Matrix Games Forums

Command gets Wargame of the Year EditionDeal of the Week: Pandora SeriesPandora: Eclipse of Nashira is now availableDistant Worlds Gets another updateHell is Approaching Deal of the Week Battle Academy Battle Academy 2 Out now!Legions of Steel ready for betaBattle Academy 2 gets trailers and Steam page!Deal of the Week Germany at War
Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

RE: Basic info on War in the West 43-45

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Gary Grigsby's War in the East Series >> RE: Basic info on War in the West 43-45 Page: <<   < prev  1 [2] 3 4 5   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: Basic info on War in the West 43-45 - 3/5/2012 1:50:50 PM   
HHI

 

Posts: 59
Joined: 9/13/2009
Status: offline
Colonel Glantz gives the losses to Army Group Center as 450,000, with another 100,000 lost, primarily as a result of Konev's operation south of the Pripyet marshes, a total of 550,000 men. Soviet losses were 243,500 kia and missing and 811,000 wounded. I submit this is approximately equal to all German forces in France.

(in reply to Walloc)
Post #: 31
RE: Basic info on War in the West 43-45 - 3/5/2012 8:42:48 PM   
Berkut

 

Posts: 757
Joined: 5/16/2002
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: EisenHammer


quote:

ORIGINAL: Berkut

Now, I am not trying to over-state the impact of the Western Front (or understate the primacy of the Eastern Front as the primary front in the war by any means), but I do think the pendulum sometimes swings a bit too far the other way, with no real realization of just how brutal the fighting was in June, July, and August of '44 in the West.




Here are some numbers that I got from my books.

German deaths in 1944 on the Eastern front
June 142,079
July 169,881
and August 277,465
for a total of 589,425 Germans deaths.
Source: Overmans

From D-Day to Sept 1st on the Western front the Germans around 70,000 deaths.




We seem to have a somewhat moving target here.

The claim was that in Bagrationa alone, the Germans had more losses than they committed to the entire Western Front.

Now, are we comparing losses everywhere on the Eastern Front to the West, or only those losses associated with Bagration? And now we are only talking about deaths, and ignoring wounded and captured? What about material losses?

If we are talking about comparing the entire fronts, then should we not include all the Germans involved on the Western Front, not just those in France? Everyone manning a AA gun, pilots, those in Italy? U-boat crews? Kriegsmarine?

(in reply to EisenHammer)
Post #: 32
RE: Basic info on War in the West 43-45 - 3/5/2012 8:56:52 PM   
Berkut

 

Posts: 757
Joined: 5/16/2002
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: HHI

Colonel Glantz gives the losses to Army Group Center as 450,000, with another 100,000 lost, primarily as a result of Konev's operation south of the Pripyet marshes, a total of 550,000 men. Soviet losses were 243,500 kia and missing and 811,000 wounded. I submit this is approximately equal to all German forces in France.



OK, I guess that could be true if we accept that every single German in France was killed, captured, or wounded during the Normandy operation?

Of course, coming up with a particular number is rather hard to do - what counts? Because there was certainly more than 500,000 total German troops in France between June 6th and September of 1944 - the Germans moved many troops in as the fighting continued, and very few left, so far as I am aware.

In any case, there is no doubt that the overall most of the Germans who were taken out of combat one way or another during those three months were taken out on the Eastern Front.

(in reply to HHI)
Post #: 33
RE: Basic info on War in the West 43-45 - 3/5/2012 9:47:00 PM   
EisenHammer


Posts: 428
Joined: 9/1/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Berkut
If we are talking about comparing the entire fronts, then should we not include all the Germans involved on the Western Front, not just those in France? Everyone manning a AA gun, pilots, those in Italy? U-boat crews? Kriegsmarine?


Yep... And as far as I know the 70,000 may include all of the above.

(in reply to Berkut)
Post #: 34
RE: Basic info on War in the West 43-45 - 3/5/2012 11:31:29 PM   
Berkut

 

Posts: 757
Joined: 5/16/2002
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: EisenHammer


quote:

ORIGINAL: Berkut
If we are talking about comparing the entire fronts, then should we not include all the Germans involved on the Western Front, not just those in France? Everyone manning a AA gun, pilots, those in Italy? U-boat crews? Kriegsmarine?


Yep... And as far as I know the 70,000 may include all of the above.


As far as I know, it may include none of the above. It may include deaths from natural causes, and people choking on bagels.

But more to the point, comparing deaths alone is misleading. Usually when someone is picking and choosing their stats to "compare" it is with some kind of intent to distort the reality. Why are you insisting at looking at only deaths? And why are you suddenly counting all of the Eastern Front, when the original issue was strictly Bagration?

The basic point is that German losses in the Normandy campaign were comparable to the losses from Bagration in total men, and in likely exceeded the losses in equipment. That doesn't mean the Eastern Front was not the (much) more critical front, of course, since there was more going on than just Bagration. Just like there was more going on in the West than just Normandy.

(in reply to EisenHammer)
Post #: 35
RE: Basic info on War in the West 43-45 - 3/6/2012 12:33:40 AM   
IronDuke

 

Posts: 1577
Joined: 6/30/2002
From: Manchester, UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

In the early 90s SSI published Gary's Western Front game. IIRC, it had 10 mile hexes and 4 day turns. Like WitW, it included the strategic bombing campaign as well as France and Italy. It used the system that had been used to do Second Front (and later War in Russia), which had been 20 mile hexes and 7 day turns. WitW will indeed feel different in some ways from WitE, and we will no doubt face challenges during development (always do), but it's more than just Normandy, and we believe it will make for an enjoyable game. We're going to give it our best shot.


Joel,
I don't doubt Gary and 2by3's heritage, track record or quality, my point is that your scale here cannot produce an operational wargame.

I accept that it will be more than just Normandy, but surely you would accept that if it can't operationally simulate Normandy, then that is a grave issue for an operational wargame.

On the night of 5th/6th June, the Americans dropped 2 airborne divisions into a box roughly bounded by Carentan-the coast-Montebourg. They then put 4th infantry onto the beach at Utah. In WitW terms, this all happened within a single hex. A hex that must also contain German forces in the shape of a reinforced Regiment from 709 Infantry Division.

From one end of Gold to the drop zones of the 6th Airborne (three beaches and 6th Airborne's landings on the other side of the Orne) is about two hexes.

I can only repeat what I said in my initial post. Operationally, WitW 1944 summer Campaign will be about 8-10 hexes of dense combat in Normandy and 6 across the Gustav line. In WitE terms, the two combined are about the distance between Riga and Daugavpils. Once the Allies breakout and the battlefield becomes the length of France, the Germans are done for anyway so at no point is there any prospect of an operational wargame appearing before the miracle in the west. At that point, assuming he can get bad weather (which for non random will be pretty predictable), the German player has a single (largely pointless) 4-5 hex offensive to launch for 3-4 turns starting in December.

To put this into a little more context, the Velikie Luki scenario in WitE (a scenario described in the blurb as "a very small tutorial scenario") is five hexes wide and 10 turns long. In size, if not unit density, it is what the "American 12th Army Group in Normandy" scenario will look like in WitW.

You've mentioned the addition of a new air model for strategic bombing.

By the summer of 1944, the Luftwaffe had all but shot its bolt. Allied loss rates were declining, German replacements were not keeping up with losses and the Mustangs and Thunderbolts were escorting bombers all over the operational area taking out increasingly inexperienced and poorly trained Luftwaffe pilots as they went.

In other words, the addition of the strategic air model for the 1944 campaign basically just gives the Allied player some decisions to make on what targets he will hit (with relative impunity) within German occupied Europe on a weekly basis. It'll become largely formulaic after the first wave of AARs.

We don't need to discuss the naval rules as AXIS options in 1944 amount to "deploy Canoe?"

At these sorts of scales, I don't really see a campaign game there.

1943 is in some ways more problematic. The bombing campaign will be a bit more interesting (although the result will never be in doubt) but for the first 50 turns, land combat will never consist of much more than a 6 hex slugfest across the Italian Peninsula and another hex (or possibly two) eventually at Anzio.

Indeed, if Anzio is deemed two hexes, the Germans end up probably having to cover a front line around 20 miles longer than they did in real life for the same bridgehead at these scales.

One week turns will mean that wherever the Allied player puts his 6 infantry and 3 airborne divisions when he lands in France in May-June 1944 (it will never be any other time), the AXIS player will rope it off in his week turn and you'll end up with a second small scale slugfest for about 10 turns until the AXIS player turns and runs.

Indeed, I'd probably finish by asking what is the AXIS experience going to be like?

By the summer of 44, you're only shuffling deckchairs in the bombing game. In the land game, your operational choices amount to (in France) which of your Panzer Divisions go in which of the 3-4 hexes that face the British, and (in Italy)...well... you've nothing to do once your units are in place.

In France, defeat for AXIS is completely unavoidable, since once you've roped off the bridgehead, you don't have enough forces left to prevent Dragoon a few weeks later however well things go against the main landing.

As the AXIS player, there are no replacements to speak of (outside of replacements from the damaged portion of your forces), movement costs will be double what the Allied player's are (since German units largely moved only at night). Alternatively, you can move normally, but be relentlessly interdicted in every hex. You've no air power, no chance of defeating the landings when they come and only a steady attritional battle for around 10 turns to look forward to before fleeing for the Rhine.

All of this is well intended comment, since I want to play this game, and the ones that will follow it. However, at these scales, it is more WaW than WitE.

You can only pad this out as an operational game, and give the AXIS player more freedom, more choices and more possibilities, by reducing the scale to Regiments/battalions, 2 miles a hex and a day or two turns.

Or put another way, exactly how operational will 50 turns of attritional combat, involving 20 divisions across 6 hexes in the 1943 campaign feel to an AXIS player who, in his other game, has just shifted around 200+ divisional units across 75-120 hexes.

Very respectfully yours,
IronDuke

P.S. I include what I originally said below as it gives more examples and detail on the perceived issue.

quote:


quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

2. Scale is the same for WitW 43-45 and all WitW/WitE/WiE games, 10 miles per hex, weekly turns.



I'm not a wargame designer, so I am not best placed to comment, but I don't think you'll pull it off at this scale.
I sincerely hope (and don't doubt given your track record) that you'll prove me wrong, and this is a well meaning, well intended and very respectful comment, but...

In the summer of 1944, the Germans didn't have enough forces in western Europe to defend any length of front. They held onto France for 3 months because they could rope off and contain a bridgehead, which meant they could generate a high unit density against the Allies and their overwhelming firepower with the limited forces they had.

At your distance scales, the Germans and Allies face off against each other across 8-10 hexes in Normandy.

If the Germans spread out across France to gain more operational room, then they are overwhelmed in short order. For there to be any sort of western front campaign, therefore, the Germans need to rope off a bridgehead and I don't know that WITW 43-45 can get truly operational within your time and distance constraints. In other words, the entire Normandy campaign at these scales is ten turns across ten hexes. Once the Allied player broke out and gained room for some manouvre in France, the Germans would be essentially beaten anyway, so it becomes slightly beside the point. 10 hexes is not an operational wargame IM (very) HO.

Italy is even more problematic. You can have operational timescales here (100 turns?), but the Gustav line makes for an operational wargame around 8 hexes wide. In other words, the game is going to be largely devoid of any form of manouvre, and instead be generally single or dual hex offensives with Corp sized counters.

As a follow up, I think the widest part of the Bulge the Germans created in the Ardennes was about 4-5 hexes across on your scales.

In short (and I repeat very respectfully) there's no manouvre at these scales for WITW. To get some semblance of manourvre, you can't give the Germans more forces and you can't somehow make Normandy bigger, but you can make the scale smaller so creating the manouvre by making 100 miles cover more hexes, and making 30 divisional counters become 150 regimental ones or 500 battalion sized ones.

I fully appreciate that would give you some issues when you came to synchronise and join up the various titles, but with computing power what it is, these days, those would surely not be insurmountable.

quote:

quote:

WitW 40 and WitW 41-43 will include a much more detailed naval game, but not at the level of detail of WitP-AE. Gary will be designing an entirely new naval system for those games that will provide a major naval component necessary to do the a possible Sea Lion, actions in the Med, and eventually an entire War in Europe.


For Sea Lion to be possible, you will need a "disband the RN" option available to the AXIS player. Allied fanboys will create quite a stir about that...;-)

Very, very respectfully yours,
IronDuke

< Message edited by IronDuke -- 3/3/2012 11:21:50 PM >

(in reply to Joel Billings)
Post #: 36
RE: Basic info on War in the West 43-45 - 3/6/2012 12:57:08 AM   
IronDuke

 

Posts: 1577
Joined: 6/30/2002
From: Manchester, UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Berkut


quote:

ORIGINAL: EisenHammer


quote:

ORIGINAL: Berkut
If we are talking about comparing the entire fronts, then should we not include all the Germans involved on the Western Front, not just those in France? Everyone manning a AA gun, pilots, those in Italy? U-boat crews? Kriegsmarine?


Yep... And as far as I know the 70,000 may include all of the above.


As far as I know, it may include none of the above. It may include deaths from natural causes, and people choking on bagels.

But more to the point, comparing deaths alone is misleading. Usually when someone is picking and choosing their stats to "compare" it is with some kind of intent to distort the reality. Why are you insisting at looking at only deaths? And why are you suddenly counting all of the Eastern Front, when the original issue was strictly Bagration?

The basic point is that German losses in the Normandy campaign were comparable to the losses from Bagration in total men, and in likely exceeded the losses in equipment. That doesn't mean the Eastern Front was not the (much) more critical front, of course, since there was more going on than just Bagration. Just like there was more going on in the West than just Normandy.



You're wrong in the first part, probably wrong in the second.

Human casualties in the west probably amounted to around 210, 000. In the east during Bagration, they were around 400, 000.

The Germans lost 4050 Tanks and assault guns between 1st June and 31st August 1944 on all fronts. The Germans sent 2336 of these vehicles to Normandy and didn't lose them all so it is unlikely the losses were greater than in the east.

The other issue is what was lost.

Most of the tail of the German units escaped the pincer at Falaise and made it home. Casualties were therefore confined to the Infantry and tank arms. In the east, units disappeared in their entireity. I suspect this means your equipment argument is also wrong since entire divisions disappearing would have meant the entire artillery, vehicle and suppporting arms park going with them. In France, this often got away.

Regards,
IronDuke


(in reply to Berkut)
Post #: 37
RE: Basic info on War in the West 43-45 - 3/6/2012 1:03:14 AM   
Joel Billings


Posts: 21387
Joined: 9/20/2000
From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: online
It will feel different.

Nothing compares to the Eastern Front when it comes to land combat. I understand what you're saying, but we're going with 10 miles hexes. There will be a robust air game that allows for the strategic bombing campaign, and scenarios that start in May 44 and June 43 that allow players to adjust their invasion sites (but have to consider issues of air/naval superiority) and June 44 and July 43 scenarios with historical landings (at least that's the plan).

ALPHA ART ALERT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The screenshot shows the German set up as of May 44 in Italy. This is alpha data and alpha artwork. In the final product, the map will look more like the WitE map art (we are still adjusting the data, map painting won't start for awhile). We have spent most of our time with the 43 campaign to date, but Trey recently started putting together the May 44 scenario so I thought I'd show you this.




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

All understanding comes after the fact.
-- Soren Kierkegaard

(in reply to IronDuke)
Post #: 38
RE: Basic info on War in the West 43-45 - 3/6/2012 1:28:39 AM   
IronDuke

 

Posts: 1577
Joined: 6/30/2002
From: Manchester, UK
Status: offline


No place names on an alpha map, but assume the ports are Naples and Civitavecchia and the Germans are sat in the Gustav Line? Tiber, Liri and Liri valley all nicely defined and FJ entrenched in Cassino.

Very nice.

As I said earlier, all my comments are as well intended as can possibly be and I'm sure I'll buy however you do it...;-)

Regards,
ID


(in reply to Joel Billings)
Post #: 39
RE: Basic info on War in the West 43-45 - 3/6/2012 3:37:39 AM   
EisenHammer


Posts: 428
Joined: 9/1/2008
Status: offline
Thanks for showing a screenshot of the Italian front. I am looking forward too getting War in the West as soon as it is out.

But the mini-map looks like the game will cover all of Europe and the Middle East.

< Message edited by EisenHammer -- 3/6/2012 3:41:50 AM >

(in reply to IronDuke)
Post #: 40
RE: Basic info on War in the West 43-45 - 3/6/2012 8:32:50 AM   
wosung

 

Posts: 612
Joined: 7/18/2005
Status: offline
Fixed airfields on the map?

Best regards


Edit: Grand European map looks ... gigantic. Any plans to contain the resulting clickfeast in an eventual War in Europe?

< Message edited by wosung -- 3/6/2012 8:39:03 AM >

(in reply to Joel Billings)
Post #: 41
RE: Basic info on War in the West 43-45 - 3/6/2012 8:48:53 AM   
redmarkus4


Posts: 4104
Joined: 12/1/2007
From: 0.00
Status: offline
Expertly put and very compelling. I share these concerns and have a few more.

The screenie from Joel doesn't really rebut Iron Duke's points. In fact, it emphasizes the narrow frontage across which war will rage for the better part of 2 years and when compared to WitE, the Italian campaign isn't going to hold many people's interest for long.

It would be even more enlightening to see a screenie of Normandy, where ID has focused his remarks, or of the Bastogne area to get a sense of how many hexes the Bulge would cover.

No doubt it's too late now, but the better strategy might have been:

1. Develop WitE 2 FIRST, with a full Europe map and whatever other game enhancements are possible, especially the addition of Axis industry and infrastructure along BtR lines.
2. THEN expand WitE 2 to cover the whole European war, including an option to play WitE 2-only plus the strategic bombing campaign up to June '44. (Unit withdrawals would reflect events in other theatres).
3. Finally, add some Scenarios for Normandy, Sicily, Italy and 1940, etc.

_____________________________

Cyberpower tower PC
Intel Core i7-3930k CPU, 3.20GHz processor
32 GB RAM
2TB HD
2xNVIDIA GeForce GTX 680 graphics cards, each with 4095 MB
Realtek sound card
Dell 3007WFP (running at 2560x1600) 32 bit monitor
Windows 7 Professional 64-bit O

(in reply to IronDuke)
Post #: 42
RE: Basic info on War in the West 43-45 - 3/6/2012 10:25:39 AM   
janh

 

Posts: 1224
Joined: 6/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

It will feel different.

Nothing compares to the Eastern Front when it comes to land combat. I understand what you're saying, but we're going with 10 miles hexes. There will be a robust air game that allows for the strategic bombing campaign, and scenarios that start in May 44 and June 43 that allow players to adjust their invasion sites (but have to consider issues of air/naval superiority) and June 44 and July 43 scenarios with historical landings (at least that's the plan).

ALPHA ART ALERT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The screenshot shows the German set up as of May 44 in Italy. This is alpha data and alpha artwork. In the final product, the map will look more like the WitE map art (we are still adjusting the data, map painting won't start for awhile). We have spent most of our time with the 43 campaign to date, but Trey recently started putting together the May 44 scenario so I thought I'd show you this.



Indeed, the European map looks great. Makes me wonder how the CONUSA bases or Capetown etc. will be taken into account for a War in Europe, given it will ever come? Presumably that will require an exention of the map, or simply neglect any Atlantic/Medit. convoy warfare a la WitP:AE. I hope that you will introduce the latter in the 39-42 titles. And I hope that even simplified naval rules will mean level of detail not to far from AE. That would be very important on my list, not sure how others view that. Not sure how to do that exactly with I-Go-U-Go. I'd rather wish for the AE system there (again) -- just seems offer much more realism and possibilities.

Note those little green crosses on the map! Will that mean that players in the future can also build air fields? Would certainly be necessary for a WiTE2, if this be combined with static airfields.

Also, since there will be strategic bombing -- how exactly will that work? By specifying certain groups with mission orders, that are then executed once the turn is ended? Or also right-click...?

What targets will be available? Presumably, since this title will cover the final phase of the war, all of Germany, Austria etc. will have to be modelled completely with (rail) infrastructure and industries? So will there be specific factories at specific locations, not just an abstracted list like in WitE?
Also, how about bombing rail way bridges and rail yards or other "logistic" infrastructure?



(in reply to Joel Billings)
Post #: 43
RE: Basic info on War in the West 43-45 - 3/6/2012 5:35:37 PM   
Kubel


Posts: 131
Joined: 11/4/2007
From: Canadian mosquito infested swamp
Status: offline
I'm salivating waiting for this. Do you have a ballpark release date?
Such as;
a) Less than 12 months
b) 12-18 months or
c) 18 plus months

I know its hard to predict and I can understand a reluctance say
begging toss me a bone please.

_____________________________

Don
"Our profession should always be crowned by heroic death in battle" Generalfeldmarschall Fedor von Bock

(in reply to Joel Billings)
Post #: 44
RE: Basic info on War in the West 43-45 - 3/6/2012 9:22:29 PM   
Helpless


Posts: 11875
Joined: 8/27/2004
Status: online
quote:

Or also right-click...?


No. It will be all the way different.

_____________________________

Pavel Zagzin
WITE/WITW Development

(in reply to janh)
Post #: 45
RE: Basic info on War in the West 43-45 - 3/7/2012 12:27:33 AM   
IronDuke

 

Posts: 1577
Joined: 6/30/2002
From: Manchester, UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4

Expertly put and very compelling. I share these concerns and have a few more.

The screenie from Joel doesn't really rebut Iron Duke's points. In fact, it emphasizes the narrow frontage across which war will rage for the better part of 2 years and when compared to WitE, the Italian campaign isn't going to hold many people's interest for long.




That would be the gist of my comments. The screenshot looks great, and I am sure it will look even better when finished, but it represents the sum total of the land fighting for perhaps the first fifty turns of the 1943 campaign. Operational options are limited to non existant for both sides and there is little or no replayability. Now, that isn't 2by3's fault, the war in the west is what it was in Italy, but I think you exacerbate that issue with big hexes rather than negate it.

I fully appreciate that there are important financial and business aspects to these sorts of decisions, but I don't see that there are three full priced games to be had in the western theatre at these scales.

I purchased, but have never played unfortunately, Schwerpunkt's take on this, but they played 7.5 mile hexes and weekly turns, and carried the entire war in the west from 1939-45.

Regards,
ID

(in reply to redmarkus4)
Post #: 46
RE: Basic info on War in the West 43-45 - 3/7/2012 12:46:21 AM   
Joel Billings


Posts: 21387
Joined: 9/20/2000
From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: online
There will be scearios, long and short, big and small. I'm not going to be able to convince you through writing that what we are doing will turn into a good game, or series of games (I'd rather be working on the game than debating it anyway). We will just have to prove it. I won't be going into more detail for awhile as there are just too many things in flux to make it worthwhile and we'll have time to answer the questions in the future. I just thought some of you would enjoy seeing a sneek peek. Thanks to those wishing us luck (as well as those purchasing Don to the Danube as a sign of support for WitE and our future games).

And yes, airfields are part of the map, not units like in WitE.

_____________________________

All understanding comes after the fact.
-- Soren Kierkegaard

(in reply to redmarkus4)
Post #: 47
RE: Basic info on War in the West 43-45 - 3/7/2012 1:43:37 AM   
IronDuke

 

Posts: 1577
Joined: 6/30/2002
From: Manchester, UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

There will be scearios, long and short, big and small. I'm not going to be able to convince you through writing that what we are doing will turn into a good game, or series of games (I'd rather be working on the game than debating it anyway). We will just have to prove it.


Joel,
I genuinely wish you every success and don't doubt I'll regret these observations in X months when it comes out. I'm not attempting to undermine, upset, hack off or otherwise troll here.

These are simply observations backed by illustrative examples, examples which can be refuted or challenged. I wouldn't post critique without examples that people could analyse themselves and give me grief over if they felt I deserved it.

Additionally, I don't get any particularly pleasure from any of this since in addition to setting myself up for a fall in X months when you deliver a wargame of the year, I'm also likely ruining whatever miniscule chance I had of beta testing work if you ever made the call.

However, in the period when there are "many things in flux", I think it worth raising these concerns simply because even the "right" decisions should be challenged and examined in order to confirm their validity.

On the basis that the 1943 campaign is the biggest scenario, in that it covers the entire scope of the game within one scenario, then your screenshot (as enticing and promising as it is) represents the entire scope of the land fighting for around 50 turns. It is a frontline 9 hexes long and is served by a German OOB of around 20 Divisions.

When the weather is bad in this "Italy alone" stage of the scenario, land activity in those turns will (as Rundstedt is famously alleged to have once said) consist of choosing when to change the Guard on the HQ gate. I don't doubt there will be an air campaign to manage (although nothing of any consequence re naval at this stage in the war) but what you've posted is where all the Ground Combat will take place until approximately turn 53.

However, I thank you for politely and patiently entertaining my nonsense, I wish you all the very best in your endeavours, I look forward to seeing the best possible product in the shortest possible time and I thank you for the several hours of fun I will have tomorrow driving hard for Leningrad, Kiev and Smolensk in the new WitE GC 41 I just started.

All the very best,
IronDuke






(in reply to Joel Billings)
Post #: 48
RE: Basic info on War in the West 43-45 - 3/7/2012 9:45:35 AM   
dassie

 

Posts: 12
Joined: 7/25/2011
Status: offline
Can you make to able merge with war in the east Joel ?

(in reply to Joel Billings)
Post #: 49
RE: Basic info on War in the West 43-45 - 3/7/2012 9:59:09 AM   
Apollo11


Posts: 22590
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline
Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: dassie

Can you make to able merge with war in the east Joel ?


One day, hopefully, as Joel wrote here several time, there will be one all encompassing "War in the Europe"!


Leo "Apollo11"

_____________________________



Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

(in reply to dassie)
Post #: 50
RE: Basic info on War in the West 43-45 - 3/7/2012 8:29:09 PM   
morvael


Posts: 4259
Joined: 9/8/2006
From: Poland
Status: offline
Imagine the map size and the hex count in a "War in the World", that would be an all encompassing game :)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings
And yes, airfields are part of the map, not units like in WitE.


I know I sound like an ignorant fool, but I would love WitE with airfields as part of the map instead of units. Sometimes when I play the Axis I think there are thrice the number of counters in HQ, airbases and RR units - than in real combat units. From other games (including board games) I'm used to reverse proportions :)

< Message edited by morvael -- 3/7/2012 8:32:23 PM >

(in reply to Apollo11)
Post #: 51
RE: Basic info on War in the West 43-45 - 3/8/2012 3:44:06 PM   
amatteucci

 

Posts: 318
Joined: 5/14/2000
From: ITALY
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4
No doubt it's too late now, but the better strategy might have been:

1. Develop WitE 2 FIRST, with a full Europe map and whatever other game enhancements are possible, especially the addition of Axis industry and infrastructure along BtR lines.
2. THEN expand WitE 2 to cover the whole European war, including an option to play WitE 2-only plus the strategic bombing campaign up to June '44. (Unit withdrawals would reflect events in other theatres).
3. Finally, add some Scenarios for Normandy, Sicily, Italy and 1940, etc.

I agree that it's probably too late now to implement such a strategy.
On the other hand I do think that it's not too late to release WitW as a "War in Europe 1943-1945" game.
As I said in another thread: the map is already done, the OoB work for eastern armies is already done. No further engine changes are needed other than the ones currently worked on for WitW (simply because a detailed naval model is not indispensable for such a game).

(in reply to redmarkus4)
Post #: 52
RE: Basic info on War in the West 43-45 - 3/8/2012 4:03:28 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 32915
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline
I think the scale concerns would be more valid if we were aiming to create a different kind of game that focused on exploring some of these battles on a more operational level. You could have made the same argument for any operation in War in the East as well. Joel and Gary have already worked at this scale and at higher scales for the Western Front and the result was a great game. I honestly think that if you need a proof of concept, you can find it in their past published work. War in the West will give you a scope that goes far beyond a single battle or operation or region and the freedom to decide how to win the War in the West.

Regards,

- Erik

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
Director of Product Development


For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to amatteucci)
Post #: 53
RE: Basic info on War in the West 43-45 - 3/9/2012 12:24:56 AM   
Michael T


Posts: 2373
Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: online
Battle for the Atlantic/U-Boats ?



_____________________________

'Deus le Volt!'
------------------

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 54
RE: Basic info on War in the West 43-45 - 3/9/2012 6:18:40 AM   
Micke II


Posts: 213
Joined: 9/15/2007
From: Paris France
Status: offline
Introduction of a WEGO system and a true replay sequence will add definitely a plus to WITW.

(in reply to Michael T)
Post #: 55
RE: Basic info on War in the West 43-45 - 3/9/2012 6:43:39 PM   
Joel Billings


Posts: 21387
Joined: 9/20/2000
From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: online
Just to clear things up, WitW will still be IGOUGO, however, there are significant changes with a unique air phase for resolution of most types of air missions, as well as special sequencing for amphibious invasions that are ordered in one player turn and resolved during the next player's player turn.

As for the Battle of the Atlantic, not in WitW 43-45 (other than abstract attrition on sea movement, but it will be coming in WitW 40, as well a more involved naval game (although there are some new sea control aspects to WitW 43-45 that are more advanced than in WitE).

_____________________________

All understanding comes after the fact.
-- Soren Kierkegaard

(in reply to Micke II)
Post #: 56
RE: Basic info on War in the West 43-45 - 3/9/2012 8:40:04 PM   
Michael T


Posts: 2373
Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: online
BoA in 1940. I look forward to that

_____________________________

'Deus le Volt!'
------------------

(in reply to Joel Billings)
Post #: 57
RE: Basic info on War in the West 43-45 - 3/9/2012 9:08:04 PM   
Smirfy

 

Posts: 356
Joined: 7/16/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

I think the scale concerns would be more valid if we were aiming to create a different kind of game that focused on exploring some of these battles on a more operational level. You could have made the same argument for any operation in War in the East as well. Joel and Gary have already worked at this scale and at higher scales for the Western Front and the result was a great game. I honestly think that if you need a proof of concept, you can find it in their past published work. War in the West will give you a scope that goes far beyond a single battle or operation or region and the freedom to decide how to win the War in the West.

Regards,

- Erik


From the scale chosen the actual “game” will be reliant on working mechanics for logistics, comand and control and politics to carry it. (in those three WITE fell on its face which incidently was a surprise given Garys civil war game). From the sceenshot there is nothing to suggest WITW will be any different.

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 58
RE: Basic info on War in the West 43-45 - 3/9/2012 10:52:06 PM   
pompack


Posts: 2520
Joined: 2/8/2004
From: University Park, Texas
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Smirfy
From the scale chosen the actual “game” will be reliant on working mechanics for logistics, comand and control and politics to carry it. (in those three WITE fell on its face which incidently was a surprise given Garys civil war game). From the sceenshot there is nothing to suggest WITW will be any different.




Each to his own I suppose

As a contrary opinion, 1) WitE logistics are comparable to similar games but certainly need improvement even for WitE, 2) C&C is by far the best model I have seen (but can still be improved of course), and 3) I don't see where politics is even applicable to WitE (although inter-Allied friction will certainly be a factor in WitW).

(in reply to Smirfy)
Post #: 59
RE: Basic info on War in the West 43-45 - 3/10/2012 1:44:11 AM   
IronDuke

 

Posts: 1577
Joined: 6/30/2002
From: Manchester, UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

I think the scale concerns would be more valid if we were aiming to create a different kind of game that focused on exploring some of these battles on a more operational level.


Well, as a serial offender when it comes to holding invalid concerns , my first reaction to this was that given that the individual units will (presumably) be modelled down to individual squads, tanks and artillery pieces, and the screenshot above saw the deployment of some Regimental sized units, how can the game avoid exploring these battles at the operational level?

My second reaction was that are we now saying that the game is not intended to be a detailed operational simulation of the land fighting in the western theatre? Is that how we should interpret the fact the game is not "focused on exploring some of these battles on a more operational level".

With respect, whilst a new air model and naval model will be nice, it was boots on the ground and operational art that liberated France and Italy. A naval model for anything bar a few months in the mediterranearn version of the game, and 2-3 turns in the 1940 game, will be largely pointless given the Kriegsmarine lacked the fuel, tonnage or numbers to trouble the RN, particularly in the period 43-45 covered by this first title.

Likewise in the air, this first game is set in a period of Allied Air supremacy. Whatever the Allied player chooses to bomb in the air portion of the game, waves of P-51s and P-47s will attrit the Luftwaffe to nothing by turn 50 of the 1943 campaign, whatever the AXIS player attempts to do (unless he puts everything into national reserve).

Which essentially brings us to the one section of the game where the Allies didn't have it all their own way, being unable to prevent a well organised fighting withdrawl from sicily, having to crawl a bloody crawl up Italy, and having to slug it out in the Bocage for three months before gaining space to manouvre.

Arguably, the only part of the WitW which gives the Germans any options (although these are all still slim) is the ground fighting, and it is precisely this part which is to be played out at a scale that will largely remove meaningful manouvre and decision making.

quote:

You could have made the same argument for any operation in War in the East as well.


Some might have argued that the WITE scale should have been smaller, TOAW Fire in the East used smaller scales for example, but to be fair, what we got was still an operational tour de force whatever your preference. It is not an easy argument to sustain (I certainly wouldn't care to advocate it) with relation to WitE, but it surely has more mileage here given the scale of the front lines when measured in 10 mile hexes.

quote:

Joel and Gary have already worked at this scale and at higher scales for the Western Front and the result was a great game. I honestly think that if you need a proof of concept, you can find it in their past published work.


This is not in dispute, although surely part of their success is sustaining design decisions in the face of challenge, articulating why they are right. They also presumably wouldn't claim to be infallible, since these sorts of decisions may not be made purely on game design grounds. Would it be fair to say that much of WitW will look like it does because of the design decisions taken when WitE was being designed?

Finally, I'd (with the very greatest of respect and a gentle tone) point out that the man who gave us the cinematic magnificence that is Star Wars, also gave the world Howard the Duck. Past performance is not a guarantee of future....etc etc etc.

quote:

War in the West will give you a scope that goes far beyond a single battle or operation or region and the freedom to decide how to win the War in the West.


Well, firstly, the game is surely fundamentally broken if the Germans can beat the western Allies from an historical starting position in either 43 or 44. If this is a turn of phrase (one to note down for the publicity blurb, it was a nice soundbite ), and what you mean is "lose less bad" a la the victory models for WITP and WitE, then I would continue to argue that it is absolutely essential that the ground combat is modelled meaningfully because only here can the Germans affect the outcome.

It might be possible to delay the Allies further in Italy, or snuff out the Anzio landing. It might be possible to hang on an extra week in the Overlord lodgement area, or give up the Bulge assault as the hopeless task that it was and use the armoured forces thus preserved to blunt the assault on the Rhine for a few days, or even make the Allied player more cautious.

However, A german player won't win by using a more detailed naval model to sortie the Kriegmarine's assorted E-boats and Canoes into the channel, and you won't delay anything using the more detailed air model, since even if your opponent was an early Hominid and couldn't win the air battle over Germany with the resources the Allies deployed, then that wouldn't prevent the Allies landing in France and sweeping all before them when they were ready. It's a numbers game and the Germans can't win it.

Therefore, since the Allies can't win without ground combat liberating territory, and the Germans can only hope to trip the Allies up within the ground combat segments using ground combat elements, it is absolutely essential that this is modelled at a scale that gives the German player some scope to make meaningful choices. I don't see many choices are 10 miles per hex.

A good tactician might be able to outfight me at a small scale and hold me up. At a big scale, it becomes much more difficult since you are facing off across far fewer hexes.

Now, my suspicion is that the Gustav line is 9 hexes long because you didn't want the distance between Riga and Daugapils to be 25 hexes long. If we are playing 10 mile hexes because there is no commercial case for the effort required to convert the current game engine to a smaller scale, then fine. I'm a grown up, an Analyst by profession and I can understand that. I'll stop labouring the point and move on.

However, I need to understand this, not least because these four projected games are likely to relieve me of 200-300 USD over the next few years. Budget is not an issue, I've brought from Matrix and never played simply to support an engine onto the next in series which was more interesting to me, but it is much harder with these sorts of reservations and answers which don't feel particularly transparent.

As with everything I've said in this thread, this is all meant in the best possible and most constructive sense. No one will be happier than me if someone can deconstruct my reasoning, I want these games, I want to play these titles, and if you choose, just ignore my questions and I'll go away, I'm not trolling.

All the very best,
ID

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 60
Page:   <<   < prev  1 [2] 3 4 5   next >   >>
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Gary Grigsby's War in the East Series >> RE: Basic info on War in the West 43-45 Page: <<   < prev  1 [2] 3 4 5   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.117