepare a defensive battle in 1942 against USN counterattack

without hindsight, no one knows what type of warship is the best (BB, CV, or DD with torpedoes)
so would purse all 3 --> build Musashi since it's mostly done, convert the 4 CS to CVL
as soon as possible

and convert the surface warships to carry as many torpedoes as possible (14 kitikami cruisers
would have been pretty devastating in a night surface battle against the battleline from pearl harbor)





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RE: Mogami-Class Aircraft Cruisers - 3/7/2012 4:25:53 PM   
John 3rd


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Status: offline 		Wow. That is an aggressive proposal Stormwolf. Doubt if the Japanese Yards could have achieved nearly 50% of that. Interesting vision and thrust though.

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RE: Mogami-Class Aircraft Cruisers - 3/7/2012 4:35:57 PM   
Commander Stormwolf

 

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Yeah the main limiting factor is the number of slips available at shipyards -->
the new CL were just being laid down so with those cancelled it would make space for the CS conversions

there were certainly other slots since apanese never used all their slots, even for capitals ships
(could have laid down 2 more unryu since i think yokosuka and kure? (could be wrong ones)
each had an empty space that was later used to convert the BB Ise and Hyuga to the rather poor BBCV ships

CS-CV conversions would take about a year so they would not be ready for "the decisive battle"
The CA and CL refits would be pretty fast - just a matter of removing turrets or sticking on TT tubes

not saying these were the best things to do, but it's what i would have done without hindsight

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RE: Mogami-Class Aircraft Cruisers - 3/7/2012 5:03:31 PM   
John 3rd


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RE: Mogami-Class Aircraft Cruisers - 3/7/2012 5:19:30 PM   
John 3rd


Posts: 9081
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Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE

quote:

ORIGINAL: Puhis
Historically Chitose conversion took about 11 months, Chiyoda conversion took about 10 months.

Absolutely ! But then, those vessels were built with integral hangars, workshops, aviation armory, avgas tanks, etc., so maybe it wasn't quite as simple as taking a chain saw to the topsides and replacing them with a flat top, it wasn't conceptually that far off the mark.

A cruiser warship had none of that stuff and it would have taken literally years to make it realistically happen. That's why the Ise took 8 months to have two turrets pulled and a half baked seaplane flight deck and hangar installed, 'above deck'. Woof !!

I truly would forget that nonsense. Because 'non' sense is what it is (or what it isn't, or something; I hate subjunctive negatives). Anyway, I think it's not a good idea


JWE: I had not seen this Posting. How long--during the war--did the actual conversion of Mogami take?


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RE: Mogami-Class Aircraft Cruisers - 3/7/2012 5:23:35 PM   
Terminus


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Status: offline 		She went into drydock at Sasebo on September 1st, 1942 (following temporary repairs at Truk) and recommissioned on April 30th, 1943.

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RE: Mogami-Class Aircraft Cruisers - 3/7/2012 5:24:29 PM   
Terminus


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Status: offline 		What John (and I) were talking about was a full CVL conversion of the Mogami; I think there's a crossed communication wire or two here.

< Message edited by Terminus -- 3/7/2012 5:25:03 PM >

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RE: Mogami-Class Aircraft Cruisers - 3/7/2012 5:45:39 PM   
John 3rd


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Status: offline 		You cleared that up nicely. Got confussed.


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