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Sherman preferred to "Tiger"?

 
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Sherman preferred to "Tiger"? - 2/27/2012 2:15:47 PM   
Joe D.


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Every week the Military Channel hosts "An Officer and a Movie," in which war movies are treated to commentary by former military types.

Last week was "Kelly's Heroes," but when asked by host Lou Diamond Phillips what tank he preferred -- "Odd Ball's" Shermans vs. the Tigers guarding the bank filled with Nazi gold bullion -- the military "expert" said the Sherman!

Yes, the Sherman was smaller than a Tiger and could maneuver through the medieval streets of Italy with relative ease, but "it's only a movie"!

And yes, Tiger's tend to break down, but I'd rather hand-crank the turret of an 88 than ride in a "Ronson".

Heck, even the Military Channel's "Top Ten" rated the Tiger superior to the Sherman for its firepower, protection -- but not production -- and "fear factor," but IMO, an up-gunned Mark IV could best a Sherman.

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RE: Sherman preferred to "Tiger"? - 2/27/2012 3:16:40 PM   
2ndACR


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Good grief, here comes the Tiger vs Sherman debate. It has been a long time since that one.

(in reply to Joe D.)
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RE: Sherman preferred to "Tiger"? - 2/27/2012 3:44:04 PM   
BAL


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Buy a copy of "Armored Thunderbolt" by Steven Zaloga. The most balanced history of the Sherman tank that I've ever read.

For kick-a$$ firepower and protection I'd take the Tiger.

If I want something that I know will get me to the battlefield - I'd take the Sherman.

I also saw the same episode as the OP. Never heard of the "expert" that they had on. Next episode they're showing "A Bridge Too Far" with Gen McCaffrey (sp?) as their guest expert. His opinion I'd give a bit more credence to.

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RE: Sherman preferred to "Tiger"? - 2/27/2012 4:37:32 PM   
Joe D.


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quote:

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

Good grief, here comes the Tiger vs Sherman debate ...


It was actually debated?

quote:

ORIGINAL: BAL

... I also saw the same episode as the OP. Never heard of the "expert" that they had on. Next episode they're showing "A Bridge Too Far" with Gen McCaffrey (sp?) as their guest expert. His opinion I'd give a bit more credence to.


Looking forward to next week's show as well, but I wonder if it will be in two parts as "A Bridge too Far" is often far too long for one installment on TV.

BTW, the "expert" also said the Sherman had a gyro that vertically stabilized its gun so it could fire on the move, but would good is that against the armor of a Tiger or Panther?

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The best fighter-bomber of World War II

(in reply to BAL)
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RE: Sherman preferred to "Tiger"? - 2/27/2012 4:52:54 PM   
2ndACR


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It was debated at length years ago before the great hacker attack. Same as the famous Bismark debate. And the F4 vs Zero.

Sherman vs Panther.......yep

Those were some seriously heated debates too. If my memory serves.

(in reply to Joe D.)
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RE: Sherman preferred to "Tiger"? - 2/27/2012 4:54:44 PM   
Max 86


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This episode is a classic case of a stuffed shirt type taking things WAYYYY too seriously. For him to actually feel the need to point out that Oddball would never have made it in Col. Abrams tank force and how he could never make it back to allied lines riding in a tiger because of allied air supremacy...yada yada yada...completely misses the entire point of the movie! Who cares about any of that stuff when watching Kelly's Heroes!

Its along the lines of a scientist discussing the challenges of coconut technology of the Professor on Gilligan's Island. "You can't really make a radio out of a coconut, you know." I can hear him saying now!




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No problem Chief!

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RE: Sherman preferred to "Tiger"? - 2/27/2012 6:17:26 PM   
SLAAKMAN


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quote:

host Lou Diamond Phillips

(Snicker snicker.) Now I like Lou but Im afraid he's only a newb. In spite of the massive complaints about each tank, they both fulfilled their roles as best they could for the period.



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Germany's unforgivable crime before the Second World War was her attempt to extricate her economy from the world's trading system and to create her own exchange mechanism which would deny world finance its opportunity to profit.
— Winston Churchill

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RE: Sherman preferred to "Tiger"? - 2/27/2012 8:08:55 PM   
Dixie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Max 86

Its along the lines of a scientist discussing the challenges of coconut technology of the Professor on Gilligan's Island. "You can't really make a radio out of a coconut, you know." I can hear him saying now!



Really? I hope that doesn't extend to televisions, else I've wasted my life!

(in reply to Max 86)
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RE: Sherman preferred to "Tiger"? - 2/27/2012 8:59:49 PM   
ezz

 

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I heard that the Nazis lost because of all their negative waves.
Is this not true?

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RE: Sherman preferred to "Tiger"? - 2/27/2012 9:09:27 PM   
Joe D.


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Max 86

This episode is a classic case of a stuffed shirt type taking things WAYYYY too seriously. For him to actually feel the need to point out that Oddball would never have made it in Col. Abrams tank force and how he could never make it back to allied lines riding in a tiger because of allied air supremacy...yada yada yada...completely misses the entire point of the movie! ...


Like how the Sherman's could have made it to Nancy and back to their own lines w/o refueling?

What gets me is that the film itself seemed to go to great lengths re the accuracey of the units involved and the vintage vehicles that it made the movie surreal.

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RE: Sherman preferred to "Tiger"? - 2/27/2012 10:49:46 PM   
freeboy

 

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kinda silly isnt it?
Tiger = heavy long range tank killer.. sherman, great under 800yds and in groups groups...
55 shermans vs 5 tigers in close qaurters.. its the rats and dogs example.... both usefull tools.. you dont use a screwdriver for a hammer etc etc
unless yor into that

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RE: Sherman preferred to "Tiger"? - 2/28/2012 12:06:06 AM   
doomtrader


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The Shermans won the war.

IIRC there was over 50k of Shermans built, and only around 1,5k of Tigers and 0,5k of King Tigers.
This is 25 to one.
Even if you add 9k of Pz IV it is still 4 to one.
And even if you add 5k of Panthers it is still over 3 to 1.

Of course you have to remember about all those T-34s on the Eastern front to make this counting more valid.


In my opinion:
Tiger is a way cooler tank than Sherman, but I would prefer to have all those Shermans instead the kitties.

(in reply to freeboy)
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RE: Sherman preferred to "Tiger"? - 2/28/2012 1:02:02 AM   
Perturabo


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Sherman and Tigers have completely different roles.

Shermans are for drastically increasing the effectiveness of your infantry units, Tigers are for spearheading your most important attacks and counter-attacks.
Having 50k Shermans means that while some of them encounter Tigers and get destroyed by them, the rest allows your infantry units to progress much faster, with much lesser losses than if they wouldn't have medium tanks with them.

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RE: Sherman preferred to "Tiger"? - 2/28/2012 5:55:42 AM   
apathetic lurker

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: doomtrader

The Shermans won the war.

IIRC there was over 50k of Shermans built, and only around 1,5k of Tigers and 0,5k of King Tigers.
This is 25 to one.
Even if you add 9k of Pz IV it is still 4 to one.
And even if you add 5k of Panthers it is still over 3 to 1.

Of course you have to remember about all those T-34s on the Eastern front to make this counting more valid.


In my opinion:
Tiger is a way cooler tank than Sherman, but I would prefer to have all those Shermans instead the kitties.


I bet you the crews would have preferred something not called the Ronson ....

I was going to be rude here with double entendres but I don't want to get a vacation from Erik.


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RE: Sherman preferred to "Tiger"? - 2/28/2012 6:49:22 AM   
doomtrader


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You might be right, but on the other hand, German tank crews were pretty rarely taken as prisoners, because theirs uniforms were pretty similar to those used by SS.

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RE: Sherman preferred to "Tiger"? - 2/28/2012 9:23:27 PM   
freeboy

 

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I find it interestingthe shermans won the war folks.. and yes the US did invade with the partnership of the English and yes we did beat the germans.. but when you look at the numbers the war was one in the factories in the US and in the east, where tens of millions died. I was suprised that 5 million red army prisoners where taken..... 2 million survived the war. Per BBC world at war.... at least I am not quotingthe non history channel! lol
So where where we? Shermans vs Tigers..

How about Dalmations vs Wolves? 

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RE: Sherman preferred to "Tiger"? - 2/28/2012 9:28:59 PM   
warspite1


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No doubting the contribution of the US and the USSR in defeating the Axis. But the war was won by the Commonwealth too; the contribution of the Commonwealth nations is too easily forgotten by some.

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty - Horatio Nelson 1805.




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RE: Sherman preferred to "Tiger"? - 2/28/2012 10:51:00 PM   
SLAAKMAN


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quote:

No doubting the contribution of the US and the USSR in defeating the Axis. But the war was won by the Commonwealth too; the contribution of the Commonwealth nations is too easily forgotten by some.

(Actually the Commonwealth, Russia, France, Poland, Germany, Italy Japan, et al & the US lost the war. The winner was Satan & the Illuminati;)


quote:

Conspiracy Too Monstrous To Conceive

June 8, 2003

by Henry Makow Ph.D.

G.W. Bush"The individual is handicapped by coming face-to-face with a conspiracy so monstrous he cannot believe it exists." J. Edgar Hoover

The world is in the malignant grip of a satanic cult.

People recoil at the suggestion but proof stares us in the face every day.

George W. Bush, President of the "Free World" is a member of "Skull and Bones" a chapter of the Illuminati order. His father, grandfather and uncle are also members.

In his autobiography, "A Charge to Keep" Bush writes, "My senior year I joined Skull and Bones, a secret society so secret I can't say anything more." In Aug. 2000 he said his "heritage is part of who I am."

Isn't this a conflict of interest?

Hello! Can a man hold any public office, let alone the most important, and belong to a "secret society"? If this society were benign, would it have to be secret?

What a secret society it is! The Illuminati is the hidden hand behind all modern cataclysms, including the French and Russian Revolutions, Communism, the Depression and Nazism. To affect the course of history only takes money. The people behind the Illuminati have plenty.

It's time we faced reality. Murphy's Law applies to humanity. "If it can go wrong, it will."

It has. The world is ruled by a satanic cult.


>THE ILLUMINATI AND THE SKULL & BONES


The Illuminati originates in the Jewish Kabala, Babylonian mystery cults, the Templars, Freemasons and assorted interests dedicated to Satan worship and absolute power. On May 1 1776, Adam Weishaupt, a professor at the University of Inglestadt in Germany, founded "The Order of the Illuminati." Many people believe Weishaupt was sponsored by Prince William of Hesse Casel and his banker Meyer Amschel Rothschild, the wealthiest man in the world.

The Illuminati's goal was to destroy Western Civilization and to erect a new world order ruled by them. Its method was to dissolve all social ties (employer, nation, religion, race, family) by exploiting social discontent and promising a golden age of "human brotherhood." This is now called "globalization."

Attracted by the promise of power and change, people served without realizing who or what they were supporting. Weishaupt urged his followers to "practise the art of counterfeit." New recruits were told the Illuminati expressed the original spirit of Christianity. Weishaupt marvelled that even churchmen could be gulled. "Oh! Men, of what cannot you be persuaded?" (Nesta Webster, World Revolution, 1921, p. 27)

The Illuminati had a hand in every so-called "progressive" movement of the past 200 years. Women, said Weishaupt, were to be enlisted with "hints of emancipation." They "can all be led toward change by vanity, curiosity, sensuality and inclination." (Webster, 29)

William Huntington, an American who had studied in Germany, founded the "Skull and Bones" (Chapter 322 of the Bavarian Illuminati) at Yale University in 1832. The members wore a death's head on their chests and were sworn to secrecy on pain of death. "The Order" became the preserve of the leading New England families, many wealthy from the Opium trade. These include the Whitneys, Tafts, Buckleys, Lowells, Sloans, Coffins, and Harrimans. The Bush family was dependent on these interests.

For over 150 years, "Bonesmen" have run the world from positions in banking, intelligence, media, law and government. Members included Presidential handler Averell Harriman, anti war leader William Sloan Coffin, Time-Life magnate Henry Luce, Truman war secretary Henry Stimson (responsible for dropping the atomic bomb), pseudo conservative William F. Buckley and many more.

(cont)
http://www.henrymakow.com/000166.html

_____________________________

Germany's unforgivable crime before the Second World War was her attempt to extricate her economy from the world's trading system and to create her own exchange mechanism which would deny world finance its opportunity to profit.
— Winston Churchill

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 18
RE: Sherman preferred to "Tiger"? - 3/1/2012 7:55:41 PM   
nate25


Posts: 1379
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From: Fishers Indiana
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SLAAKMAN

quote:

No doubting the contribution of the US and the USSR in defeating the Axis. But the war was won by the Commonwealth too; the contribution of the Commonwealth nations is too easily forgotten by some.

(Actually the Commonwealth, Russia, France, Poland, Germany, Italy Japan, et al & the US lost the war. The winner was Satan & the Illuminati;)


quote:

Conspiracy Too Monstrous To Conceive

June 8, 2003

by Henry Makow Ph.D.

G.W. Bush"The individual is handicapped by coming face-to-face with a conspiracy so monstrous he cannot believe it exists." J. Edgar Hoover

The world is in the malignant grip of a satanic cult.

People recoil at the suggestion but proof stares us in the face every day.

George W. Bush, President of the "Free World" is a member of "Skull and Bones" a chapter of the Illuminati order. His father, grandfather and uncle are also members.

In his autobiography, "A Charge to Keep" Bush writes, "My senior year I joined Skull and Bones, a secret society so secret I can't say anything more." In Aug. 2000 he said his "heritage is part of who I am."

Isn't this a conflict of interest?

Hello! Can a man hold any public office, let alone the most important, and belong to a "secret society"? If this society were benign, would it have to be secret?

What a secret society it is! The Illuminati is the hidden hand behind all modern cataclysms, including the French and Russian Revolutions, Communism, the Depression and Nazism. To affect the course of history only takes money. The people behind the Illuminati have plenty.

It's time we faced reality. Murphy's Law applies to humanity. "If it can go wrong, it will."

It has. The world is ruled by a satanic cult.


>THE ILLUMINATI AND THE SKULL & BONES


The Illuminati originates in the Jewish Kabala, Babylonian mystery cults, the Templars, Freemasons and assorted interests dedicated to Satan worship and absolute power. On May 1 1776, Adam Weishaupt, a professor at the University of Inglestadt in Germany, founded "The Order of the Illuminati." Many people believe Weishaupt was sponsored by Prince William of Hesse Casel and his banker Meyer Amschel Rothschild, the wealthiest man in the world.

The Illuminati's goal was to destroy Western Civilization and to erect a new world order ruled by them. Its method was to dissolve all social ties (employer, nation, religion, race, family) by exploiting social discontent and promising a golden age of "human brotherhood." This is now called "globalization."

Attracted by the promise of power and change, people served without realizing who or what they were supporting. Weishaupt urged his followers to "practise the art of counterfeit." New recruits were told the Illuminati expressed the original spirit of Christianity. Weishaupt marvelled that even churchmen could be gulled. "Oh! Men, of what cannot you be persuaded?" (Nesta Webster, World Revolution, 1921, p. 27)

The Illuminati had a hand in every so-called "progressive" movement of the past 200 years. Women, said Weishaupt, were to be enlisted with "hints of emancipation." They "can all be led toward change by vanity, curiosity, sensuality and inclination." (Webster, 29)

William Huntington, an American who had studied in Germany, founded the "Skull and Bones" (Chapter 322 of the Bavarian Illuminati) at Yale University in 1832. The members wore a death's head on their chests and were sworn to secrecy on pain of death. "The Order" became the preserve of the leading New England families, many wealthy from the Opium trade. These include the Whitneys, Tafts, Buckleys, Lowells, Sloans, Coffins, and Harrimans. The Bush family was dependent on these interests.

For over 150 years, "Bonesmen" have run the world from positions in banking, intelligence, media, law and government. Members included Presidential handler Averell Harriman, anti war leader William Sloan Coffin, Time-Life magnate Henry Luce, Truman war secretary Henry Stimson (responsible for dropping the atomic bomb), pseudo conservative William F. Buckley and many more.

(cont)
http://www.henrymakow.com/000166.html


Wow.

We're doomed.

Is there anyone that WASN'T named in that (for lack of a better term) article?

Nate

(in reply to SLAAKMAN)
Post #: 19
RE: Sherman preferred to "Tiger"? - 3/1/2012 9:51:10 PM   
demjansk

 

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I would take the Tiger with Otto Carius as the commander

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RE: Sherman preferred to "Tiger"? - 3/1/2012 11:27:35 PM   
SLAAKMAN


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quote:

Wow.

We're doomed.

Is there anyone that WASN'T named in that (for lack of a better term) article?

Nate

Squeal!!!





Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Germany's unforgivable crime before the Second World War was her attempt to extricate her economy from the world's trading system and to create her own exchange mechanism which would deny world finance its opportunity to profit.
— Winston Churchill

(in reply to Joe D.)
Post #: 21
RE: Sherman preferred to "Tiger"? - 3/2/2012 12:07:10 AM   
Joe D.


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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

No doubting the contribution of the US and the USSR in defeating the Axis. But the war was won by the Commonwealth too; the contribution of the Commonwealth nations is too easily forgotten by some.


At least they contributed a bigger gun to the Sherman, but why call it "Firefly"?

_____________________________

Stratford, Connecticut, U.S.A.

"The Angel of Okinawa"

Home of the Chance-Vought Corsair, F4U
The best fighter-bomber of World War II

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 22
RE: Sherman preferred to "Tiger"? - 3/2/2012 7:12:47 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe D.

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

No doubting the contribution of the US and the USSR in defeating the Axis. But the war was won by the Commonwealth too; the contribution of the Commonwealth nations is too easily forgotten by some.


At least they contributed a bigger gun to the Sherman, but why call it "Firefly"?
Warspite1

Not quite what I meant but true enough. Hey, look at my 17-pdr!

As far as why it was called a Firefly is concerned - I have no idea. Anybody?


_____________________________

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Post #: 23
RE: Sherman preferred to "Tiger"? - 3/2/2012 10:24:55 PM   
Josh

 

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From: Leeuwarden, Netherlands
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"...As far as why it was called a Firefly is concerned - I have no idea. Anybody?..."

Good question really, no clue  Anybody?? 


(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 24
RE: Sherman preferred to "Tiger"? - 3/2/2012 10:54:18 PM   
Orm


Posts: 6199
Joined: 5/3/2008
From: Sweden
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: Josh

"...As far as why it was called a Firefly is concerned - I have no idea. Anybody?..."

Good question really, no clue  Anybody?? 



Seems that the nickname Firefly was not commonly used during WWII.

Cut from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherman_Firefly
The nickname "Firefly" is not found in wartime official documents. It was sometimes used at unit level (Brigade/Regiment) war diaries from March 1944, with another nickname being 'Mayfly'. During the war, Shermans with 17 pounder guns were usually known as '1C', '1C Hybrid', or 'VC', depending on the basic mark of the vehicle. In British nomenclature, a "C" at the end of the Roman numeral indicated a tank equipped with the 17 pounder.

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Post #: 25
RE: Sherman preferred to "Tiger"? - 3/2/2012 10:57:51 PM   
parusski


Posts: 4726
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From: Wyoming, Even Liberals Welcome
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SLAAKMAN

quote:

Wow.

We're doomed.

Is there anyone that WASN'T named in that (for lack of a better term) article?

Nate

Squeal!!!






SLAAKER, your mom called and said you left home without taking certain MEDS.

_____________________________

"I hate newspapermen. They come into camp and pick up their camp rumors and print them as facts. I regard them as spies, which, in truth, they are. If I killed them all there would be news from Hell before breakfast."- W.T. Sherman

(in reply to SLAAKMAN)
Post #: 26
RE: Sherman preferred to "Tiger"? - 3/2/2012 11:06:56 PM   
michael1776


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Status: offline
I would like to know what the "Great Bismark Debate" centered around? Not to start beating what, for some, is a dead horse.

-MJ


(in reply to Joe D.)
Post #: 27
RE: Sherman preferred to "Tiger"? - 3/2/2012 11:14:59 PM   
parusski


Posts: 4726
Joined: 5/8/2000
From: Wyoming, Even Liberals Welcome
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: michael1776

I would like to know what the "Great Bismark Debate" centered around? Not to start beating what, for some, is a dead horse.

-MJ




So it has come to this...

_____________________________

"I hate newspapermen. They come into camp and pick up their camp rumors and print them as facts. I regard them as spies, which, in truth, they are. If I killed them all there would be news from Hell before breakfast."- W.T. Sherman

(in reply to michael1776)
Post #: 28
RE: Sherman preferred to "Tiger"? - 3/2/2012 11:17:49 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 18876
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: michael1776

I would like to know what the "Great Bismark Debate" centered around? Not to start beating what, for some, is a dead horse.

-MJ


Warspite1

It's a long running debate that visits these forums from time to time. Someone says Bismarck is the capital of South Dakota, then someone chimes in with "oh no it isn't, it's North Dakota" - and it all goes downhill from there.

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty - Horatio Nelson 1805.




(in reply to michael1776)
Post #: 29
RE: Sherman preferred to "Tiger"? - 3/2/2012 11:24:59 PM   
parusski


Posts: 4726
Joined: 5/8/2000
From: Wyoming, Even Liberals Welcome
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: michael1776

I would like to know what the "Great Bismark Debate" centered around? Not to start beating what, for some, is a dead horse.

-MJ


Warspite1

It's a long running debate that visits these forums from time to time. Someone says Bismarck is the capital of South Dakota, then someone chimes in with "oh no it isn't, it's North Dakota" - and it all goes downhill from there.


AAHHHAAHAHA. ROTFLMAO.

But of course everyone in America knows Bismarck is the capitol of Alaska. The Dakota's--how silly warspite1.

_____________________________

"I hate newspapermen. They come into camp and pick up their camp rumors and print them as facts. I regard them as spies, which, in truth, they are. If I killed them all there would be news from Hell before breakfast."- W.T. Sherman

(in reply to warspite1)
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