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SOVIET MEGA DIGGING! Construction value of RR Construction brigade.

 
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SOVIET MEGA DIGGING! Construction value of RR Construct... - 2/26/2012 9:32:45 PM   
Mike29

 

Posts: 329
Joined: 9/10/2011
Status: offline 		Hi all!

As I just found first time playing for Soviet side construction value of RR Construction brigade is 43 (sappers have 15 - 20 as I remember). It cost 1 AP, build cost - zero! They do not use armaments (of course, they armed with shovels).

So, what I have to do is only spend all my AP each turn to build this cheat unit and assign 50 - 100 to each HQ. 500 000 in HQ does not look fine, but I get huge "Labour army" able to build 2 level fort each turn everywhere. I have 9 000 000 in August 1941, and poor vermacht stopped at Luga and Dnepr. I am happy as Soviet but please advice how to play for Germany then?

BR
Mike
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RE: SOVIET MEGA DIGGING! Construction value of RR Const... - 2/26/2012 9:36:56 PM   
Flaviusx


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Status: offline 		You might have a small problem getting replacements into your fighting units with all that manpower tied up. And getting your command issues sorted out since you spent all your APs on these units.

Anyways, this is old news. I'm building sappers now, RR brigades are yesterday's news.



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RE: SOVIET MEGA DIGGING! Construction value of RR Const... - 2/26/2012 9:44:43 PM   
Wild


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Status: offline 		Yesterday's news Yeah,i guess that means it shouldn't be fixed. Unbelievable!!

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RE: SOVIET MEGA DIGGING! Construction value of RR Const... - 2/26/2012 9:50:51 PM   
Flaviusx


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Joined: 9/9/2009
Status: offline 		It doesn't need to be fixed. If the Soviet does this, he's only hurting himself, not the Axis.

One more thing: forts are capped at 1 level per turn. You can't build them any faster than that no matter what.




< Message edited by Flaviusx -- 2/26/2012 9:56:54 PM >

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RE: SOVIET MEGA DIGGING! Construction value of RR Const... - 2/26/2012 9:57:09 PM   
Marquo


Posts: 1095
Joined: 9/26/2000
Status: offline 		You pick yer poison. I wish someone would spend all of their APs on RR labor units, rather than...choosing good leaders, disbanding crap corps HQs, etc. I would be in Penza by winter.

Marquo

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RE: SOVIET MEGA DIGGING! Construction value of RR Const... - 2/26/2012 10:14:14 PM   
Aurelian

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

You might have a small problem getting replacements into your fighting units with all that manpower tied up. And getting your command issues sorted out since you spent all your APs on these units.

Anyways, this is old news. I'm building sappers now, RR brigades are yesterday's news.




Sappers instead of RR brigades in 41 then?

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RE: SOVIET MEGA DIGGING! Construction value of RR Const... - 2/26/2012 10:24:23 PM   
Flaviusx


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Status: offline 		Put a few RR brigades in Fronts and STAVKA (mostly for rail repair later, and only secondarily for digging) but otherwise I'm back to sappers, 2 regiments per army.

And to anticipate a further bad idea: no, do not build 50 sapper regiments each and every turn.








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RE: SOVIET MEGA DIGGING! Construction value of RR Const... - 2/26/2012 11:11:30 PM   
Aurelian

 

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Status: offline 		Ahhhh. Thanks!.

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RE: SOVIET MEGA DIGGING! Construction value of RR Const... - 2/26/2012 11:26:46 PM   
Treale


Posts: 1052
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From: Central Florida
Status: online 		Wild will do anything to pick a fight with the Dev's....

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RE: SOVIET MEGA DIGGING! Construction value of RR Const... - 2/27/2012 12:51:49 AM   
Aurelian

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Treale

Wild will do anything to pick a fight with the Dev's....


With anyone who doesn't see things his way really.

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RE: SOVIET MEGA DIGGING! Construction value of RR Const... - 2/27/2012 1:29:06 AM   
gradenko_2000

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wild
Yesterday's news Yeah,i guess that means it shouldn't be fixed. Unbelievable!!

Needs fixing? What? Fort construction is already quite slow, you need to spend APs on Forts AND on these guys to get the higher levels, and building a lot of RR brigades ties up men that could be issued rifles and tanks.

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RE: SOVIET MEGA DIGGING! Construction value of RR Const... - 2/27/2012 3:36:28 AM   
76mm


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If this tactic is so effective, it would have been adopted from Day 1, before the Fort nerf. And who thinks Level 2 forts are worth anything? Oh, wait, those crafty Sovs could also put an FZ in every hex, too and, and...

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RE: SOVIET MEGA DIGGING! Construction value of RR Const... - 2/27/2012 12:47:01 PM   
Farfarer

 

Posts: 661
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Status: offline 		I build a lot of RR Brigades ( 121 in a current PBEM game). When you finally advance west, it is gratifying to see the AI double this guys up on every rail line extend the net. Meanwhile the 2, then 3 NKPS are sent to main areas. Manpower issues? What manpower issues? Nearly 200,000 men are turn are reaching front line units.




Attachment (1)

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RE: SOVIET MEGA DIGGING! Construction value of RR Const... - 2/27/2012 3:03:01 PM   
Mehring

 

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Status: offline 		I make it a bit over 80 000 manpower net, added to your frontline.

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RE: SOVIET MEGA DIGGING! Construction value of RR Const... - 2/27/2012 4:41:38 PM   
Farfarer

 

Posts: 661
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Status: offline 		The is a line "193217 meen added to front line units". Is this misleading then? Is there some sort of double counting or a divisor needed ? Thanks.

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RE: SOVIET MEGA DIGGING! Construction value of RR Const... - 2/27/2012 5:42:07 PM   
JAMiAM

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Farfarer

The is a line "193217 meen added to front line units". Is this misleading then? Is there some sort of double counting or a divisor needed ? Thanks.

The line right above it shows the amount that is coming out of the transit pool, and damaged components that were converted to destroyed. This should be subtracted from the added to front line units to get a better idea of the positive net flow into units. Better yet, you should be looking at the number further down in the logistics report that shows how many manpower were added to the national pool that turn from the manpower centers.

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RE: SOVIET MEGA DIGGING! Construction value of RR Const... - 2/28/2012 1:38:03 AM   
Wild


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian


quote:

ORIGINAL: Treale

Wild will do anything to pick a fight with the Dev's....


With anyone who doesn't see things his way really.


Things weren't always that way (you can check my early posts) but after being attacked on a personal level, having all suggestions ignored and not even commented on by the devs. and realizing the extreme soviet bias from many in the community. I must say i do somewhat enjoy needling the soviophiles.

But what i am really interested in is a balanced and fun game for Both sides. Unfortunatly it seems like many people including yourselves are not.

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RE: SOVIET MEGA DIGGING! Construction value of RR Const... - 2/28/2012 2:09:35 AM   
gradenko_2000

 

Posts: 569
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Status: offline 		That's all so general, though. How is this specific strategy of establishing a lot of RR Construction brigades supposedly overpowered and Soviet-biased, in the face of reduced fort building speed, capped fort levels outside of fortified regions and having thousands of men "locked" in non-combat roles?

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RE: SOVIET MEGA DIGGING! Construction value of RR Const... - 2/28/2012 2:15:34 AM   
Flaviusx


Posts: 5747
Joined: 9/9/2009
Status: offline 		What this is, is an idiot check.

A lot of Axis players make a big deal about the Soviet freedom to build stuff. They forget that this freedom means the freedom to build the wrong stuff. You can lose games this way. Indeed a lot of games I've seen lost in 1942 are as a result of bad build choices.

The Axis is idiot proof and to that extent easier to play. You don't have to worry about these things.





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RE: SOVIET MEGA DIGGING! Construction value of RR Const... - 2/28/2012 2:31:38 AM   
heliodorus04


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From: Denver Colorado
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Put a few RR brigades in Fronts and STAVKA (mostly for rail repair later, and only secondarily for digging) but otherwise I'm back to sappers, 2 regiments per army.

And to anticipate a further bad idea: no, do not build 50 sapper regiments each and every turn.


So does the prophet Glanz give any reason to believe that the Soviet Union was capable in 1941 of training the most specialized type of combat-arms soldier at the scale and speed at which your preferred method requires? I'm just curious. We know how many T-34s they could produce. How many demolition-specialists and combat-bridge-builders could they legitimately train in a summer?

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RE: SOVIET MEGA DIGGING! Construction value of RR Const... - 2/28/2012 2:37:46 AM   
Flaviusx


Posts: 5747
Joined: 9/9/2009
Status: offline 		They had entire sapper armies by 1942, Helio. Although I'm still not recommending that anybody build 50 sapper regiments a turn, or 50 SUs per turn of anything, really. It should be fairly self evident that any kind of all in build of this sort has crippling opportunity costs. You have a lot of stuff to do with APs, and if you do just one thing with them, no matter how good that one thing may be, it won't pay off.





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RE: SOVIET MEGA DIGGING! Construction value of RR Const... - 2/28/2012 2:39:22 AM   
76mm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04
So does the prophet Glanz give any reason to believe that the Soviet Union was capable in 1941 of training the most specialized type of combat-arms soldier at the scale and speed at which your preferred method requires? I'm just curious. We know how many T-34s they could produce. How many demolition-specialists and combat-bridge-builders could they legitimately train in a summer?


You've got to be joking? A guy with a shovel is the "most specialized type of combat arms soldier"? You really think that these units are full of demolition specialists and combat bridge-builders? Do you think that these specialists are the ones building the fortifications? In any event, the Soviet Union had absolutely no shortage of educated engineers, as demonstrated by the massive expansion of their industry during the war.

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RE: SOVIET MEGA DIGGING! Construction value of RR Const... - 2/28/2012 2:53:33 AM   
heliodorus04


Posts: 1369
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quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm


quote:

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04
So does the prophet Glanz give any reason to believe that the Soviet Union was capable in 1941 of training the most specialized type of combat-arms soldier at the scale and speed at which your preferred method requires? I'm just curious. We know how many T-34s they could produce. How many demolition-specialists and combat-bridge-builders could they legitimately train in a summer?


You've got to be joking? A guy with a shovel is the "most specialized type of combat arms soldier"? You really think that these units are full of demolition specialists and combat bridge-builders? Do you think that these specialists are the ones building the fortifications? In any event, the Soviet Union had absolutely no shortage of educated engineers, as demonstrated by the massive expansion of their industry during the war.


Is a sapper just a dude with a shovel, or is he a fully-trained "combat engineer"? Because I thought they were the latter (and I presume pioneers are the same).

I'm not talking about the RR Construction, which I would assume are peasants with a bowl of gruel and a bronze pickaxe. I'm talking about combat engineers, which is what I assume a Sapper regiment/battalion represents. Not counting support personal, etc.

Yes, combat engineers are the most specialized type of combat-arm there is, and they are a completely separate entity than a civil engineer.



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For the longest time I thought I'd buy WitW to ensure my legitimate voice of criticism could be heard. But as WitE continues down the path of Soviet Army fantasy-land, I've given up all hope of enjoying either game again.

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RE: SOVIET MEGA DIGGING! Construction value of RR Const... - 2/28/2012 3:00:11 AM   
Aurelian

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: gradenko_2000

That's all so general, though. How is this specific strategy of establishing a lot of RR Construction brigades supposedly overpowered and Soviet-biased, in the face of reduced fort building speed, capped fort levels outside of fortified regions and having thousands of men "locked" in non-combat roles?


Guess he/she hasn't played the game yet. IIRC, it used to be recommended that RRBs would be the primary, if not the only, SU to build in the early months.

Cutting Soviet Army CPs is Soviet biased too :)



< Message edited by Aurelian -- 2/28/2012 3:03:02 AM >

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RE: SOVIET MEGA DIGGING! Construction value of RR Const... - 2/28/2012 3:02:07 AM   
Aurelian

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm


quote:

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04
So does the prophet Glanz give any reason to believe that the Soviet Union was capable in 1941 of training the most specialized type of combat-arms soldier at the scale and speed at which your preferred method requires? I'm just curious. We know how many T-34s they could produce. How many demolition-specialists and combat-bridge-builders could they legitimately train in a summer?


You've got to be joking? A guy with a shovel is the "most specialized type of combat arms soldier"? You really think that these units are full of demolition specialists and combat bridge-builders? Do you think that these specialists are the ones building the fortifications? In any event, the Soviet Union had absolutely no shortage of educated engineers, as demonstrated by the massive expansion of their industry during the war.



Hey, all those civilians digging anti tank ditches, women and children mostly, were very highy trained. Takes alot of training to use a simple shovel ya know

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RE: SOVIET MEGA DIGGING! Construction value of RR Const... - 2/28/2012 3:05:00 AM   
Flaviusx


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Joined: 9/9/2009
Status: offline 		Back in 1.04 and earlier versions, yes, the RR brigades were highly attractive due to the overpowered forts. But even then you never wanted to build 50 of them a turn each turn.

The entire fort game has changed since then. They just aren't as good anymore, and the investment and planning involved to lay them down has increased dramatically.


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RE: SOVIET MEGA DIGGING! Construction value of RR Const... - 2/28/2012 3:05:59 AM   
Aurelian

 

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Status: offline 		http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Construction_engineer_(military)

Fully manned, each sapper army was authorized some 45,000 to 50,000 men

Deal with it.

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RE: SOVIET MEGA DIGGING! Construction value of RR Const... - 2/28/2012 3:07:46 AM   
Aurelian

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Back in 1.04 and earlier versions, yes, the RR brigades were highly attractive due to the overpowered forts. But even then you never wanted to build 50 of them a turn each turn.

The entire fort game has changed since then. They just aren't as good anymore, and the investment and planning involved to lay them down has increased dramatically.



And, somehow, it's a pro Soviet bias......

In my early games, I was building 3/4 per army. (Not 50 in a turn though...) What a waste that would be now.

< Message edited by Aurelian -- 2/28/2012 3:11:32 AM >

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RE: SOVIET MEGA DIGGING! Construction value of RR Const... - 2/28/2012 3:09:59 AM   
gradenko_2000

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04
Is a sapper just a dude with a shovel, or is he a fully-trained "combat engineer"? Because I thought they were the latter (and I presume pioneers are the same).

I'm not talking about the RR Construction, which I would assume are peasants with a bowl of gruel and a bronze pickaxe. I'm talking about combat engineers, which is what I assume a Sapper regiment/battalion represents. Not counting support personal, etc.

Yes, combat engineers are the most specialized type of combat-arm there is, and they are a completely separate entity than a civil engineer.

What does it matter that the Soviet player can dump several thousand "combat engineers" in a turn, if doing so results in sub-optimal results anyway?

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RE: SOVIET MEGA DIGGING! Construction value of RR Const... - 2/28/2012 4:02:20 AM   
76mm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04
Is a sapper just a dude with a shovel, or is he a fully-trained "combat engineer"? Because I thought they were the latter (and I presume pioneers are the same)...Yes, combat engineers are the most specialized type of combat-arm there is, and they are a completely separate entity than a civil engineer.


Well, first I thought you were talking about RR engineers. But I don't think that your idea of a Sov sapper is correct; I don't claim to be an expert in this, but I don't think they got nearly the type of training that you suggest, especially in 1941. After all, many pilots hardly got any training... I think the sappers basically got a shovel, maybe had some civil engineer in command, and then it was OJT. But generally Russians are incredibly handy (especially at destroying stuff!) and I think they would take to any engineering tasks very easily.

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