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RE: Community Request - Customized Designs

 
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RE: Community Request - Customized Designs - 3/8/2012 8:53:23 PM   
WoodMan


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I just realised I completely misunderstood this new feature. If we don't use pre-loaded designs (cut and paste the ones which will be official in the next release to the desktop or something) then it will revert to its old style using the race file lines pasted above in Nobles post. Is that correct? If so, no complaints anymore

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Post #: 61
RE: Community Request - Customized Designs - 3/8/2012 10:53:30 PM   
jlevans


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Yes, it is a serious issue if you like using Pirates. Of course this is just myempirical observation to date. Maybe there is another explanation?

Anyhow, it is easily avoided by not using Optimized Designs until the next patch.

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Post #: 62
RE: Community Request - Customized Designs - 3/9/2012 12:13:00 AM   
Igard


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@WoodMan, looks that way to me. If you like you could create 1 super design for each race, taking RP into consideration of course. It would be like the AI has a flagship design.

I don't like pirates using my designs. I'd much rather see them stripped of this ability.

Better yet, implement boarding parties and ship capture, then they can get my ship, but not my design.

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Post #: 63
RE: Community Request - Customized Designs - 3/9/2012 12:43:22 AM   
tjhkkr


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Igard
Better yet, implement boarding parties and ship capture, then they can get my ship, but not my design.


More than an infantry module or part of an infantry module, I would love to see boarding parties. This was implemented with Harpoon 3...
Although, I suspect such a system would be rudimentry.

And Data... I do not mean boarding parties that are bringing Romulan Ale for everyone to drink... so do not start raiding that too...

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Post #: 64
RE: Community Request - Customized Designs - 3/9/2012 2:33:04 AM   
ehsumrell1


Posts: 2029
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From: The Briar Patch Nebula
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tjhkkr

And Data... I do not mean boarding parties that are bringing Romulan Ale for everyone to drink... so do not start raiding that too...


C'mon TJ! Stop giving the Android ideas!!!!!!!!!!!!


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RE: Community Request - Customized Designs - 3/10/2012 11:37:18 AM   
Sithuk

 

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If I had the time the first choice to optimise would be a race with no special ship toys (if there are any?). That would be the default shipset to copy into all the race folders. Then as I had the time I'd optimise for the specific races and their special ship components/weapons. (or use those uploaded here to save me the effort).

Sadly, as a previous user pointed out, creating a completely optimised shipset for each race with all designs refreshed as each tech is researched would take a solid day for each race. I don't have that amount of time.

What I can do that is quicker is load an old save and save the designs. I've got a Dhayut race that I've played through to T4/5 or so. I play max research costs. I'll try and work on that one and optimise it.

A Boskara ship design set has already been posted. If I handle the Dhayut, can someone take another race?

< Message edited by Sithuk -- 3/10/2012 11:38:48 AM >

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Post #: 66
RE: Community Request - Customized Designs - 3/10/2012 2:32:01 PM   
Data


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ehsumrell1


quote:

ORIGINAL: tjhkkr

And Data... I do not mean boarding parties that are bringing Romulan Ale for everyone to drink... so do not start raiding that too...


C'mon TJ! Stop giving the Android ideas!!!!!!!!!!!!



Boarding panties? Ideas like that? Hic, things are so unclear at this time

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RE: Community Request - Customized Designs - 3/10/2012 7:51:37 PM   
Falokis

 

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I'm about done with my Human based ships. My only problem is there seems to be a large delay between when the next version is available to be built and when the AI starts doing it. In some cases, it never does it.

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Post #: 68
RE: Community Request - Customized Designs - 3/10/2012 11:01:45 PM   
ehsumrell1


Posts: 2029
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From: The Briar Patch Nebula
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Data


quote:

ORIGINAL: ehsumrell1


quote:

ORIGINAL: tjhkkr

And Data... I do not mean boarding parties that are bringing Romulan Ale for everyone to drink... so do not start raiding that too...


C'mon TJ! Stop giving the Android ideas!!!!!!!!!!!!



Boarding panties? Ideas like that? Hic, things are so unclear at this time


Damn....see that TJ, wherever you are....now look what you've done!

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Post #: 69
RE: Community Request - Customized Designs - 3/10/2012 11:34:44 PM   
tjhkkr


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Data
Boarding panties? Ideas like that? Hic, things are so unclear at this time!


quote:

ORIGINAL: ehsumrell1
Damn....see that TJ, wherever you are....now look what you've done!


I must admit when I saw Data's entry, I did a double take and double checked to make sure I did not actually write that.
Thankfully I did not.
But I know how to correct this:
[JediMindTrick] Data, when you raid only for Romulan ale and diapers.[/JediMindTrick]

< Message edited by tjhkkr -- 3/10/2012 11:35:32 PM >


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Remember that the evil which is now in the world will become yet more powerful, and that it is not evil which conquers evil, but only love -- Olga Romanov.

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Post #: 70
RE: Community Request - Customized Designs - 3/11/2012 12:53:56 AM   
ehsumrell1


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From: The Briar Patch Nebula
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tjhkkr

But I know how to correct this:
[JediMindTrick] Data, when you raid only for Romulan ale and diapers.[/JediMindTrick]




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Shields are useless in "The Briar Patch"...

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RE: Community Request - Customized Designs - 3/11/2012 12:46:13 PM   
Sithuk

 

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Erik: Dhayut ship designs attached. I've only created ships up to around T4 ot T5 as the game I have sourced my designs from was won by that point.

Erik: it would be useful when we sort by sub-role in the ship design screen to secondary sort by the last selected sort. For example, if I sort by name then sort by sub-role, it would be good if the designs were sorted by name within each sub-role.

WARNING TO ALL: Remember to select ALL of your designs before clicking "Save selected designs" at the top. Otherwise you'll only save the last selected ship design.

ehsumrell / tjhkkr / data: which race ship designs are you preparing and when will you have them uploaded?

Attachment (1)

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RE: Community Request - Customized Designs - 3/11/2012 6:44:40 PM   
Morelyn

 

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Many thanks to those of you who have uploaded files or otherwise contributed usefully to this thread.




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Post #: 73
RE: Community Request - Customized Designs - 3/11/2012 7:06:10 PM   
ehsumrell1


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From: The Briar Patch Nebula
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sithuk

ehsumrell / tjhkkr / data: which race ship designs are you preparing and when will you have them uploaded?


Hello Sithuk!

I am currently finishing testing Legends version 1.7.0.12 for Elliot and the Picard Era Star Trek Mod Legends conversion for Igard, but when finished, I plan on making designs for the Boskara. I just like their style. In addition, they play like I want to see the Breen race play in the Star Trek mod.

Hopefully will upload in about a week!

< Message edited by ehsumrell1 -- 3/11/2012 7:09:34 PM >


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RE: Community Request - Customized Designs - 3/11/2012 8:37:54 PM   
onomastikon

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: onomastikon

I'm afraid I fail to understand exactly what is going on this new feature. This is not meant to be ironic, I just don't understand it, literally. Are we supposed to make "blueprints" for each and every possible ship design based on each and every tech advancement during the course of the game, and then save each of these discretly, so that we (and the AI) fall back on them when the time comes in future games? Is this to help the AI opponent races get better ships, save us time in future games at the sake of an enormous time investment now, or help the AI automatically upgrade our ships when automatic upgrading is set to "on"?

This seems really complicated to me and I am pretty sure I fail to understand both the main point of this feature as well as the exact steps I need to do in order to implement its functionality.


Any help anyone? Thank you very much

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RE: Community Request - Customized Designs - 3/11/2012 8:48:43 PM   
ehsumrell1


Posts: 2029
Joined: 8/17/2010
From: The Briar Patch Nebula
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: onomastikon


quote:

ORIGINAL: onomastikon

I'm afraid I fail to understand exactly what is going on this new feature. This is not meant to be ironic, I just don't understand it, literally. Are we supposed to make "blueprints" for each and every possible ship design based on each and every tech advancement during the course of the game, and then save each of these discretly, so that we (and the AI) fall back on them when the time comes in future games? Is this to help the AI opponent races get better ships, save us time in future games at the sake of an enormous time investment now, or help the AI automatically upgrade our ships when automatic upgrading is set to "on"?

This seems really complicated to me and I am pretty sure I fail to understand both the main point of this feature as well as the exact steps I need to do in order to implement its functionality.


Any help anyone? Thank you very much


Hello Onomastikon;

Just one angle of this is so that the AI doesn't have just 'flat' ship designs. In
another way of speaking, when you start a new game, you can design your own ships
and their components. So much so that you can 'overpower' the AI ships constantly.
This feature will allow one to design the AI races' ships so that the game is more
evenly matched, among other facets as well. Hope this helps!

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RE: Community Request - Customized Designs - 3/11/2012 10:02:08 PM   
Sithuk

 

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quote:



ORIGINAL: onomastikon

Are we supposed to make "blueprints" for each and every possible ship design based on each and every tech advancement during the course of the game


Yes.

quote:


and then save each of these discretly


No. Set the filter to show all designs. Then select all the designs. Then click "save selected designs" to save all ship designs to a single ship design file.

quote:


so that we (and the AI) fall back on them when the time comes in future games? Is this to help the AI opponent races get better ships, save us time in future games at the sake of an enormous time investment now, or help the AI automatically upgrade our ships when automatic upgrading is set to "on"?


Yes to each of the questions in the preceding quote.

quote:


the exact steps I need to do in order to implement its functionality.


Create a complete set of ships for a race of your choice with zero tech researched. Pursue research as you normal would with the game on fast forward and then update the designs to create new ship versions for each of the techs as they are researched. Save the entire set of ships and bases into a single ship design set as noted above.


< Message edited by Sithuk -- 3/11/2012 10:04:17 PM >

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Post #: 77
RE: Community Request - Customized Designs - 3/12/2012 2:26:51 AM   
Falokis

 

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Here are some designs for humans. I'm not sure what the problem is, but they don't upgrade anymore. At first, they did. They don't seem to the last couple games. It just stays on the base version even when the build list shows newer ships available. I'm not sure if it is due to a naming problem or something. Either way, I'll get feed back from Erik or you guys.

If anyone wants to test them out, I'll upload them below. I did make it so humans have the Novacore as a racial feature, so you will have to edit that in your race file or just edit the power plant to what you would prefer.

Edit- NTF stands for Neo-Terran Front from Freespace2. They were basically xenophobic human military dictatorship in that game. I added them into my game as another human empire that basically doesn't like anyone and is super aggressive.

Edit2- Must be name sensitive. I went back and renamed them all to clean it up and now it seems to be working. If this keeps up, I'll repost for those that want to test.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Falokis -- 3/12/2012 3:03:02 AM >

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RE: Community Request - Customized Designs - 3/12/2012 7:28:04 AM   
Falokis

 

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Ok, I'm not sure what the problem is. I renamed the ships to clean it up and it worked. I did more tweaking and now it doesn't again. I think it more has to do with the saving of the optimized ships or something. It loads them every time, but again it won't use anything past my version 1 ships. This is even when they are available. I can build them manually, but that kind of defeats the purpose. Here are the cleaned up names for those who want to test them.

Again, you need to let the humans have the Novacore or edit the reactors.

Attachment (1)

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RE: Community Request - Customized Designs - 3/12/2012 8:09:30 AM   
Sithuk

 

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Falo: ship sets for a mod are interesting, thank you for sharing it. Would you be able to do the edit to make it compatible for non-modded players and upload the ship design file, i.e. replace the reactors?

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Post #: 80
RE: Community Request - Customized Designs - 3/12/2012 10:28:53 PM   
elliotg


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sithuk

quote:



ORIGINAL: onomastikon

Are we supposed to make "blueprints" for each and every possible ship design based on each and every tech advancement during the course of the game


Yes.

quote:


and then save each of these discretly


No. Set the filter to show all designs. Then select all the designs. Then click "save selected designs" to save all ship designs to a single ship design file.

quote:


so that we (and the AI) fall back on them when the time comes in future games? Is this to help the AI opponent races get better ships, save us time in future games at the sake of an enormous time investment now, or help the AI automatically upgrade our ships when automatic upgrading is set to "on"?


Yes to each of the questions in the preceding quote.

quote:


the exact steps I need to do in order to implement its functionality.


Create a complete set of ships for a race of your choice with zero tech researched. Pursue research as you normal would with the game on fast forward and then update the designs to create new ship versions for each of the techs as they are researched. Save the entire set of ships and bases into a single ship design set as noted above.


Thanks for that explanation above Sithuk.

I'll also add that in the current version (.12) the optimized designs are given absolute preference - i.e. if an optimized design exists for a subrole (e.g. destroyer) and you have the tech and construction size to build it, then that optimized design will be used - even if your tech has progressed further, and a new AI-generated design would now actually be more effective (i.e. with new tech). The assumption is that the optimized designs will be better than AI-generated ones. When there are multiple buildable optimized designs for a subrole, then the most advanced one will be selected.

Thus you currently (1.7.0.12) need a reasonable number of optimized designs for each subrole at various tech levels so that you keep pace with your tech. At the very least you would always need to have a super-advanced optimized design that uses the highest-level techs. Note that the components in the optimized designs also guide AI research project choices - i.e. the AI gives preference to research projects that will unlock the components in the optimized designs.

HOWEVER in the next version (1.7.0.13) this is changed: while optimized designs are still given preference, this is no longer absolute. So when your tech advances sufficiently, the AI will begin to once again design new ships/bases that may replace the optimized designs (if there are no buildable optimized designs at your tech level). In other words, when your tech is significantly more advanced than the the tech in the best buildable optimized design, then the AI will revert to generating a new design using the new tech, replacing the now-outdated optimized design.

This should make generating optimized design sets less of a chore, because the AI will now fill the gaps between designs better. Optimized designs are still preferred, but will eventually be discarded in favor of new AI designs (as new tech becomes available), if no better optimized designs are currently buildable.

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RE: Community Request - Customized Designs - 3/12/2012 10:33:20 PM   
elliotg


Posts: 3180
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Falokis

Here are some designs for humans. I'm not sure what the problem is, but they don't upgrade anymore. At first, they did. They don't seem to the last couple games. It just stays on the base version even when the build list shows newer ships available. I'm not sure if it is due to a naming problem or something. Either way, I'll get feed back from Erik or you guys.

If anyone wants to test them out, I'll upload them below. I did make it so humans have the Novacore as a racial feature, so you will have to edit that in your race file or just edit the power plant to what you would prefer.

Edit- NTF stands for Neo-Terran Front from Freespace2. They were basically xenophobic human military dictatorship in that game. I added them into my game as another human empire that basically doesn't like anyone and is super aggressive.

Edit2- Must be name sensitive. I went back and renamed them all to clean it up and now it seems to be working. If this keeps up, I'll repost for those that want to test.

Hi Falokis

Thanks for you work generating those designs

In the next version (1.7.0.13) there are fixes that correct some problems with optimized designs sometimes not progressing properly. So that might be what you were seeing too.

Thanks
Elliot

(in reply to Falokis)
Post #: 82
RE: Community Request - Customized Designs - 3/12/2012 10:48:08 PM   
Falokis

 

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Joined: 5/23/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sithuk

Falo: ship sets for a mod are interesting, thank you for sharing it. Would you be able to do the edit to make it compatible for non-modded players and upload the ship design file, i.e. replace the reactors?
Don't ask me why, but this edit version of the ships is working fine for me. Go figure. The reactors are edited as requested, so anyone should be able to drop these in the human design folder and go.

Either way, this should make the humans a little harder to beat. I would delete the resupply ship since there is only 1 version so far. Everything else should be good to go.

Edit- get the version in the post below


< Message edited by Falokis -- 3/13/2012 4:03:43 AM >

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Post #: 83
RE: Community Request - Customized Designs - 3/12/2012 10:49:05 PM   
Falokis

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: elliotg

quote:

ORIGINAL: Falokis

Here are some designs for humans. I'm not sure what the problem is, but they don't upgrade anymore. At first, they did. They don't seem to the last couple games. It just stays on the base version even when the build list shows newer ships available. I'm not sure if it is due to a naming problem or something. Either way, I'll get feed back from Erik or you guys.

If anyone wants to test them out, I'll upload them below. I did make it so humans have the Novacore as a racial feature, so you will have to edit that in your race file or just edit the power plant to what you would prefer.

Edit- NTF stands for Neo-Terran Front from Freespace2. They were basically xenophobic human military dictatorship in that game. I added them into my game as another human empire that basically doesn't like anyone and is super aggressive.

Edit2- Must be name sensitive. I went back and renamed them all to clean it up and now it seems to be working. If this keeps up, I'll repost for those that want to test.

Hi Falokis

Thanks for you work generating those designs

In the next version (1.7.0.13) there are fixes that correct some problems with optimized designs sometimes not progressing properly. So that might be what you were seeing too.

Thanks
Elliot

Awesome. Thanks.

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Post #: 84
RE: Community Request - Customized Designs - 3/13/2012 12:19:21 AM   
jlevans


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Thanks for the wonderful support Elliot! I've never encountered a strategy game with this much long term potential.

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Post #: 85
RE: Community Request - Customized Designs - 3/13/2012 4:08:30 AM   
Falokis

 

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Okay.

For the community: Final version for humans. Should be compatible with any standard game. It includes all military ships and leaves private ships to the AI. Naming and builds are cleaned up. Good for anyone to use now. Have fun and give any feed back you like.


For the Devs: Please have a look for your own testing. I figured out if I load the designs (like previous versions of the game) after the game starts, it will start using them. The only problem I see that I cannot get around is the AI isn't building ships in the right amounts. The last couple of games has been almost 100% escorts and frigates with almost no other ships being made. This is even when these ships are available.

Edit - Devs: I've noticed the ship designs have no effect on the research decisions by the AI. I may have misunderstood, but I thought the ship models were supposed to influence research. If this is what is supposed to be happening, it's not currently in my games. It appears to me the AI is simply researching everything in order of tiers with no adjustments based on ship design.



Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Falokis -- 3/13/2012 5:28:32 AM >

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RE: Community Request - Customized Designs - 3/13/2012 9:32:52 AM   
onomastikon

 

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Thank you very much for these excellent replies. I am not a master at this, so may I pose a follow-up question here?

- I don't understand how to take into account every possibility. I mean, in some games, I will first research "advanced missiles" with my race, but in another game the same race might first research "advanced rail guns". There are so many contingencies. What I mean is: For "tech level 2" (which to me seems to be an ellipsis for a general level of advancement), there are hundreds of valid possibilities, am I supposed to build and save them all?!? That seems nigh on impossible. Sorry I really don't get it.
- I am not sure the automatic control still actually understands "automatically upgrade" and "retrofit" correctly: Sometimes I do not see the ships retrofitting, sometimes I get the popup to suggest retrofitting but I am not told what will be retrofitted how, and I am still not sure how to implement subroles (e.g. one cruiser with stronger defense and more shields and scanning, one cruiser with anti-planet abilities, one cruiser with anti-fighter, one cruiser with strong beams, and one cruiser with long-range missiles). Am I missing something?
- A really simple work-around still seems to me to be a checkbox in the design screen "make this component obsolete for this subrole". This would not help foreign AI races make better ship designs, but it would help my OWN race automatically upgrade its own designs: It would then stop using a certain engine or reactor type for those ships in the future. Would this be possible (and as easy to implement as I imagine)?

Thank you very, very much

(in reply to Falokis)
Post #: 87
RE: Community Request - Customized Designs - 3/13/2012 2:13:20 PM   
jlevans


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Hi Falokis,

Thanks for the human OD file. I took a brief look at a a few designs and they look pretty good. The naming by itself must have taken quite a while.

A suggestion - You may want to revisit the power levels of some of your designs. Reactors need to generate enough power to cover static, max weapons use per second, shield recharge and sprint usage combined. Otherwise, one or more of those doesn't get what it needs when it is important.

(in reply to Falokis)
Post #: 88
RE: Community Request - Customized Designs - 3/13/2012 9:24:09 PM   
Sithuk

 

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Falokis: You have prepared an excellent set of ship designs. Thank you for taking the time. I'm going to have to re-do mine, you've up'd the standard.

Your mining stations are heavily armed and shielded. That'll mean high maintenance costs that could hurt the AI.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Falokis

Okay.

For the community: Final version for humans. Should be compatible with any standard game. It includes all military ships and leaves private ships to the AI. Naming and builds are cleaned up. Good for anyone to use now. Have fun and give any feed back you like.


For the Devs: Please have a look for your own testing. I figured out if I load the designs (like previous versions of the game) after the game starts, it will start using them. The only problem I see that I cannot get around is the AI isn't building ships in the right amounts. The last couple of games has been almost 100% escorts and frigates with almost no other ships being made. This is even when these ships are available.

Edit - Devs: I've noticed the ship designs have no effect on the research decisions by the AI. I may have misunderstood, but I thought the ship models were supposed to influence research. If this is what is supposed to be happening, it's not currently in my games. It appears to me the AI is simply researching everything in order of tiers with no adjustments based on ship design.





< Message edited by Sithuk -- 3/13/2012 9:36:59 PM >

(in reply to Falokis)
Post #: 89
RE: Community Request - Customized Designs - 3/13/2012 9:25:34 PM   
Sithuk

 

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Jlevans: Remember that the power levels will depend on the tech level researched at the time. Part of the trouble with optimising is that the ship design must be optimised for the current tech level. When the tech level of the components increases then the attributes change.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlevans

Hi Falokis,

Thanks for the human OD file. I took a brief look at a a few designs and they look pretty good. The naming by itself must have taken quite a while.

A suggestion - You may want to revisit the power levels of some of your designs. Reactors need to generate enough power to cover static, max weapons use per second, shield recharge and sprint usage combined. Otherwise, one or more of those doesn't get what it needs when it is important.


(in reply to jlevans)
Post #: 90
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