Matrix Games Forums

New Screenshots for Pike & ShotDeal of the Week Command: Modern Air/Naval Operations WOTYCommand: Modern Air/Naval Operations WOTY is now available!Frontline : The Longest Day Announced and in Beta!Command gets Wargame of the Year EditionDeal of the Week: Pandora SeriesPandora: Eclipse of Nashira is now availableDistant Worlds Gets another updateHell is Approaching Deal of the Week Battle Academy
Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

Persistent AP's

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Conflict of Heroes Series >> Persistent AP's Page: [1] 2   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
Persistent AP's - 2/25/2012 3:02:28 PM   
KEYSTONE07950

 

Posts: 177
Joined: 12/17/2006
Status: offline
On boardgame geek there is talk that the AP's are now "persistent"; meaning if you have an active unit "A" and it is more advantageous for you to activate another unit "B", you can activate "B" perform actions with it and then go back to unit "A" and use it's remaing AP's.

I would hope that we can have the option to use AP's as in the boardgame or use "persistent" AP's.

Any comments?


< Message edited by KEYSTONE07950 -- 2/25/2012 3:11:59 PM >
Post #: 1
RE: Persistent AP's - 2/25/2012 3:04:32 PM   
KEYSTONE07950

 

Posts: 177
Joined: 12/17/2006
Status: offline
delete double post.

< Message edited by KEYSTONE07950 -- 2/25/2012 3:05:44 PM >

(in reply to KEYSTONE07950)
Post #: 2
RE: Persistent AP's - 2/25/2012 10:52:16 PM   
Chris Merchant


Posts: 1134
Joined: 4/18/2000
From: Adelaide, Australia
Status: offline
If you're referring to Shared Activations (ie multiple current active units but all sharing the same AP pool) then they should be part of the PC game as they are in the latest version of the boardgame rules and are non-optional.

edit ah you're referring to this thread:

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/8574358#8574358

Hmm what other deviations from the board game are we going to discover.

< Message edited by Chris Merchant -- 2/26/2012 12:41:27 AM >

(in reply to KEYSTONE07950)
Post #: 3
RE: Persistent AP's - 2/26/2012 2:22:08 AM   
KEYSTONE07950

 

Posts: 177
Joined: 12/17/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris Merchant

quote:

Hmm what other deviations from the board game are we going to discover.


I am also wondering what other changes were made. This is not a minor change. It changes the complexion of the game.

(in reply to Chris Merchant)
Post #: 4
RE: Persistent AP's - 2/26/2012 3:09:21 AM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 32920
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: online
Hi Keystone,

We actually made this change originally at the suggestion of the original designer. We've found that it works quite well and does not detract from the design, which making it a lot friendlier to new players. With that said, adding an option to have APs be non-persistent is something we'd like to support as well, but it would be an option to add post-release.

I have to say that personally I prefer this variant.

Regards,

- Erik

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
Director of Product Development


For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to KEYSTONE07950)
Post #: 5
RE: Persistent AP's - 2/26/2012 3:11:48 AM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 32920
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: online
Just to add, this is Conflict of Heroes - it is not a new or different game. As Uwe was part of the original design process, he did work along with us to implement a few changes or improvements, but I don't think there's anything else in the same ballpark as the persistent APs when it comes to rules variants.

Regards,

- Erik

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
Director of Product Development


For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 6
RE: Persistent AP's - 2/26/2012 3:11:56 AM   
ioticus

 

Posts: 169
Joined: 6/13/2004
Status: offline
Very disappointed to hear about the change. I have a feeling they did it because the AI couldn't play well otherwise.

(in reply to KEYSTONE07950)
Post #: 7
RE: Persistent AP's - 2/26/2012 3:19:19 AM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 32920
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: online
Hi Ioticus,

Have you tried playing with this option? This change was not driven by the AI.

Regards,

- Erik

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
Director of Product Development


For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to ioticus)
Post #: 8
RE: Persistent AP's - 2/26/2012 3:29:57 AM   
ioticus

 

Posts: 169
Joined: 6/13/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Hi Ioticus,

Have you tried playing with this option? This change was not driven by the AI.

Regards,

- Erik


Sorry, I posted before reading your above comments, which sound good. I have not tried the persistent variant, but if it has the blessing of the designer then I feel more optimistic about the change.

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 9
RE: Persistent AP's - 2/26/2012 1:19:41 PM   
KEYSTONE07950

 

Posts: 177
Joined: 12/17/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Hi Keystone,

We actually made this change originally at the suggestion of the original designer. We've found that it works quite well and does not detract from the design, which making it a lot friendlier to new players. With that said, adding an option to have APs be non-persistent is something we'd like to support as well, but it would be an option to add post-release.

I have to say that personally I prefer this variant.

Regards,

- Erik


If this design change has Uwe's blessings I am more inclined to try the PC game. I will play several AtB & SoS scenarios with this change and see how it plays.

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 10
RE: Persistent AP's - 2/27/2012 7:51:16 AM   
Gil R.


Posts: 10036
Joined: 4/1/2005
Status: online
At this point, I'll just echo what Erik wrote.

This was not the case of someone (i.e., Uwe) just selling a license and wiping his hands of the matter: Uwe has been in regular contact with WCS and Matrix, and has most certainly had a say in the computer version's development.

_____________________________

Michael Jordan plays ball. Charles Manson kills people. I torment eager potential customers by not sharing screenshots of "Brother Against Brother." Everyone has a talent.

(in reply to KEYSTONE07950)
Post #: 11
RE: Persistent AP's - 2/27/2012 8:10:28 AM   
wodin


Posts: 7995
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: England
Status: offline
Gil R..I bet your proud of this baby!

_____________________________

My Tactical wargame facebook page.

https://www.facebook.com/Tacticalwargame


(in reply to Gil R.)
Post #: 12
Persistent AP's - 2/27/2012 6:35:19 PM   
KEYSTONE07950

 

Posts: 177
Joined: 12/17/2006
Status: offline
The game's designer, (Uwe) developed AP usage for a particular design reason. Why is that reason no longer valid for the PC game? The boardgame rulebook contains copious design notes. I would like to see the design notes which rationalize the change in AP handling.

I tested several scenarios from AtB, SoS, and PoH with my understanding of the Persistent AP usage, and decisions as to which units to activate in which order is no longer present (as you can go from activated unit to activated unit as long as the 7 AP's have not been consumed) - a step backwards in design to my mind.

Please convince me I am wrong.

(in reply to wodin)
Post #: 13
RE: Persistent AP's - 2/27/2012 6:55:45 PM   
ioticus

 

Posts: 169
Joined: 6/13/2004
Status: offline
I'm worried about the same lack of decision making, Keystone. I hope they at least include an option to play without persistent APs in a patch.

(in reply to KEYSTONE07950)
Post #: 14
RE: Persistent AP's - 2/28/2012 12:49:35 AM   
Chris Merchant


Posts: 1134
Joined: 4/18/2000
From: Adelaide, Australia
Status: offline
the more I read the new posts in the BGG thread, the more I worry about this board game port.

The AP system is the essence of the game - I am really hoping that Matrix and WCS consider adding in the option to play by the original activation rules as soon as practicable, even if it means that it is only available as a multi-player option, thus avoiding AI complications.

I will give the PC game a go nevertheless, as I am very happy to support companies that put time and effort into producing quality strategy games.

< Message edited by Chris Merchant -- 2/28/2012 12:57:12 AM >

(in reply to ioticus)
Post #: 15
RE: Persistent AP's - 2/28/2012 1:56:24 AM   
wodin


Posts: 7995
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: England
Status: offline
Listen, if there is a slightest change in the design from the boardgames then you can bet your life the boardgames will be up in arms bemoaning the whole game and saying it's a failure.

I'd take it with a pinch of salt. I have no worries at all. It will either be great or it wont. I really couldn't care less if it has some changes that are different to the boardgame. I mean there is Vassal out there. Seriously no fan of the boardgames is going to put me off.

If the AI is good and i has a historical feel then I'm happy.

< Message edited by wodin -- 2/28/2012 1:58:20 AM >


_____________________________

My Tactical wargame facebook page.

https://www.facebook.com/Tacticalwargame


(in reply to Chris Merchant)
Post #: 16
RE: Persistent AP's - 2/28/2012 2:17:48 AM   
Chris Merchant


Posts: 1134
Joined: 4/18/2000
From: Adelaide, Australia
Status: offline

sure Wodin, I understand how to filter out noise from useful comments.

However when comments come from core developers of this boardgame system I take notice.

James Palmer is credited with rules development for the series, and expresses concern.

Jesse leBreton is credited with help in development for the series and expresses balanced concern.

cheers

(in reply to wodin)
Post #: 17
RE: Persistent AP's - 2/28/2012 4:58:26 AM   
Lebatron


Posts: 2142
Joined: 5/30/2005
From: Upper Michigan
Status: offline
Wodin does have a point. It is true that sometimes when people love something the slightest change causes them to scream sacrilege. Let me point out that what I dubbed the persistent AP system is a perfectly fine way to play the game. Most will like it just fine. It does change the gameplay from the boardgame, but for the most part it still is CoH at it's core. The costs to fire and move etc are all still the same.

But my opinion is that the original activation system had a charm to it that I miss in the PC version. Also it created very interesting tactics. So yes, everyone knows where I stand. But this is just one man's opinion, so leave it at that. Most will be happy with persistent AP I think. If the original activation ever gets patched in, then that would be a nice bonus. Then everyone will be pleased. Both crowds could play the game under whichever system they like best.

_____________________________

Jesse LeBreton, AKA Lebatron
Development team- GG's WAW A World Divided

(in reply to Chris Merchant)
Post #: 18
RE: Persistent AP's - 2/28/2012 8:36:51 AM   
wodin


Posts: 7995
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: England
Status: offline
James and Jesse may also not like their baby being altered. I'm sure the beta testers have balanced the scenarios. Thankfully I haven't played the board version so I'm non the wiser. For me it will all be down to the AI. No point having a certain way of playing and the AI stinks. Then it would only be fit for multiplayer, and there is VASSAL for that so it would make the game pretty pointless.

_____________________________

My Tactical wargame facebook page.

https://www.facebook.com/Tacticalwargame


(in reply to Lebatron)
Post #: 19
RE: Persistent AP's - 2/28/2012 9:03:04 AM   
PirateJock


Posts: 458
Joined: 9/14/2006
From: North West, UK
Status: offline
quote:

For me it will all be down to the AI.


+1

There may be changes in the game mechanics but as long as the game is enjoyable I'm OK with that. I need to play it to decide. And if I crave non-persistent APs, break out the boardgame or fire up Vassal.

Cheers

_____________________________

Combat Command Matrix Edition Company, The Forgotten Few

(in reply to wodin)
Post #: 20
RE: Persistent AP's - 2/28/2012 11:33:57 AM   
James Crowley

 

Posts: 377
Joined: 6/10/2003
From: Chichester UK
Status: offline
Perhaps someone who has played both the boardgame and the PC version could explain the difference in 'activation' and 'persistant activation' and why, exactly, they feel that the former is better than the latter.

I have not played either version but, from my reading of the rules as published on the Academy Games site, it seems to me that 'avtivation' is more of a 'game' device (gamey, not interpreted as inappropriate but geared more towards gameplay than realism).

The 'persistant activation' version, if I understand it correctly, seems more realistic in reflecting the fact that most of what is happening in a turn is, in reality, occuring more or less simultaneously.

_____________________________

Cheers

Jim

(in reply to PirateJock)
Post #: 21
Persistent AP's - 2/28/2012 1:12:09 PM   
KEYSTONE07950

 

Posts: 177
Joined: 12/17/2006
Status: offline
To support COH, I will purchase this version.  I would be much happier if the game was released with an option as to which AP variant to be used.

I'm wondering if Uwe's civil war series (not yet released but VERY COOL looking) was part of the PC licensing deal.  It appears to be a natural for a PC port.




(in reply to James Crowley)
Post #: 22
RE: Persistent AP's - 2/28/2012 6:31:12 PM   
Lebatron


Posts: 2142
Joined: 5/30/2005
From: Upper Michigan
Status: offline
Yes I to would love to see Academy Games Civil war games land on PC someday.

_____________________________

Jesse LeBreton, AKA Lebatron
Development team- GG's WAW A World Divided

(in reply to KEYSTONE07950)
Post #: 23
RE: Persistent AP's - 2/28/2012 6:37:28 PM   
Capitaine

 

Posts: 599
Joined: 1/15/2002
Status: offline
Just learned of this game through another site and after checking it out I can say it's the first PC wargame in quite awhile that I'm truly excited about. This is the kind of wargame I want to play and the production values appear excellent.

I did look up the boardgame version and managed to read the rules after finding out about this "persistent AP" issue. It does seem, as many have asserted, that the boardgame version of activation/AP is central to the gameplay. While I don't mind having an alternate method available, I too would really like the boardgame method to be incorporated as an option. Maybe an "advanced" option if simplicity was the concern.

Nevertheless, I'm ecstatic that a board wargame is being ported so faithfully and will be inclined to stay with this series through numerous iterations. Echoing others, I hope a good response will encourage Matrix and other PC wargame publishers to do more of these projects.


(in reply to KEYSTONE07950)
Post #: 24
RE: Persistent AP's - 2/28/2012 6:38:47 PM   
Lebatron


Posts: 2142
Joined: 5/30/2005
From: Upper Michigan
Status: offline
Here is a pic from Bloody Crossroads the first in the Civil War series. If it ever gets ported I sure hope the developer doesn't get it in his head that the maps need to be turned into 3D. IMO you can't beat a quality map like this, so why try and reinvent the wheel. Just use the maps as is because they are 5 star stuff.




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Jesse LeBreton, AKA Lebatron
Development team- GG's WAW A World Divided

(in reply to Lebatron)
Post #: 25
RE: Persistent AP's - 2/28/2012 10:12:10 PM   
tide1530

 

Posts: 103
Joined: 4/15/2011
Status: offline
The Civil War map is a beauty for sure.  Like I said over at BGG people should advocate to have the developers make Persistant AP's an optional rule...an easy enough fix in a patch. It was done with extreme assault in the JTCS game. 

(in reply to KEYSTONE07950)
Post #: 26
RE: Persistent AP's - 2/28/2012 10:23:09 PM   
ioticus

 

Posts: 169
Joined: 6/13/2004
Status: offline
Not sure how easy it would be to patch persistant APs out of the game, since I imagine the AI would have to be changed quite a bit.

(in reply to tide1530)
Post #: 27
RE: Persistent AP's - 2/28/2012 10:49:38 PM   
tide1530

 

Posts: 103
Joined: 4/15/2011
Status: offline
I didn't work on the code for the change in the JTCS game but the programer had it changed in a short period of time without any problems to the AI... Although that is a pretty archaic game. The developers will know what can be done of course and hopefully they share that with people.

(in reply to ioticus)
Post #: 28
RE: Persistent AP's - 2/29/2012 1:44:25 AM   
Gil R.


Posts: 10036
Joined: 4/1/2005
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin
Gil R..I bet your proud of this baby!


Yes, putting aside any comparison with the original boardgame, this is a pretty impressive piece of work in a number of ways.

_____________________________

Michael Jordan plays ball. Charles Manson kills people. I torment eager potential customers by not sharing screenshots of "Brother Against Brother." Everyone has a talent.

(in reply to wodin)
Post #: 29
RE: Persistent AP's - 2/29/2012 11:14:27 PM   
Prince of Eckmühl


Posts: 2449
Joined: 6/25/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
You know, a resonable person who is unfamiliar with these games could read through this thread and reach the conclusion that this game system descended from on high, several years back, chiseled in stone, and hasn't since evolved. Am I wrong, or haven't the rules been revised with newer editions? If that's the case, then another resonable person who is familiar with the boardgame could view the changes that emerge with the computer version as a simple step in that same progression.

_____________________________

Government is the opiate of the masses.

(in reply to Gil R.)
Post #: 30
Page:   [1] 2   next >   >>
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Conflict of Heroes Series >> Persistent AP's Page: [1] 2   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.164