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RE: Air attacks softing up ground assault

 
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RE: Air attacks softing up ground assault - 3/7/2012 10:36:10 AM   
Pelton

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marquo

"The pocketed units get destoryed and come back the next turn sucking up 90% of replacements"

Axis players who know the rules know how to avoid this from happenng when needed.

Marquo :-)`


I know the rules, there is no way of avoiding the first turn suck off of replasements, 2nd turn sure.

Germany only gets 20,000 a turn not 120,000 a turn as Russian "if" you know the rules.

2 to 3 returning divisions easly drain off 90% of German replasements.

Pelton


_____________________________

GHC
23 - 4 - 8

16 games ended in 41 (16-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DiSQ36zfWk

(in reply to Marquo)
Post #: 31
RE: Air attacks softing up ground assault - 3/7/2012 10:54:02 AM   
Pelton

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Pelton, a couple of things I have noticed about your blizzard defense:

1. You do not use terrain. You prefer these geometrically precise lines. I think that's causing you problems. Actually, that's not just with blizzard, it's what you do generally on the defense. (You are also overbuilding forts imo.)

2. You pull out too much mech. TVD is obviously taking advantage of that. He's throwing a mobile army against an essentially leg infantry force. German blizzard play has fallen into a stereotyped pattern where they just want to take a pass on the blizzard, send off all their mobile units for R&R until spring, and skip ahead to March Madness (now March Mildness.) There's ways to punish the German who does that, TVD has figured out one way, I have my own ideas, and they don't involve tank brigade cheese which in my estimation is going to hurt you in the long run when you need to make tank corps. And you'll be doing so with a bunch of guys with 0-30 records or whatever after flailing away with spam soak off attacks. Ouch.

3. I'm going to go out on a limb and say you are probably not making much use of reserve stance. Ironically, this is a problem a lot of Soviet players have as well.

All that said, if TVD is gaming things that severely then perhaps it needs to be looked at. But we need the data.

For the record: I don't think that a blizzard that consistently results in 50 dead Axis divisions is balanced. If this is really going on, it needs to be addressed. But in order to address it we need an actual AAR that details this very premature destruction of AGC.


As I stated this is 2nd time vs TDV so your wrong a allot of points.

1. Terrain means little in this game other then rivers and forts. I have used this tactics vs a dozon good players and it works every time during blizzard and the german army puts a hurt on russian armt during snow.
2. ALL mech and panzer units were put in lines from start or withen 4 turns. As I have fased this more then once. So this just does not apply to this game and tactics at all.
3. As I have played more then one game into 43 have used it allot, but if I put ALL as in every single mech unit on reserve plus some infantry I am lucky to get a single unit to do anything. This as with other parts of the game is still broken badly.
It is usable for the Russian player as he has 500+ units on map and even the very very small % that react is allot during 42+
Vs Kamil, Hoooper and TDV I would be lucky to have 1 unit to react out off 40+ in one turn.
It just not working and never has. I know 8421 has massive amounts of units in reserve and hes lucky to get 2 or 3 battles a turn to work.

As German player I 100% ignore reserve option when I do my attacks as the russian unit hardly ever react and when they do 9 times out of 10 it has no effect on the out come of battle.

For the record: I don't think that a blizzard that consistently results in 50 dead Axis divisions is balanced. If this is really going on, it needs to be addressed. But in order to address it we need an actual AAR that details this very premature destruction of AGC.

As it is blizzard is still historically over rated, but un fixable because of supply system.

Repeating results is as easy as playing Jamiam or someone esle. Insstead of play testing summer of 41 endlessly play a few games as russian during blizzard vs someone.

2by3 can set up the game at any turn with whatever forses you wish so play testing the blizzard a few times would not take very long to test out more then a few tactics.


_____________________________

GHC
23 - 4 - 8

16 games ended in 41 (16-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DiSQ36zfWk

(in reply to Flaviusx)
Post #: 32
RE: Air attacks softing up ground assault - 3/7/2012 2:56:08 PM   
Seminole


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quote:

Terrain means little in this game other then rivers and forts.


Terrain = automatic fortification level that sappers and artillery can't reduce. Why would you consider that less important than fortification levels that sappers and artillery can eliminate in combat? People fighting in the open instead of terrain are basically asking to fight at 1/2 to 1/3rd the combat value they could have in better terrain.

I've actually seen the same Pzr Div react multiple times in a round. During my First Winter against one of my current opponents I've seen as many as a dozen reserve commitments in a single turn.

I keep Russian tank bdes on reserve for attack because a rifle div just brings more combat power, so it makes more sense to use them on the front line. I know that unit size has a negative impact on reserve commitment, but my estimation (haven't sandboxed this) is that regimental Pzr or Mot reserve commitments would more often than not fail to swing the battle, and although they would be more likely to respond, would be less effective.

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 33
RE: Air attacks softing up ground assault - 3/7/2012 3:54:00 PM   
BigAnorak


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From: The Duchy of Cornwall, nr England
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quote:

but my estimation (haven't sandboxed this) is that regimental Pzr or Mot reserve commitments would more often than not fail to swing the battle, and although they would be more likely to respond, would be less effective.


I have sandboxed this, and although not a huge database to work from, I am showing that prior to 1943, that when PZ or motorised regiments commit defensively they lose 28% of the time - 72% result in hold results. when a division commits, it loses 16% of the time 84% are hold results.

If you tune up your leaders to maximum initiative, you can achieve some pretty amazing results - I will post some when I get back to my other PC; but you are right, you need a mix of divisions and regiments in reserve mode to be most effective.In April 1943 command capacity increases to 10, so a PZ Korps in reserve mode can have 2 divisions and 6 regiments sitting in reserve mode without penalties to their initiative roll - they can really mess up soviet attacks, but if you lose, you risk getting messed up.

(in reply to Seminole)
Post #: 34
RE: Air attacks softing up ground assault - 3/7/2012 5:36:04 PM   
Flaviusx


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Pelton, the reason you haven't seen many reactions from the Soviet side is twofold. Firstly, STAVKA was crippled until this patch. Now it is working. And that adds a whole other command layer to help you succeed in your initiative rolls with -- and an obvious candidate for the job, G. Zhukov.

Secondly (and partially as a result of the first reason) most Soviet players don't really know how to use reserves.

Once they figure it out and start using them against you, I think you'll be singing a very different tune. And the Germans can make great use of it as well, but they also need to optimize their command structure for it.

Right now in my game against Scott I'm getting crazy amounts of reserves showing up to battle. And this is just in September of 41 with a rather threadbare Red Army.

_____________________________

WitE Alpha Tester

(in reply to BigAnorak)
Post #: 35
RE: Air attacks softing up ground assault - 3/7/2012 6:56:55 PM   
BigAnorak


Posts: 4678
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From: The Duchy of Cornwall, nr England
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This was one of my better results using a command structure pimped to maximise reserve activation. 5 fresh regiments that had rested during the mud turns and had 0 fatigue activated for this combat.







Attachment (1)

(in reply to Flaviusx)
Post #: 36
RE: Air attacks softing up ground assault - 3/7/2012 7:44:58 PM   
Seminole


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Joined: 7/28/2011
Status: offline
Playing as the Russian I've had some trepidation caused by observed Pzr and Mot units lurking behind the line. I've found myself sometimes engaging in sidebar feints with my initial attacks hoping to draw the reserves and burn up their available MP, as well as trying to maneuver units next to them to prevent reserve activation before launching a critical attack.

I think there is still much to learn (and tweak!) with these features by all sides. Plenty of trial and error to come.

I hadn't really thought about the fact that multiple regiments of a single Pzr Div could respond, and broken down thusly they'll be more likely to contribute.

(in reply to BigAnorak)
Post #: 37
RE: Air attacks softing up ground assault - 3/7/2012 7:51:20 PM   
Flaviusx


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From: Southern California
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Bob's been perfecting this use of breakdowns for a very long time. (Since Beta!) I'm taking notes because I think this is how you're going to have to play the Germans in WITW. Lay down ambush after ambush to slow down the allied juggernaut. (I'm more interested in playing the Germans in WITW.)



< Message edited by Flaviusx -- 3/7/2012 7:52:05 PM >


_____________________________

WitE Alpha Tester

(in reply to Seminole)
Post #: 38
RE: Air attacks softing up ground assault - 3/7/2012 8:45:08 PM   
Farfarer

 

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Too many of my opponents have been reading this thread :(

I hit everything that looks like a Reserve Unit with U2VS swarms, particularly mobile regiments ( less AA ), day and night missions. If I don't see a soft factor change, the 'good' stuff goes in. This is where that colossal Red Air Force comes in very handy. As an Axis attacker, there are usually just too many potential reserve units for the LW to hit, so I tend to rely on excess combat power and bombig disruption of the target only. Unfortunately, the use of the entire JU88 and He 111 fleets as flying fuel bladders is no longer as feasible...

(in reply to Flaviusx)
Post #: 39
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