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RE: Longtime lurker with Noob Questions

 
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RE: Longtime lurker with Noob Questions - 3/10/2012 5:23:39 PM   
Lokasenna


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From: Iowan in MD/DC
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quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

Another question I can't find in the manual.

I have a base force and was trying to unload it at Luganville. Everything is unloaded...except for a radar sub-unit. It says it can't be unloaded there - I assume it's a port size issue? How big of a port do I need?



Alberts answer is good but a bit vague. Amphib TFs are best for unloading anything, even supply, at a size 1 or smaller port. Even large guns like 155s will unload over the beaches from an amphib TF, although I believe the radar will not. The radar should unload once the port reaches level 2, IIRC. The addition of naval support increases the unloading capacity of any size port, the more nav support the better. The US has several very small dedicated nav support units (can't recall the exact names right now but they are identified by letter codes...A, B, C, D, E). These are invaluable units for unloading at level 0 or 1 ports to get your operations going there. Try to plan the inclusion of these for any operations aimed at dot bases or level 0 or 1 ports.

Nav support also increases the rearming capability of ports. There is a table in the manual (20.1.2.2)that shows the port size and port size + min nav support necessary to rearm various size armaments. You need a min size 4 port for 5" guns, min size 5 port to rearm 6" guns and a min size 6 port to rearm 8" guns. Nav support lowers the port size requirement for these.


You answered my next question too! I find myself using Amphib TFs almost exclusively as I go about building up some defenses, as typically I am transporting to bases that have port size 1 or 2... Is there a reference somewhere for how much "stuff" an Amphib TF will unload? The reference sheets thread has a table that lists how much cargo/fuel/supplies/etc. will be unloaded by each size of port.

And oh yes - the Port Service units (I think I have A-F...) are already all helping me out. I love them :D.

Thanks guys! These forums rock.

(in reply to HansBolter)
Post #: 31
RE: Longtime lurker with Noob Questions - 3/17/2012 7:54:08 AM   
Lokasenna


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Got another one.

I keep having a problem with my TFs - they like to turn right back around and go back to port, automatically disbanding. They say in red "returning to port to replenish". Except here's why I don't understand WTF this is happening: they JUST refueled and rearmed (have full ammo, full or at least green endure). Their destinations and patrol areas are well within their range.

WHY do they turn right around and go back into port and disband? I just don't get it. What am I missing? Clearly something. Highly frustrating - this has delayed my plans for 2 days so far. I shouldn't have to set "remain on station" should I?

And every time this happens it costs me PP to reassign a good surface fleet commander...

(in reply to Lokasenna)
Post #: 32
RE: Longtime lurker with Noob Questions - 3/17/2012 11:29:42 AM   
jmalter

 

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any TF, you give it a mission (destination hex), it goes there, does its thing, then RTB. unless you set it to 'remain on station'. even then, some missions (say, Bombardment) once it uses all its ammo, it'll RTB.

then if the TF is set to 'auto-disband', when it gets back to base, the TF disbands, all the ships dock & the TF commander disappears, bad cess for you.

i'm guessing, but i don't think you've got a good handle on TF orders yet.

you can set a TF to a destination, but if you don't tell it to 'remain on station', it'll go home. but if you've set it to 'remain', it'll still use some fuel, but will reach a tipping-point where it needs a minimal amount of fuel to get back to its home-port, when it hits that point it'll go back to base.

you can set a TF to a multi-hex patrol-zone, it'll follow the zone-path until it runs out of gas, then it'll go home.

sounds like you've got TFs operating way far away from home, they use a lot of fuel to get to the assigned hex, but don't have enough to stay. have you got fleet oilers (Replenishment TF) serving them? or have you neglected your logistics?

what, you didn't set the TF to 'remain on station' ? oops, you messed that up. what, you neglected to de-select 'auto-disband' ? oops again. pay the PP price, and learn from your mistakes.

(in reply to Lokasenna)
Post #: 33
RE: Longtime lurker with Noob Questions - 3/17/2012 5:16:08 PM   
Lokasenna


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But see here's the thing...

I know all those things. I know how auto-disband works and I'm not using destination but patrol. I'm not using oilers to refuel them, but they're able to stay out on patrol long enough without them and my patrols are close enough to my bases with fuel that I don't mind. They tend to run out of ammo first. I wanted them to leave Brisbane and go patrol over northwest of Darwin. And the very day they left Brisbane, they turned around. The fuel required for the mission was just over 100 (102 or 104), and the fuel the TF had was 162 or 163. They definitely didn't sail all the way around Australia and get to their patrol zone first. It's like in the first naval movement phase they sailed away, and then decided to turn around in the second phase - I found them one hex outside of port this last time.

And they were certainly NOT on auto-disband, not even after I said "Fine, you can return to port and fix whatever stupid problem you're having" - they just had the red "returning to port to replenish" showing, and then they disbanded anyway. Also, "No Auto-Disband" is the default. So why are they doing that? What causes the TF to decide it needs to go back to port to replenish even though it has plenty of fuel and is full on ammo?

(in reply to jmalter)
Post #: 34
RE: Longtime lurker with Noob Questions - 3/18/2012 12:53:58 AM   
Disco Duck

 

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delete

(in reply to Lokasenna)
Post #: 35
RE: Longtime lurker with Noob Questions - 4/2/2012 4:56:25 PM   
Lokasenna


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Alright, have played a couple more months and am back with more questions!

How long does it take the Allied airframe production to speed up? I'm at May 21, 1942 and am finding the production rate of F4F-4s and SBD-3s to be agonizingly slow.

Likewise, I do not quite understand how air unit upgrades work. The F4F unit on Enterprise is down to a meager 4 planes (I'm not really sure how they ate all of the casualties and the planes from the other 3 CVs went untouched...). They're in F4F-3A airframes, and it says they can upgrade to F4F-3. However, I have none of those available... I do have 14 F4F-4 airframes available, but I can't seem to "skip" the F4F-3 upgrade. When I click on the upgrade path line in the air unit info screen, it says that future upgrades include the F4F-4, but there is no date next to the F4F-4 like there is for the others on the upgrade list. Any help on this topic would be very much appreciated.

I used my 4th Australian Division to take back Makassar. It seems to have suffered a lot of casualties, as it's down to 107 AV! I noticed in the unit/device pools screen that CMF Militia Squads are no longer available (as of 42/03). How can I tell whether this LCU ever ugprades? I guess I'm ok with it either way, I just want to figure out whether the division will ever be useful again.

Is it beneficial to use lots of ships in Amphibious TFs to get a unit unloaded faster? Say I can fit a unit on 2 APs... However, would the unit be fully disembarked faster if I used say, 8 APs? What effect does this have on disruption? I am looking to become more efficient and less haphazard in my amphibious ops.

Many thanks for all the help available in this community.

(in reply to Lokasenna)
Post #: 36
RE: Longtime lurker with Noob Questions - 4/2/2012 5:32:55 PM   
Puhis

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

Alright, have played a couple more months and am back with more questions!

How long does it take the Allied airframe production to speed up? I'm at May 21, 1942 and am finding the production rate of F4F-4s and SBD-3s to be agonizingly slow.





Allied production is fixed, you pretty much get what they historically had. It's not possible to speed up production. 1942 is hard time for allies, but you'll get more planes later.

(in reply to Lokasenna)
Post #: 37
RE: Longtime lurker with Noob Questions - 4/2/2012 6:33:35 PM   
Lokasenna


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I'm just anxious, is all. I know I can't mess with production... I just haven't seen the production rates increase at all since March (rate of 21 for SBD-3, for example). I just want to know how long it takes before I start getting about a plane a day, or whatever.

Also, I've noticed that the production rate for my F4F-4 is listed as 0, but I am slowly accruing them so it must be greater than 0 but less than 1?

(in reply to Puhis)
Post #: 38
RE: Longtime lurker with Noob Questions - 4/2/2012 6:38:29 PM   
pompack


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In general, no Allied a/c ever INCREASES produciton. Instead the a/c model is replaced with a more (supposedly) advanced model with different (usually higher) production rates

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Post #: 39
RE: Longtime lurker with Noob Questions - 4/2/2012 7:34:28 PM   
Lokasenna


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Ah, that's informative. If somewhat disappointing.

So I could look through the availability/production list and that rate should show up, but will be greyed out because it's not available yet...right?

Sounds like VF-6 might be boned for a while then.

< Message edited by Lokasenna -- 4/2/2012 7:35:04 PM >

(in reply to pompack)
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RE: Longtime lurker with Noob Questions - 4/2/2012 7:48:33 PM   
cohimbra


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna
...but will be greyed out because it's not available yet...right?


Right.

(in reply to Lokasenna)
Post #: 41
RE: Longtime lurker with Noob Questions - 4/2/2012 9:37:18 PM   
Lokasenna


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I'll just check when I get home, but I should clarify that I wasn't asking something that one can find out simply by way of reading comprehension . IIRC it does say right on there about available dates, I was wondering whether it showed its production rates once it became available or whether I need to wait until it becomes available to find out how quickly I get the new plane.

Easier for planning, see...

(in reply to cohimbra)
Post #: 42
RE: Longtime lurker with Noob Questions - 4/3/2012 3:05:02 AM   
pompack


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basically the allies will not have enough a/c production to fill out the few units they get until some time after April 43. It makes for a long, frustrating war

(in reply to Lokasenna)
Post #: 43
RE: Longtime lurker with Noob Questions - 4/3/2012 5:52:56 AM   
Alfred

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

I'll just check when I get home, but I should clarify that I wasn't asking something that one can find out simply by way of reading comprehension . IIRC it does say right on there about available dates, I was wondering whether it showed its production rates once it became available or whether I need to wait until it becomes available to find out how quickly I get the new plane.

Easier for planning, see...



It may not have been your intention but that is exactly how it comes across as.

Before going into specific details to answer your post #36, I highly recommend you go back and thoroughly read the following sections of the manual. It is clear to me that you have not grasped certain basic game concepts, hence the need to return to the manual first.


  • s.7.1 - air unit information screen
  • s.8.2.1 - LCU information screen
  • s.13.2.2.4 - aircraft factories
  • s.16.2.3 - aircraft upgrades
  • ss.16.4 and 16.4.1 - LCU replacements and upgrades



1. Having more than the minimum number of troop transports will speed up the unloading of troops over a hostile beach as the troop load is spread out over more ships. The individual ship unload rates is provided in s.6.3.3.3.2.1 of the manual.


2. There are several places in game where the production run dates for aircraft can be ascertained.

(a) The ingame "Aircraft Database" (accessed by short cut key "D").

Click on an aircraft model. Resulting screen provides additional info on the model. Included at the bottom is the start month/year (1st of the designated month) and end month/year (31st of the designated month) production period for that model. If only one date is shown, the model remains in production as at the scenario end date.

(b) "Aircraft Replacement Pool" (accessed by short cut key "I" which takes you to the Information portal, thence from within the portal, short cut kye "3").

(i) The unfiltered screen shows aircraft production rates (dealt with in point 3 below) and the date models become available. If the available date is in red, that particular model has finished its production run. Models which are still in production or are yet to enter into production have their available date in white. The only grey lettering present on this screen does not indicate whether a model is in or out of production. Grey lettering here is limited to the column which lists the next model in the production upgrade path - grey if the model does not upgrade to another model, white if it does upgrade to the identified different model.

(ii) Click on an aircraft model in this screen and you are taken to a screen with additional aircraft data (similar to #1 above). This new screen gives both the start and end dates of the model's production run.

(c) "Air Unit Info Screen" (accessed by clikcing on a squadron).

At the bottom of this screen there are three yellow headers. The middle one is titled "Aircraft Data". Click on "Aircraft Data" and a screen similar to those mentioned in (a) and (b) above is presented. Again the start and end dates of the model's production run are presented.

(d) Aircraft upgrade options screen (accessed from the "Air Unit Info Screen" by clicking on the yellow "do not upgrade/upgrade [model specified] toggle.

This takes you to the upgrade model options list (again details on upgrading is discussed in point 4 below). Click on your right hand side mouse button to bring up the additional model details screen which we have encountered previously. Again the start and end dates of the production run is provided.


3. Aircraft Production Rate.

The "Aircraft Replacement Pool" (read point 2(b) above as to how to access it) splits production runs into two columns;


  • replace rate
  • production rate


The "replace rate" lists the total production sourced from abstracted off map aircraft factories for that model. The "replace rate" production run only lasts for the period specified on the models start/end dates.

The "production rate" lists the total production from all on map aircraft factories for that model. Allied on map aircraft factories may only start production as of the models start date and will continue producing that model until they retool for the next model on the upgrade production path (see 2(b)(i) above).

The overwhelming majority of Allied aircraft models only receive "replace rate" production. A few receive both "replace rate" and "production rate" production, and a few others receive only "production rate" production.


4. Air Unit Upgrades.

There are essentially only two limitations regarding upgrading a squadron from one aircraft model to a different model:


  • you are limited to only the models which are made available on the upgrade screen
  • you need to have airframes of the different model in the aircraft pools


If squadron upgrades is left up to the computer, the upgrade will only occur if there are sufficient airframes in the pools to fully match the squadron's TOE. A manual upgrade performed by a human only needs 1 airframe in the aircraft pool to effect the upgrade.

With PDU (=Player Defined Upgrade) ON, whether a model has either ceased being in production or remains in production, is entirely irrelevant to the process of changing a squadron's assigned model. All that matter is whether any airframes are in the aircraft pool. It is therefore irrelevant as to whether a model is greyed out in the Upgrade Options screen.

With PDU ON, to effect a manual squadron upgrade, the following steps on the Upgrade Options screen are required.

(a) If no model has been preselected, select model from the list presented using the left hand mouse button

(b) click on button "Do Not Upgrade" to toggle it to read "Upgrade Allowed"

(c) click on "Done" button to accept the upgrade path

(d) click on "Exit" button - this will return you to the "Air Unit Info Screen"

(e) now on the "Air Unit Info Screen", click on the "Upgrade Now" button


5. LCU Upgrades

The devices which a LCU has is limited by its TOE and the state of the pools. You need to know the situation regarding both in order to determine the extend of possible unit strength recovery.

(a) The devices pool is accessed via the Information Portal (short cut key "I") and from there clicking on the "Industry/Troops/Resource Pool" (from within the portal the short cut key 0). There you are provided with production rate and start/end dates of production, as well as how many devices are in the pool.

(b) On the LCU Information Screen, at the bottom is a button to display the unit's TOE. Click it and the current list of devices in the unit is replaced with the unit's TOE which is the theoretical maximum number of devices in the unit.


I won't go into specific explanations as to why you are failing to satisfactorily resolve your problems of post #36 because a careful reading of this post will make the reasons obvious.

Alfred

(in reply to Lokasenna)
Post #: 44
RE: Longtime lurker with Noob Questions - 4/3/2012 10:03:42 AM   
Blackhorse


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

Is it beneficial to use lots of ships in Amphibious TFs to get a unit unloaded faster? Say I can fit a unit on 2 APs... However, would the unit be fully disembarked faster if I used say, 8 APs? What effect does this have on disruption? I am looking to become more efficient and less haphazard in my amphibious ops.

Many thanks for all the help available in this community.


Yes, more ships = faster unload. Importantly, APAs unload faster than APs, and both unload much faster than xAPs. But APAs are rare for the allies, especially in the early years of the war. Guard them well!

_____________________________

WitP-AE -- US LCU & AI Stuff

Oddball: Why don't you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don't you dig how beautiful it is out here? Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?
Moriarty: Crap!

(in reply to Lokasenna)
Post #: 45
RE: Longtime lurker with Noob Questions - 4/3/2012 3:38:46 PM   
Lokasenna


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Yeah, I realized that I had caused a miscommunication. But hey - no harm, no foul. And I admit that, with a 300 page manual, I decided the best way to learn was to jump in and start doing stuff. I think by now I have almost all of the mechanics figured out but am obviously still missing a lot on the logistics. I'm thinking I will start up a game against the AI as Japan to force me to learn production and such at a quicker pace. Also to get an idea of what it's like to get more than 1 airframe per day!

Thanks a bunch, Alfred (and Blackhorse/pompack) for taking the time to provide such extensive info, your guidance is greatly appreciated. Especially for the clarification of the replace rate and production rate on the airframes - I had been confused why I was still building up a pool of certain planes despite a production rate of 0. So now my only remaining confusion is on why I cannot set VF-6 to a different airframe for upgrade - when I left click on the model from the list, it takes me to the aircraft data screen for that model despite the fact that I know the model is available and there are frames in the pool. I have never changed the upgrade path for an air unit before, so I may very well be missing something... I'll be sure to go over it again several times this evening.

For my LCU that's understrength from casualties, I know its current TOE has no more devices of that type in the pool. But how can I tell if, for example, my CMF Militia Squads will upgrade to a new type once I have enough in the pool? Or does that automatically happen for every LCU with "upgrades on" and I don't need to worry about it? As far as my war against the AI goes, I can easily afford the attrition so it's not a big deal either way. Also, what is the level of supplies required for upgrades to occur? 16.4.1 of the manual doesn't give a number.

I'm actually pretty bad about leaving "upgrade allowed" on, it's caused several TFs to disband for upgrades at somewhat inopportune times. Oops! Still learning my "best practices" .

Oh, another question. In various AARs, I see mention of "supply draw" buttons. Is this referring to manually increasing the amount of supplies required by the base using the ">" and "|>" buttons next to that line in the base information screen? Does that actually work when playing Japan to draw fuel/supplies to Korea from bases all the way in Burma? Or am I completely missing something? (Chapters 9 and 15 of the manual aren't terribly descriptive on this front...)


< Message edited by Lokasenna -- 4/3/2012 3:39:41 PM >

(in reply to Blackhorse)
Post #: 46
RE: Longtime lurker with Noob Questions - 4/3/2012 4:05:12 PM   
Alfred

 

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Go and read those sections of the manual. Then go over slowly my post. There really is no short cut if you want to master this game. Going in and doing "stuff" without learning the principles first is guaranteed to give you a spotty education.

For additional homework read this thread:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2878790&mpage=1&key=logistics%2C101�

Once all the homework has been completed ponder on how the following concepts apply or do not apply to the homework previously set for study. In some instances the answer is already provided in my previous post. Do they apply to your situation.

1. PDU OFF
2. Auto upgrades on
3. Upgrades do not cause task forces to disband
4. What is a TOE and its relationship to individual devices in a land combat unit

There is no point in discussing how to play as Japan. It is much easier to learn the game mechanics by playing the Allied side first. The principles are the same for both sides.

Alfred

(in reply to Lokasenna)
Post #: 47
RE: Longtime lurker with Noob Questions - 4/3/2012 6:20:37 PM   
Lokasenna


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My calc teacher said the same thing about short cuts at first, but he changed his tune when I mastered his material. Just because I go about things a different way (the best way, for me) does not mean that my way is invalid. I learn the principles by doing, and I dare say I have many (or all) principles down - my questions are not about principles, they are about the UI process needed to perform a desired task. If I ask twice, it is because I read the responses (often having already tried the suggested solution) and the problem remains unresolved.

1. PDU is on.
2. Auto upgrades is on. They are currently set to upgrade to F4F-3, of which there are none available, while F4F-4 is in their upgrade tree, of which there are 15 available. I would love to change the upgrade path to F4F-4 so it would automatically upgrade next time I make port, but left-clicking on F4F-4 in the upgrade path does not change the upgrade path.
3. They clearly do, when all the ships have available upgrades. The day my CV TF arrived in port, all the ships were taken out of commission for upgrades. So lesson learned - turn upgrades off until I want to do them.
4. I know what TO&E is, and I know what the numbers and parentheses mean on the unit information screen. The manual's section on LCU upgrades does not say how I can find out what the analogous "upgrade path" is for an LCU like I can for an air unit.

This still does not explain to me why I, at 5/26/42, am seemingly unable to upgrade VF-6 to F4F-4 airframes when I have 15 in the pool (and the TF is in a port with AF7 and 100k+ supplies). I have manually upgraded at least a dozen other air units.

I appreciate the information, I really do. However, this is a game and I'll play it how I choose - and I have chosen to figure it out as I play (which can include doing homework, and I appreciate the link to the 101 thread - but it doesn't answer my question about supply draw). What I don't appreciate is being talked down to as if I were too dense to comprehend what you've written. So if my questions, which may come from ignorance resulting from my learn-as-I-play method, try your patience... I would just rather not have to absorb the information you give while also swallowing belittling language like "still failing to grasp basic concepts" and "a careful reading [will make the reasons you are failing obvious]". I realize that some of this may be because, this being the internet, English may not be your first language (nothing wrong with that) and translation can result in miscommunication. But the reason I am asking the questions is because the manual is unclear on many fronts or the information is buried in a related section that is not referenced - and the index is far from comprehensive. I am trying to be polite about this, but the tone of your posts rubs me the wrong way and if I have to choose between getting the information or not being offended, I would choose to not be offended. If I anticipated never having another question, I would ignore the offense I take at being (subtly) belittled. But since I imagine I'll have future questions...

And back to the jumping right in and learning while I go thing, which is where I feel like the disdain in your posts is coming from - I would rather enjoy a game than master it. It's a game. If this process causes me to take longer to master the game (it took me a couple of years to master the previous WW2 Pacific strategy game I played, PTO2), then so be it.

(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 48
RE: Longtime lurker with Noob Questions - 4/3/2012 8:18:37 PM   
derhexer


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I'm not going to comments on the questions or responses.

I'd like to thank Lokasenna for starting this thread and asking the questions. And thanks to all the other posters who have helped me understand this game better. I've learned a lot

_____________________________

Chris
(Did you ever stop to think and forget to start?)

(in reply to Lokasenna)
Post #: 49
RE: Longtime lurker with Noob Questions - 4/3/2012 9:07:58 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

My calc teacher said the same thing about short cuts at first, but he changed his tune when I mastered his material.


You don't know it yet, but your post here is the funniest of the week. You get a prize.

Alfred knows more about how this game works than any living individual except the dev team. He gave you some answers, pointed you towards others. Your ego isn't letting you see what he told you. I doubt he will try again.

You DON'T know what you're doing. I know only a fraction of what Alfred does and I can see howlers in your post. RTFM. Stop pressing buttons and RTFM.

_____________________________

The Moose

(in reply to Lokasenna)
Post #: 50
RE: Longtime lurker with Noob Questions - 4/3/2012 10:03:26 PM   
Alfred

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

My calc teacher said the same thing about short cuts at first, but he changed his tune when I mastered his material. Just because I go about things a different way (the best way, for me) does not mean that my way is invalid. I learn the principles by doing, and I dare say I have many (or all) principles down - my questions are not about principles, they are about the UI process needed to perform a desired task. If I ask twice, it is because I read the responses (often having already tried the suggested solution) and the problem remains unresolved.

1. PDU is on.
2. Auto upgrades is on. They are currently set to upgrade to F4F-3, of which there are none available, while F4F-4 is in their upgrade tree, of which there are 15 available. I would love to change the upgrade path to F4F-4 so it would automatically upgrade next time I make port, but left-clicking on F4F-4 in the upgrade path does not change the upgrade path.
3. They clearly do, when all the ships have available upgrades. The day my CV TF arrived in port, all the ships were taken out of commission for upgrades. So lesson learned - turn upgrades off until I want to do them.
4. I know what TO&E is, and I know what the numbers and parentheses mean on the unit information screen. The manual's section on LCU upgrades does not say how I can find out what the analogous "upgrade path" is for an LCU like I can for an air unit.

This still does not explain to me why I, at 5/26/42, am seemingly unable to upgrade VF-6 to F4F-4 airframes when I have 15 in the pool (and the TF is in a port with AF7 and 100k+ supplies). I have manually upgraded at least a dozen other air units.

I appreciate the information, I really do. However, this is a game and I'll play it how I choose - and I have chosen to figure it out as I play (which can include doing homework, and I appreciate the link to the 101 thread - but it doesn't answer my question about supply draw). What I don't appreciate is being talked down to as if I were too dense to comprehend what you've written. So if my questions, which may come from ignorance resulting from my learn-as-I-play method, try your patience... I would just rather not have to absorb the information you give while also swallowing belittling language like "still failing to grasp basic concepts" and "a careful reading [will make the reasons you are failing obvious]". I realize that some of this may be because, this being the internet, English may not be your first language (nothing wrong with that) and translation can result in miscommunication. But the reason I am asking the questions is because the manual is unclear on many fronts or the information is buried in a related section that is not referenced - and the index is far from comprehensive. I am trying to be polite about this, but the tone of your posts rubs me the wrong way and if I have to choose between getting the information or not being offended, I would choose to not be offended. If I anticipated never having another question, I would ignore the offense I take at being (subtly) belittled. But since I imagine I'll have future questions...

And back to the jumping right in and learning while I go thing, which is where I feel like the disdain in your posts is coming from - I would rather enjoy a game than master it. It's a game. If this process causes me to take longer to master the game (it took me a couple of years to master the previous WW2 Pacific strategy game I played, PTO2), then so be it.



Right, the gloves are off. You do not know what you are saying for the answers have been provided and yet you continue to ask thoughtless questions which demonstrate a lack of knowledge. Let's begin with dealing with the following 4 points you made.

1. PDU is on.

This means that you have many plane model options available.


2. Auto upgrades is on. They are currently set to upgrade to F4F-3, of which there are none available, while F4F-4 is in their upgrade tree, of which there are 15 available. I would love to change the upgrade path to F4F-4 so it would automatically upgrade next time I make port, but left-clicking on F4F-4 in the upgrade path does not change the upgrade path.

In post #44 under "Air Unit Upgrades" I gave you a step by step process as to how it is done. Yet again you repeat it doesn't work. Your silence regarding the exact steps you have taken is conclusive evidence that you have not even attempted to follow the correct procedure which I outlined step by step. Whose fault is that?



3. They clearly do, when all the ships have available upgrades. The day my CV TF arrived in port, all the ships were taken out of commission for upgrades. So lesson learned - turn upgrades off until I want to do them.

Again in post #47 I said quite unequivocally, in response to your own earlier inaccurate statement, that ship upgrades do not cause task forces to disband. Don't utter such rubbish that "they clearly do", there are newbies present who may be misled. Where in the manual do you find any evidence to support your false assertion.

How ships upgrade is dealt with in s.14.1.1 of the manual. The manual makes it quite clear to anyone who purports to have read it, that there is more involved to effecting an upgrade than just having a ship in port. Next you will be complaining that a ship is not undergoing an upgrade even though it is disbanded in a port.


4. I know what TO&E is, and I know what the numbers and parentheses mean on the unit information screen. The manual's section on LCU upgrades does not say how I can find out what the analogous "upgrade path" is for an LCU like I can for an air unit.

Again, the answer has been provided in post #44 where you were both directed to the relevant sections of the manual and I gave you directions under "LCU Upgrades".

If you really knew what a TOE is and what it represents in this game, you would not again be asking this thoughtless question about individual device upgrades. In a LCU, it is the TOE which upgrades, not devices. If you really knew anything rather than having an ego that makes you believe you know, you would have been asking what are the conditions necessary for a TOE to change.


Now let's consider this quote from you.

If I ask twice, it is because I read the responses (often having already tried the suggested solution) and the problem remains unresolved.

Not only have I been playing this game far longer than you have and have a good grasp on the game mechanics, as my reputation on the forum will testify, but when I post a step by step solution to a problem put up by a newbie, I first rehearse the steps to ensure that it will work. I know for a fact that the steps I outlined in post #44 do work because I did them immediately before I penned that post. So you claiming that the problem remains unresolved means either that you did not attempt to do them (thereby placing in doubt the veracity of your statement) or you failed to carry them out exactly as presented. With whom would the fault therefore lie that the problem remains unresolved?


Next is this quote of yours.

This still does not explain to me why I, at 5/26/42, am seemingly unable to upgrade VF-6 to F4F-4 airframes when I have 15 in the pool (and the TF is in a port with AF7 and 100k+ supplies). I have manually upgraded at least a dozen other air units.

Now the story regarding VF-6 is altered. Like many with inflated egos, only some of the facts to a problem are presented, and yet the forum is expected to guess the solution without being made privy to all the relevant facts.

My earlier comments regarding aircraft upgrades still stand. Even though you now claim to have "manually upgraded at least a dozen other air units" this claim carries no evidentiary weight as to your competency.

The problem you have clearly identified in earlier posts with VF-6 is an inability to change the upgrade path from the currently scheduled F4F-3 to your desired F4F-4. Whether you have in the past manually upgraded other units is a non sequitur (you are obviously au fait with web browser translation services for me not to need to explain the meaning of these foreign terms). There is only one button which needs to be clicked if one wants to manually upgrade to the preset scheduled upgrade. There are many more buttons involved in first changing the preset scheduled upgrade path. Those steps have been outlined and you have failed to demonstrate that you have followed them.


Next quote.

I realize that some of this may be because, this being the internet, English may not be your first language (nothing wrong with that) and translation can result in miscommunication. But the reason I am asking the questions is because the manual is unclear on many fronts or the information is buried in a related section that is not referenced - and the index is far from comprehensive.

The clear inference to be drawn is that my posts were written in unclear english. Interesting as no one else on the forum has ever implied that; in fact if any comment is made by others it is usually quite in contradiction to your own view. Oh by the way, I do hope you appreciated the use of the semi colon in the preceding sentence, nowaday such a greatly underused grammatical device.

There are some, not many, who respond to newbies with RTF manual. If lucky they will point out to the newbie some generic sections. I never do that. Instead I clinically direct people to relevant sections of the manual and then usually provide a summary of the relevant factors. Doing so enables people to read the source document and my explanation. It is therefore easy for them to assess the accuracy of my comments.

To imply that I merely told you to RTF manual is quite a misrepresentation of post #44. I did no such thing. Nor did I say the manual was easy to read, if it were so there would have been absolutely no need for me to have made the detailed comments I did make in that post. I would however maintain that a careful reading of the manual alone would suffice. Afterall, it is what I largely did when I was learning how to play the game. However, as indicated above, it was and remains clear to me that you have at best, a tenuous grasp on what is contained in the manual.

As to the supply draw, I see no point in jumping into that swamp when important information, such as which version of the game you play, has not been provided. I'm not prepared to second guess you, particularly when the subject has been discussed previously in other threads. You are aware that one can search the forum for previously given answers?

The link to the logistics thread was provided in post #47 because you specifically asked in your post #46 "what is the level of supplies required for upgrades to occur? 16.4.1 of the manual doesn't give a number." Again if you had read the relevant sections of the manual and my comments provided to you in post #44, you would have realised just how out of touch that question is. The relevant applicable concept is how much supply does it cost to take on replacements. The logistics thread I directed you to answered that. Silly me to try to second guess what you really meant and provide you with what would be of real benefit to you.


No one who answers newbies on this forum gets paid for doing so. Some of us expend more effort and time in answering than the questioner has expended on their own behalf. It does not behove a newbie to present themselves as lazy, incapable of coping with detail and with an ego that interferes with their understanding of answers given. You can play the game anyway you like but you have no right to reiterate bone headed questions which can cause confusion to others when correct answers have already been provided.

Alfred

(in reply to Lokasenna)
Post #: 51
RE: Longtime lurker with Noob Questions - 4/3/2012 11:23:54 PM   
Bobdina1

 

Posts: 30
Joined: 2/28/2012
From: Fla.
Status: offline
Alfred I just want to thank you for all the help you have given to us new players. I have not had to ask a question because the answers you have given along with the manual sections have answered all questions thus far. I have learned so much from these forums about how the game operates it amazing. Although you have never answered a direct question from me you have answered every question I have had so far, thank you very much for your time AND everyone else who helps out us nubbies make this so much more enjoyable.

(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 52
RE: Longtime lurker with Noob Questions - 4/5/2012 2:21:20 AM   
sventhebold


Posts: 296
Joined: 12/22/2006
From: MN The greening fields
Status: offline
+1

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(in reply to Bobdina1)
Post #: 53
RE: Longtime lurker with Noob Questions - 4/7/2012 8:24:44 PM   
Lokasenna


Posts: 2956
Joined: 3/3/2012
From: Iowan in MD/DC
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

Right, the gloves are off. You do not know what you are saying for the answers have been provided and yet you continue to ask thoughtless questions which demonstrate a lack of knowledge. Let's begin with dealing with the following 4 points you made.

They obviously haven't been made clear enough...or pursuant to your response below, maybe you weren't clear because I wasn't asking the right questions?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

In post #44 under "Air Unit Upgrades" I gave you a step by step process as to how it is done. Yet again you repeat it doesn't work. Your silence regarding the exact steps you have taken is conclusive evidence that you have not even attempted to follow the correct procedure which I outlined step by step. Whose fault is that?

I thought it was implied that I had done what you (and the manual) said. Also, you're confusing conclusive evidence with circumstantial evidence - circumstantial is incorrect in its implications as often as it is correct.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

3. They clearly do, when all the ships have available upgrades. The day my CV TF arrived in port, all the ships were taken out of commission for upgrades. So lesson learned - turn upgrades off until I want to do them.

Again in post #47 I said quite unequivocally, in response to your own earlier inaccurate statement, that ship upgrades do not cause task forces to disband. Don't utter such rubbish that "they clearly do", there are newbies present who may be misled. Where in the manual do you find any evidence to support your false assertion.

Then obviously, if it wasn't that, something else caused the entire TF that was not set to auto-disband to disband and every single ship to begin refitting.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

How ships upgrade is dealt with in s.14.1.1 of the manual. The manual makes it quite clear to anyone who purports to have read it, that there is more involved to effecting an upgrade than just having a ship in port. Next you will be complaining that a ship is not undergoing an upgrade even though it is disbanded in a port.

I'm well aware of the shipyard size requirements as well, thanks. I have read that section. It also says in the UI what the requirements are.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

If you really knew what a TOE is and what it represents in this game, you would not again be asking this thoughtless question about individual device upgrades. In a LCU, it is the TOE which upgrades, not devices. If you really knew anything rather than having an ego that makes you believe you know, you would have been asking what are the conditions necessary for a TOE to change.

So you didn't give me the answer because of semantics, because I asked what the conditions are for a LCU's devices to upgrade instead of "how does a TOE change"? I realize the help here is volunteer only. Fine - what are the conditions for a TOE to change?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

Now let's consider this quote from you.

If I ask twice, it is because I read the responses (often having already tried the suggested solution) and the problem remains unresolved.

Not only have I been playing this game far longer than you have and have a good grasp on the game mechanics, as my reputation on the forum will testify, but when I post a step by step solution to a problem put up by a newbie, I first rehearse the steps to ensure that it will work. I know for a fact that the steps I outlined in post #44 do work because I did them immediately before I penned that post. So you claiming that the problem remains unresolved means either that you did not attempt to do them (thereby placing in doubt the veracity of your statement) or you failed to carry them out exactly as presented. With whom would the fault therefore lie that the problem remains unresolved?

And I appreciate you checking the methods first - I do the same, and everyone should, when answering questions (elsewhere for me, obviously). But it hasn't worked. See below screenshots, which I obviously need to post every time I have a question or no one will believe that I've already tried what they said. I suppose that's not a bad policy for preempting situations like this.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

Now the story regarding VF-6 is altered. Like many with inflated egos, only some of the facts to a problem are presented, and yet the forum is expected to guess the solution without being made privy to all the relevant facts.

More insults and disparagement...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

My earlier comments regarding aircraft upgrades still stand. Even though you now claim to have "manually upgraded at least a dozen other air units" this claim carries no evidentiary weight as to your competency.

The problem you have clearly identified in earlier posts with VF-6 is an inability to change the upgrade path from the currently scheduled F4F-3 to your desired F4F-4. Whether you have in the past manually upgraded other units is a non sequitur (you are obviously au fait with web browser translation services for me not to need to explain the meaning of these foreign terms). There is only one button which needs to be clicked if one wants to manually upgrade to the preset scheduled upgrade. There are many more buttons involved in first changing the preset scheduled upgrade path. Those steps have been outlined and you have failed to demonstrate that you have followed them.

Ignoring your rage and the unwarranted insults for now, see screenshots below. What am I doing wrong?

With VF-6, my story has never altered. I changed it how? It's stuck on F4F-3A airframes and always has been. I left click (which is what it says to do in the "FM", Bullwinkle, and what you said will do it, Alfred) on the F4F-4 airframe and it brings up the Aircraft Data screen - which is what the manual says right clicking will do. At this point...do I have a UI bug? Or do I need to find some F4F-3 airframes somewhere and upgrade to them first (which seems silly)? Or do I need to wait for 27 F4F-4 airframes to be in the pool? The "and requires 27 planes to upgrade" line at the top has never stopped me from upgrading other air units (admittedly ones for which I did not need to change the path, but why should that matter?). Posting screenshots - I did exactly what you posted both before and after you posted it.


Then I left click on F4F-4 Wildcat and it brings up . What am I missing here? If it's just that the UI won't let me change the ugprade path unless there are enough (27) planes in the pool...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

The clear inference to be drawn is that my posts were written in unclear english. Interesting as no one else on the forum has ever implied that; in fact if any comment is made by others it is usually quite in contradiction to your own view. Oh by the way, I do hope you appreciated the use of the semi colon in the preceding sentence, nowaday such a greatly underused grammatical device.

I was just wondering, as the responses from highly respected members of online communities and help desks don't generally contain language insulting the intelligence of the people posting for help in their responses. By the way, it's "nowadays" if you want to start being picky. And "English". And that's not what a non sequitur is. I realize you're trying to satire what you incorrectly assume is an obsession with correctness on my part... But none of this is relevant.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

There are some, not many, who respond to newbies with RTF manual. If lucky they will point out to the newbie some generic sections. I never do that. Instead I clinically direct people to relevant sections of the manual and then usually provide a summary of the relevant factors. Doing so enables people to read the source document and my explanation. It is therefore easy for them to assess the accuracy of my comments.

To imply that I merely told you to RTF manual is quite a misrepresentation of post #44. I did no such thing. Nor did I say the manual was easy to read, if it were so there would have been absolutely no need for me to have made the detailed comments I did make in that post. I would however maintain that a careful reading of the manual alone would suffice. Afterall, it is what I largely did when I was learning how to play the game. However, as indicated above, it was and remains clear to me that you have at best, a tenuous grasp on what is contained in the manual.

As I have previously stated, your approach is much appreciated. Do I need to take pictures of me reading the manual as well?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

As to the supply draw, I see no point in jumping into that swamp when important information, such as which version of the game you play, has not been provided. I'm not prepared to second guess you, particularly when the subject has been discussed previously in other threads. You are aware that one can search the forum for previously given answers?

That's fine, I'm beginning to figure it out on my own.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

The link to the logistics thread was provided in post #47 because you specifically asked in your post #46 "what is the level of supplies required for upgrades to occur? 16.4.1 of the manual doesn't give a number." Again if you had read the relevant sections of the manual and my comments provided to you in post #44, you would have realised just how out of touch that question is. The relevant applicable concept is how much supply does it cost to take on replacements. The logistics thread I directed you to answered that. Silly me to try to second guess what you really meant and provide you with what would be of real benefit to you.

Ok, so with this clarification (or is it?), do upgrades "just happen" then, so long as the supplies required for replacements are available?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

No one who answers newbies on this forum gets paid for doing so. Some of us expend more effort and time in answering than the questioner has expended on their own behalf. It does not behove a newbie to present themselves as lazy, incapable of coping with detail and with an ego that interferes with their understanding of answers given. You can play the game anyway you like but you have no right to reiterate bone headed questions which can cause confusion to others when correct answers have already been provided.

Alfred

Ego this, ego that. I thought I made it very clear that, being a nub, I don't know all that much. I've learned a lot from the answers here, particularly yours. As for the English, it wasn't that what you were saying was unclear - I was just wondering if the general high-handedness was the result of speaking multiple languages or intended.

I thought I was being polite and I come back to more insults, though not so subtly couched this time. I didn't insult you, so why the venom? Silly me for thinking I could come to the online community for a game I enjoy, ask questions in a polite and respectful manner, and expect to get polite and respectful responses. Was it wrong of me to assume this? It would appear so.

For the record, I am running 1.0.6.1108r9 - the latest official, no?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

You don't know it yet, but your post here is the funniest of the week. You get a prize.

Is it an underhanded putdown? Because I suspect that, as happens in other areas, my methods of investigation and interrogation are the cause of these "howlers" - we're talking past each other. Forgive me for not knowing which terminology to use so that I can ask questions with the proper semantics. I'm only a newbie, after all. But if you don't have an answer to the question (even if it's just "look at section x.y.z in the manual"), why post at all?

< Message edited by Lokasenna -- 4/7/2012 8:54:21 PM >

(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 54
RE: Longtime lurker with Noob Questions - 4/8/2012 12:38:21 AM   
johnjohn

 

Posts: 152
Joined: 9/18/2010
From: Arvada, CO
Status: offline
As a lurker, I generally do not post outside of the AAR I am a part of with an experienced player.

Just some observations and perhaps a "home rule or two."

1. This is a complicated game. Learning it, and learning it well, takes time and patience. Many of our experienced gamers contribute their knowledge to making this process more enjoyable, and helping to answer the less obvious questions that occasionally come up, even with experienced players.

2. Throwing down the gauntlets, at least at this point in the discussion, is not helpful.

3. Everyone has an ego.

4. Frustration, especially at trying to do things that should work but do not, is not uncommon. Almost always those issues are related to operator error, not the game (bugs do occur, but they are much more rare than one may think).

5. All of us Noobs have experienced some or all of the same issues raised here, and we appreciate the sage and good advice from Afred et. al., even when we still cannot apply the solution (usually meaning, there is another operator error or system restraint that we did not notice before). It is a complicated game.

6. Anger and Temper has now entered into the thread. As a personal request I would ask ALL participants to apologize to one another. I would also ask those more experienced to cut us Noobs some slack. We are easily frustrated when something happens that we did not anticipate or did not know would happen even after reading the manual.

7. OK, no house rules. Let us all go take some cold showers and then come back and enjoy what we are learning and imparting without trying to kill each other. I, for one, have enough trouble trying to "kill" the enemy, much less each other.

John

(in reply to Lokasenna)
Post #: 55
RE: Longtime lurker with Noob Questions - 4/8/2012 12:42:31 AM   
johnjohn

 

Posts: 152
Joined: 9/18/2010
From: Arvada, CO
Status: offline
My apologies to Alfred whose name I mistyped in Post #55. John

(in reply to johnjohn)
Post #: 56
RE: Longtime lurker with Noob Questions - 4/8/2012 5:14:29 AM   
Lokasenna


Posts: 2956
Joined: 3/3/2012
From: Iowan in MD/DC
Status: offline
Thanks, John. You said what I did not.

(in reply to johnjohn)
Post #: 57
RE: Longtime lurker with Noob Questions - 4/8/2012 7:45:55 PM   
HansBolter


Posts: 3623
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: St. Petersburg, Florida, USA
Status: offline
Apolgies are most certainly in order especially from Alfred. While is his literally a walking encyclopedia on the game and has been extremely helpful to many, he has let the adoration of several on this forum go to his head. He has grown pompous and condescending.

The simple answer as to why some squadrons will upgrade with only one plane in the pool and others will not is withdrawal. Squadrons that have a withdrawal date will not upgrade until the pool has sufficient numbers to equal the squadron's maximum size. Squadrons with no withdrawal date will upgrade with a single plane in the pool.

While PDU on does give the player greater flexibility than PDU off, it is not cart blanche to upgrade any squadron to any type. Squadrons do still have limited upgrade paths. One of my biggest frustrations are the many Marine dive bomber squadrons that start as SDB1s and cannot upgrade to SBD2s, but skip over that plane type to SBD3s or SBD5s. If you upgrade all your carrier DB squadrons that start as 2s you have a nice pool of available SBD2s that you can never use. I have learned to keep a few carrier squadrons as 2s until the pool of SBD3s increases way beyond what I need for the upgrades so that I will have sufficient pool depth in 3s to sustain losses. This allows me pool depth in the 2s to sustain losses as well. Yes, it's a drawback to operate carriers with DB squadrons with different ranges (the 2s have one less hex range than the 3s) but it's better than rushing the upgrades to 3s and having insufficient pool depth in 3s to sustain losses and a huge pool of unuseable 2s.

Also when eaxmining the plane type production that will become available in future months the list tells you how many of that type you will get each month, with some minor variability from a random factor, but what it fails to tell you is how long the production run lasts. To see that you have to click on the name of the plane and bring up the plane stat screen. In the bottom left corner of that screen you can see how long the production run lasts. Multiply that by the number per month and you have an assessment of how many of that type you will have to work with. Some that have low production rates like PBY5s and PBY5As run for the entire duration of the war. Some like the B26 and A24 have only one month duration production run.

p.s. Sorry, my memory failed me for a moment there. B26s get a 3 month production run from 3/42 thru 5/42.

< Message edited by HansBolter -- 4/8/2012 8:30:07 PM >


_____________________________

Hans


(in reply to Lokasenna)
Post #: 58
RE: Longtime lurker with Noob Questions - 4/9/2012 1:05:16 AM   
Lokasenna


Posts: 2956
Joined: 3/3/2012
From: Iowan in MD/DC
Status: offline
I did not know that about the SBD-2's. That's...unfortunate. I already upgraded my carrier squadrons. Oh well. I feel like I read something relatively recently (Wikipedia page for the SBD? Heh.) about the various models of SBD and how SBD-1s were used by the Marine Corps, A-24 was the USAAF version, and SBD-2 was the fleet version of the SBD-1 (with the tail hook and all that jazz...) while the SBD-3 was a joint Fleet/Marine version that had self-sealing tanks? I'm probably bungling that history.

I'm having another interesting problem with an air unit on Enterprise. It was a unit of 12 Fulmars (I don't remember where they came from [Hermes?], I just had them and CV-6 was short on fighters so...), which has since lost its planes in ridiculously unlucky air combats (where I had at least even numbers, sometimes without any opposing fighters, and would lose 3-4 planes from experienced units - 79 average exp. and minimal combat losses up to that point).

In any case, I now have 10 Fulmar pilots sitting on Enterprise. Disband and Withdraw are greyed out (as they seem to be for all carrier-based units). Replacements are on and there are 67 Fulmars in the pool (that line in the info screen is also greyed out). I am in port at Soerabaja with 80k supply. What have I done to snafu this unit? Heh. I feel like I've abused the Enterprise and it's paying me back.



As for all that hullabaloo, how about we just forget it ever happened?

(in reply to HansBolter)
Post #: 59
RE: Longtime lurker with Noob Questions - 4/9/2012 3:38:15 AM   
johnjohn

 

Posts: 152
Joined: 9/18/2010
From: Arvada, CO
Status: offline
I have some strategic concerns for what you are doing with Enterprise.

It is very risky to use the allied carriers early in the game. First, they are penalized when they operate together in 1942 and 1943, meaning Allied carriers operate in single carrier task forces for a long while. To utilize them in the DEI or PI defense is a good way to get them killed. Strategically you cannot hold the PI or the DEI. Risking carriers in that defense effort could prove very costly.

Second, you do not have the airframes available to sustain CV ops in the early months. It is better to withdraw the carriers, or bunch them up, and concentrate on training the air groups. You cannot afford to lose any carriers early on unless you inflict more damage on the enemy than you sustain. Even against the AI this is difficult to achieve. Against a playing opponent, you would have no chance at all.

Third, and I advise this to all new players, never operate your carriers beyond land based support. This causes the enemy to lose its pilots when shot down and enables you to recover yours. It also forces the enemy to choose between land targets and your carriers when they attack. That may be the difference that saves a carrier or two. But staying away from the enemy, especially the KB is paramount to your long term success.

Lastly, never risk your carriers unless the strategic necessity requires it. You can always come back later and recover bases and islands that you have lost. Even if that is in 1944. And remember, even F4F-4s are not as capable as enemy fighters. Your F6Fs are much better. Wait for them, if you can.

I would highly recommend that you send Enterprise back to the West Coast using the safest route possible. Then you can address the problem of additional depleted squadrons on board ship.

John

(in reply to Lokasenna)
Post #: 60
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