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RE: Basic info on War in the West 43-45

 
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RE: Basic info on War in the West 43-45 - 5/5/2014 11:33:18 AM   
governato

 

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I think most players of WITE are quite happy with the current way production is set, but they get very frustrated when the game evolves in a way that certain items are over/under produced (say too many tanks when the front is static, but not enough artillery).
This is certainly not realistic, and probably as unrealistic as giving full production control to the players.

But, having the ability to change the emphasis on production within say 10-15% (or any historical estimate of the flexibility in the production chain on a timescale of several months ) would not bring the game into fantasy/strategic land and would let the players adapt to the specific situation, pretty much as in real life (think Guderian restructuring tank production in '43). This could just be a simple option to be chosen by the players within a certain time frame. This solution 'd go a long way resolving players' unease with the Axis production, without setting the game on a slippery slope towards Hearts of Iron or other strategic level games.




< Message edited by governato -- 5/5/2014 1:39:00 PM >

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RE: Basic info on War in the West 43-45 - 5/5/2014 3:53:20 PM   
rrbill

 

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Well said. Your rant has quieted my disappointment with WitE restrictions to production & equipment management.

But what do you think allowing German aircraft production & assignment changes and making Soviet force structure builds a key factor in WitE?

For that matter, WitE does go too far (IMHO) with detail ToE's, equipment variations, or leadership data. Research is impressive, but at what cost to game play and game features?

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RE: Basic Info on War in the West 43-45 - 5/5/2014 6:45:31 PM   
Joel Billings


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Erik is guessing there will be a WitW forum by the end of May or June. Maybe on June 6?

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RE: Basic Info on War in the West 43-45 - 5/6/2014 12:42:12 AM   
Numdydar

 

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One simple way to control the hindsight issue with production is gearing limits like in World in Flames and other games. You could have gearing limits on research too like in the Commander series. Where you cannot increase research in one area until all areas have the same level lads. So no 2 level labs until everything has a level 1 lab.

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RE: Basic Info on War in the West 43-45 - 5/9/2014 5:03:28 PM   
HMSWarspite

 

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Even with constraints on research, there is still the issue that players will always analyze the pure stats of each item and then just build the best (or at least the combination that gives the best bang for buck). For example, a player would just build P51 as the standard US fighter, yet real issues means the US actually built P51, P38 and P47 in parallel (not to mention F6F, F4U, etc). Unless the economics system makes that not a stupid option (assuming the US ordering system wasn't stupid), any game is just fantasy. Even limited shifts would worry me, although mostly because once you allow say +/-10% the debates on 'why no 11%, or 15%...' start.

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RE: Basic Info on War in the West 43-45 - 5/14/2014 7:54:07 PM   
BJP III

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HMSWarspite

Even with constraints on research, there is still the issue that players will always analyze the pure stats of each item and then just build the best (or at least the combination that gives the best bang for buck). For example, a player would just build P51 as the standard US fighter, yet real issues means the US actually built P51, P38 and P47 in parallel (not to mention F6F, F4U, etc). Unless the economics system makes that not a stupid option (assuming the US ordering system wasn't stupid), any game is just fantasy. Even limited shifts would worry me, although mostly because once you allow say +/-10% the debates on 'why no 11%, or 15%...' start.



Exactly. There are two separate (but related) problems. First, by virtue of hindsight, we know what the most successful designs will be, so it is easy to make all the "right" decisions in terms of production, way ahead of schedule. Second, and more game-specific, it is easy to max/min the attributes of each weapons system based on the game data and mechanics, so you can end up with an army stacked with a bizarre and historically impossible allocation of weapons -- like 33% Hetzers, 33% Flammpanzers and 33% 75mm-sporting halftracks, with the Landsers carrying 50% SMGs and 50% flamethrowers. (NOTE -- these are not based on the WITE values, but on a certain other game that I have spent way too much time playing over the years).

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RE: Basic info on War in the West 43-45 - 5/23/2014 1:08:10 AM   
ironduke1955


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I would like to pre-order (Joke) WitE 2.0 would this be potentially a 6 player game Germany USSR United Kingdom France Italy and USA.
Or two player like WitE 1.0. Be Great. But as I a getting older I am concerned that by the date of release I may have problems remembering my wife's name let alone playing a game of this complexity.

To Answer my own question yes it will be 6 player and Don't hold your breath LOL

< Message edited by ironduke1955 -- 5/24/2014 5:16:42 AM >

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RE: Basic info on War in the West 43-45 - 6/2/2014 10:47:31 AM   
HattiusRattius

 

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Perhaps this is a bit late in the day but I have a request. I have recently come back to this game and have been using a Map Mod written by a chap called Jison. Apart from being a very good mod there is one specific element to this mod I find extremely helpful, which is the soft factor display on the left hand of the counter using horizontal lines instead of the usual colour codes from the original game.

Being colour blind I obviously find the use of this mod extremely beneficial. Can something like this be implemented in the upcoming War in the West or is this a bit late in the day to be asking this ?

quote:

Any Fool Can Be Cold

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RE: Basic info on War in the West 43-45 - 6/15/2014 10:02:20 PM   
daniel123

 

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I just came back from your official 2x3 site no update there in a long time
http://2by3games.com/

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RE: Basic info on War in the West 43-45 - 6/20/2014 11:16:14 PM   
Joel Billings


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You're right. We're too busy working on the game to post anything. A poor excuse but it's the truth since we don't have anyone dedicated to posting on our site.

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RE: Basic info on War in the West 43-45 - 6/21/2014 12:36:03 AM   
Blond_Knight


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Wow. I just clicked on their site and noticed that Joel looks suspiciously like Hans Gruber.
"Joel"


Hans



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RE: Basic info on War in the West 43-45 - 6/29/2014 6:52:55 PM   
Ketza


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He looks like a Union officer from the Civil War. Probably a Major.

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RE: Basic info on War in the West 43-45 - 6/30/2014 8:27:53 PM   
gravyhair

 

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Nah - it's definitely Gruber. Who knew?

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RE: Basic Info on War in the West 43-45 - 7/1/2014 11:12:27 AM   
GARY L

 

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Any Update on War in the West Forum?

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RE: Basic Info on War in the West 43-45 - 7/1/2014 6:53:48 PM   
IronDuke

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GARY L

Any Update on War in the West Forum?


It has been stolen by an international criminal mastermind based out of Germany...

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RE: Basic Info on War in the West 43-45 - 7/3/2014 9:07:01 PM   
Ketza


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Maybe I am a bit behind but I just ran across this:

http://www.matrixgames.com/products/507/details/Gary.Grigsby's.War.in.the.West






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< Message edited by Ketza -- 7/3/2014 10:08:25 PM >

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RE: Basic Info on War in the West 43-45 - 7/4/2014 12:57:11 AM   
Commanderski


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Thank you!

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RE: Basic Info on War in the West 43-45 - 7/4/2014 5:59:47 PM   
SuluSea


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GARY L

Any Update on War in the West Forum?


I'm looking forward to all the updates as well.
Best of luck going forward fellas.


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RE: Basic Info on War in the West 43-45 - 7/4/2014 10:10:20 PM   
Joel Billings


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Here's a screenshot of a recent Allied AI invasion in June 44 near Dieppe in the Campaign 43 scenario. Notice the different size airfields on the map. We keep making steady progress and are striving for a Fall 2014 release. I can only assume the large number of Italian labor battalions are out fixing various railyards that have been bombed by the Allied air forces.

This is not the first time I have been linked with Hans Gruber.




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RE: Basic info on War in the West 43-45 - 7/8/2014 2:50:37 AM   
Hermann

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kamil

Will WitW take logistics seriously?


Agreed - Smaller scale provides an opportunity to initiate a load limit on each supply hex.
Not sure how you intend to use the Russians in the WITW games love to hear more detail there.
Hedgerows were an absolutely devastating defensive obstacle will that be reflected ?
lastly night movement Rail and Unit March and weather conditions affecting flight are big concerns.
A 2 phase combat segment would be nice given the standard meeting engagement then retreat combat pattern.

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RE: Basic Info on War in the West 43-45 - 7/8/2014 2:44:28 PM   
Numdydar

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Lancer

The recent thread on WitE game balance drifted into a discussion about some of the unrealistic aspects of the WitE logistics model. As WitE 2.0 will develop from WitW I thought an explanation of WitW's model would be useful information for those suggesting improvements. IMO - the logistics model together with the new air model are the biggest changes between WitE and WitW.

Firstly some comments on the WitE system to set a baseline. In WitE supply (i.e. supplies, fuel, and replacements) can be drawn from any hex containing a working rail connected to the wider rail network (i.e. a green rail hex) and in effect supply movement within the rail network is unconstrained. From a functioning rail hex (in most cases) supply then travels by truck first to a HQ and then from the HQ to a Unit in a two phase process.

The Big Differences in WitW
- Supply moves around the map during the log phase as 'Freight' and it is tracked. When Freight gets to a unit it is converted into one of the four types of supply - Supplies, Fuel, Ammo or Replacements - but only if they exist in the production pools. (I think of it as cashing a cheque)
- Freight is created, stored and transferred between a network of Depots. Units will try to get their Freight from the nearest Depot. Unlike WitE supply does not move through HQs and you cannot get supply from any working rail - only a Depot. Depots also have Trucks which move Freight to Units. The Truck situation is similar to WitE - the fewer trucks and further you have to travel the less freight you will receive.
- Depots automatically move freight to each other by rail or sea (not truck).
- The ability to move Freight between Depots is constrained by two factors. Firstly Depots can only exist in a hex with a Port or a Railyard. The capacity of the Depot to handle freight is dependent on the size of the co-located Port or Railyard. A big port like Antwerp can handle much more Freight than a small port like Granville. Secondly there is a limit on the ability of the network to move Freight between Depots by ship or rail.
- Rail Capacity is governed by two factors - firstly Railyard Points which are produced by Railyards. Railyard Points represent rolling stock. The less you have the more difficult it is to move. Secondly the usage of a rail in each hex is recorded. As you move more by rail the track changes colour and the cost to move increases - representing congestion.
- Sea Capacity is limited by Port Points and Shipping. A unit can now have enough SMPs to unload but will be unable to do so as the port has maxed out which then impacts on the freight capacity in the log phase.
- The movement of Freight and the movement of Units by rail/sea are in direct competition so you need to balance moving units strategically with the logistic need of your units.
- As a player you can create Depots in hexes on the rail network with towns (inc Ports). You can specify the Priority of resupply for Corps/Army/Army Gp via their HQ and also for each Depot.

So what?
- The practical upshot of all this is that supply is more constrained. You are unlikely to get all the freight that you need no matter how you position your troops.
- As rail movement consumes Railyard Points not all rail lines are equal especially when unloading a unit - resulting in an increased SMP Cost.
- Similarly as depot capacity depends on the size of ports and railyards some lines of communication have much more capacity. It is no longer only a question of repairing the closest rail to the front line.
- As replacements also consume freight based on their size - putting a unit on refit in a Depot hex can suck up all the freight and leave others with almost nothing.
- Railing a unit to the rear for refit is possible but it will reduce the freight moving forward.
- There is no HQ Build Up function - you now have to create a Depot and allow freight to accumulate before launching an offensive.

I hope this gives you a flavour of the system - I have simplified some parts but hope it all makes sense. Feel free to ask any follow up questions.





To anyone that has ever played War in the Pacific, this all sounds very familiar

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RE: Basic Info on War in the West 43-45 - 7/9/2014 12:11:39 AM   
SuluSea


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

Here's a screenshot of a recent Allied AI invasion in June 44 near Dieppe in the Campaign 43 scenario. Notice the different size airfields on the map. We keep making steady progress and are striving for a Fall 2014 release. I can only assume the large number of Italian labor battalions are out fixing various railyards that have been bombed by the Allied air forces.

This is not the first time I have been linked with Hans Gruber.





Thanks for taking time to share. I've been studying it here and there for fun and am eagerly anticipating the new game.

I'd like to add an opinion if you don't mind. I love the original map artwork of WITE [still use the original map and counters] but was hoping this map [the greens] would be a tad more lush looking.

As always best of luck.

< Message edited by SuluSea -- 7/9/2014 1:12:11 AM >


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RE: Basic Info on War in the West 43-45 - 7/11/2014 11:44:00 PM   
Richrd

 

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Would it be possible to see a screenshot of the playable map?

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RE: Basic Info on War in the West 43-45 - 7/12/2014 2:01:38 AM   
Joel Billings


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Not sure what you mean. The screenshot above is of the playable map. If you mean the entire map area, look at the small jump map and you can see the area within the blue rectangle is the area used by the campaigns. Even zoomed out and with a high resolution, the entire map area doesn't fit in one screen.

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RE: Basic Info on War in the West 43-45 - 7/12/2014 6:49:32 AM   
Richrd

 

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Thank you. The jump map is fine, I just wanted an idea of what area was included.

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RE: Basic Info on War in the West 43-45 - 7/13/2014 2:48:00 PM   
MechFO

 

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The new logistics system looks like a big step forward.

I have mixed feelings about the new airbase system. Makes sense for 4-engine bombers but IMO for all other types the WITE system is a better and truer representation (perhaps best of both worlds would be, 4-engine bombers restricted to airfields, all other types unrestricted but receive readiness and supply bonuses when located on an airfield hex).

One big problem with the current WITE system I don't see addressed is synchronisation. If a unit spends it's full time allotment fighting through a position, another unit shouldn't be able to exploit with it's full movement allowance into the gap. IMO the lack of such a mechanic is a big reason for the snowballing that one constantly sees in WITE.

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RE: Basic Info on War in the West 43-45 - 7/16/2014 9:57:33 PM   
polarenper


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Even small fighter units based in a field needed some logistics to keep them going. IMO the new system simulates this better than what WitE currently has.

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RE: Basic Info on War in the West 43-45 - 7/19/2014 1:18:34 PM   
MechFO

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: polarenper

Even small fighter units based in a field needed some logistics to keep them going. IMO the new system simulates this better than what WitE currently has.


Up to and including 2engine bombers needed nothing more than a grass strip. Everything else could be handled by ad hoc mobile infrastructure. Of course readiness in adverse weather suffered, but operations were still possible.

You can check out some of the early WITE threads where this was extensively discussed.

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RE: Basic Info on War in the West 43-45 - 7/20/2014 10:11:42 AM   
The Guru

 

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quote:

One big problem with the current WITE system I don't see addressed is synchronisation. If a unit spends it's full time allotment fighting through a position, another unit shouldn't be able to exploit with it's full movement allowance into the gap.


Definitely. It is sad to see a game that with such depth in the reproduction of OB and equipement data burdened by a clumsy game mechanism.
This leads to silly optimal moves, where the units most in the rear travel all the way to the front open the breach with their last remaining movement points, so that the units up front can slip through with their first movement points.
Maybe if hexes where combat has occcured costed Mps (proportionately to the duration of the battle) this problem could be somewhat corrected.

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RE: Basic Info on War in the West 43-45 - 7/20/2014 5:30:16 PM   
Numdydar

 

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TOAW has this feature.

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