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Lend Lease to Russia

 
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Lend Lease to Russia - 2/26/2012 2:43:27 AM   
Razz


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If Germany defeats the UK, should Lend Lease continue to Russia?

What is your opinion?
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RE: Lend Lease to Russia - 2/26/2012 3:51:32 AM   
gwgardner

 

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Yes!

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RE: Lend Lease to Russia - 2/26/2012 4:07:40 PM   
Rasputitsa


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The British were running the Arctic Convoys, with materials from the UK and US, so if UK surrenders the convoys would probably stop. The overland route ran through Iran, occupied jointly by Britain and the Soviets, so with a British surrender the probability is that the route would be closed.

Without Britain, the source of Lend-Lease would have to be the US alone, but without Britain and if you assume hostilities with Japan, making the Pacific route very risky, it's difficult to see how it could continue, unless and until the US is able to commit considerable Naval and Land forces in the Pacific and/or Near East theatres.

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RE: Lend Lease to Russia - 2/26/2012 4:52:15 PM   
gwgardner

 

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I bow to the much more learned Rasputitsa, and withdraw my exclamation point, and reduce the cap to a lowercase 'y', and reduce the font size. In short, my response was more gameplay oriented than historical, and it should stay historical.

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RE: Lend Lease to Russia - 2/26/2012 7:23:22 PM   
Razz


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There is no Lend lease from the UK to Russia in the game, only USA to Russia.


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RE: Lend Lease to Russia - 2/26/2012 7:42:49 PM   
Rasputitsa


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quote:

ORIGINAL: gwgardner
I bow to the much more learned Rasputitsa, and withdraw my exclamation point, and reduce the cap to a lowercase 'y', and reduce the font size. In short, my response was more gameplay oriented than historical, and it should stay historical.

Whooa ! there a big difference between history and gameplay and you wouldn't want to wreck the game. Haggle a little (scene in the 'Life of Brian')

Here's a good what-if scenario beginning to develop. Britain 'invaded' Iceland on 10th May 1940, basing up to 25,000 troops, until July 1941, when the US took over to release British troops for other duties, basing 40,000 troops (note this is before US entry into the war).

What would be the provisions of a British armistice/surrender agreement, with reference to the Royal Navy and possession of Iceland. British surrender before July 1941 could extend Axis influence into North Altantic, convincingly closing that approach to the USSR, unless the British transferred Iceland to the US before collapse, along with sending the fleet to Canada. The 'events' possibilities are interesting, triggered after a certain British hex losses.

Send Fleet to Canada - Yes/No ... Get extra PPs on understanding that you will send fleet/ or reduced PPs as US cuts losses in lost cause
Transfer Iceland to US - Yes/No ... If yes 'Get 25,000 troops back'/ Germany gets Iceland

After July 1941, Iceland is in US hands and could be a base to fight convoys through to Russia and it would be a fearsome battle (here's at thought - US not yet a belligerent, USN ships operating for the Commonwealth). If the US was able to use it's full Naval strength (Battle of Midway off the North Cape) there could be a possibility, of convoys continuing, but then there is Japan ..............

OK, mad ravings, but you get the idea.



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RE: Lend Lease to Russia - 2/26/2012 7:54:50 PM   
Rasputitsa


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Razz
There is no Lend lease from the UK to Russia in the game, only USA to Russia.


Historically Britain is the conduit though which US lend lease flows, either via Arctic convoys, or through British controlled Iran. Until the US can take over those elements and of course it eventually could have, how did you think the game should handle the issue.

Whilst Britain is still an Allied power the lend-lease transfer can still be historically transferred, but if Britain surrenders, how can the US go it alone.

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RE: Lend Lease to Russia - 2/26/2012 8:07:14 PM   
Rasputitsa


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Razz
If Germany defeats the UK, should Lend Lease continue to Russia?

What is your opinion?


Would there be a 'Vichy' Britain, or can the Commonwealth fight alone, hold Iran route open. Essentially all major equipment, tanks, planes, ships etc., have to come from Britain (Axis ?), or the US.


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RE: Lend Lease to Russia - 2/26/2012 9:22:22 PM   
Razz


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I think the Capitals are hard coded and we can not move them :(

Otherwise we could make Quebec and transfer it there.

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RE: Lend Lease to Russia - 3/1/2012 6:04:44 AM   
Akmatov

 

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This is really interesting.

Checking the great repository of all accurate and unbiased human knowledge, Wiki, I find that American deliveries to the Soviet Union can be divided into several phases, two of which predate Dec 1941:
- "pre Lend-lease" 22 June 1941 to 30 September 1941 (paid for in gold)
- first protocol period from 1 October 1941 to 30 June 1942 (signed 1 October 1941)

Also, I see that the Persian Corridor wasn't operational until mid-1942.

Now the Pacific route would have been wide open before Dec 1941. But I've seen no information about American ships being in the Arctic convoys prior to Dec 1941. I doubt there were any American merchant ships sailing in Royal Navy commanded convoys prior to US entry. Certainly the US Navy was conducting an undeclared war in the Atlantic in 1941. But I don't know and would be very curious to know.

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RE: Lend Lease to Russia - 3/1/2012 9:26:30 AM   
Rasputitsa


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Akmatov
This is really interesting.

Checking the great repository of all accurate and unbiased human knowledge, Wiki, I find that American deliveries to the Soviet Union can be divided into several phases, two of which predate Dec 1941:
- "pre Lend-lease" 22 June 1941 to 30 September 1941 (paid for in gold)
- first protocol period from 1 October 1941 to 30 June 1942 (signed 1 October 1941)

Also, I see that the Persian Corridor wasn't operational until mid-1942.

Now the Pacific route would have been wide open before Dec 1941. But I've seen no information about American ships being in the Arctic convoys prior to Dec 1941. I doubt there were any American merchant ships sailing in Royal Navy commanded convoys prior to US entry. Certainly the US Navy was conducting an undeclared war in the Atlantic in 1941. But I don't know and would be very curious to know.


The effect of a British surrender on aid to Russia is that initially there is no aid, as Britain is supplying a significant part of the aid and is delivering all of it.

The US does not have the means to deliver aid alone, without, at minimum, British co-operation, so it would depend on the details of any armistice, or peace, agreement between Britain and Germany and how much of the Commonwealth decides to go it alone.

Before any meaningful deliveries can resume, the US has to either, build up sufficient force in the Atlantic to resume the Arctic Convoys, or land forces in the the Near East to take over Iran and open a land route.

Instead of the the first US contribution to amphibious operations being in North Africa against Vichy France, it might have had to be in the Persian Gulf, possibly against Vichy Britain. Just think of the logistical and practical difficulties involved in such an operation without friendly bases nearby.

Again it would depend on the position of the Commonwealth, South Africa, or India, for base facilities enroute and the Commonwealth forces already in the Middle East, but potentially cut off from their source of supply.

Had Britain surrendered in !940, would Roosevelt have had to ease up on the policy toward Japan, risking war in the Pacific would have been made all of the above impossible and left the US to face the Axis alone. The response could be that the 'bomb' would have solved everything. However, the 'bomb' was the result of the heat of war, where anything goes, no price too high, but a US retreating into isolationism may no have gone to that extreme, for a cause already lost.

Much of the attention in WW2 is absorbed by events from 1944 onward, but the early war period is intensely interesting and had the potential for world-changing what-if scenarios.




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