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RE: Perfection, of a kind, spence (A) vs fcharton (J)

 
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RE: Perfection, of a kind, spence (A) vs fcharton (J) - 9/13/2013 10:41:04 AM   
obvert


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy


quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert


quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

Yes, maybe, but Japan gets so few 12cm AA guns that you can defend only one or maybe two bases on the whole map... pretty ineffective as a general defensive plan


It's not a general plan, it's a point target plan. Palembang now. Also some protecting my army marching from Burma. Tokyo, Yokohama, Osaka, Nagasaki, Hiroshima and Kobe later.



Don't know how's in stock, but in DBB you barely get 15 small AA battallions equipped with 4x 12 cm guns... once you place there in a couple of key bases, you won't have much else left for your LCUs or homeland cities...
I tend to have a balanced distribution (which hasn't worked out that well, mind you) at my main bases, with 1 12cm AA unit, 3 with 8cm and some 20mm to counter the DBs...plus some useless 25mm flak from naval base forces. Nothing more. Enough to take out a couple of bombers every once and then, but surely not enough to stop any serious bombing offensive.

Night bombing remains borked imho. In both games i'm playing (one as Japan and one as the Allies) we banned it and the game is much more interesting and balanced


I agree it's screwed for precision targets. My opinion is pretty well known on that. I still believe going at manpower it should be allowed, for me. Too big a component in the real war to lose it.

At night the AA is less, but if the Allies bomb my big stack with several radar equipped and upgraded big units with 12 cm guns, with 88mm guns and many many other smaller guns, it hurts them quite a lot, even in stock. (The betas have adopted some improvements in flak I believe). During the day it's murder, losing 15-20 planes a day.

There are some bigger units that upgrade TOE to the 12cm guns. Can't remember now which, but it was a revelation when I found them.

_____________________________


"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

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RE: Perfection, of a kind, spence (A) vs fcharton (J) - 9/13/2013 10:47:34 AM   
PaxMondo


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AA Defense regiments upgrade to 12cm guns ...

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Pax

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RE: Perfection, of a kind, spence (A) vs fcharton (J) - 9/13/2013 11:04:24 AM   
fcharton

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert
At night the AA is less, but if the Allies bomb my big stack with several radar equipped and upgraded big units with 12 cm guns, with 88mm guns and many many other smaller guns, it hurts them quite a lot, even in stock. (The betas have adopted some improvements in flak I believe). During the day it's murder, losing 15-20 planes a day.


I have a few bases with a lot of AA, and they sometimes shoot something down during night raids. But again, you would expect that flak prevent bombers from making their run (this is the way it was used throughout WWII), and therefore reduce precision even if no bombers are lost. I don't see this happening (even less than with CAP, in fact).

And of course, it gets worse, because as night flak is inefficient, bombers can fly low at night (my opponent usually comes between 2000 and 6000 feet, which would be very unwise in the day), and this increases precision once again.

Francois

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RE: Perfection, of a kind, spence (A) vs fcharton (J) - 9/13/2013 11:11:36 AM   
obvert


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quote:

ORIGINAL: fcharton


quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert
At night the AA is less, but if the Allies bomb my big stack with several radar equipped and upgraded big units with 12 cm guns, with 88mm guns and many many other smaller guns, it hurts them quite a lot, even in stock. (The betas have adopted some improvements in flak I believe). During the day it's murder, losing 15-20 planes a day.


I have a few bases with a lot of AA, and they sometimes shoot something down during night raids. But again, you would expect that flak prevent bombers from making their run (this is the way it was used throughout WWII), and therefore reduce precision even if no bombers are lost. I don't see this happening (even less than with CAP, in fact).

And of course, it gets worse, because as night flak is inefficient, bombers can fly low at night (my opponent usually comes between 2000 and 6000 feet, which would be very unwise in the day), and this increases precision once again.

Francois


The other day I came across this article about raids by B-29s against the Sumatra oilfields. I hadn't known about them before. They did have 12cm flak guns here and at Miri by this time, yet the B-29s coming in at 5-7k took no losses. Their raid was unsuccessful though, so this may be the kind of effect you're referring to.

http://www.combinedfleet.com/SumatraOil.htm

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RE: Perfection, of a kind, spence (A) vs fcharton (J) - 9/13/2013 7:42:31 PM   
fcharton

 

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There was a wine fair today. I had planned to buy 30 bottles, which is a little more than what I drink over a year, but came back with 43. I finally found the Cote Rotie I will drink in the ruins of Tokyo, three bottles that deserve a few years in the cellar. Other highlights were red Burgundies, Nuit St Georges, Pommard, Mercurey and Auxay Duresses, that will join the dozen others that I’m keeping for the 2020s, and some St Estephe for Christmas. The wine rack has 140 bottles now, enough for a small siege. There will be another wine fair here in October, probably with lighter, and cheaper, stuff.
January 2nd 1943

Wake, why Wake?


American battleships bombarded Wake island. We replied and got a few hits, but little damage was done. It is interesting to note that they only had BB and CA. Maybe a few mines could make some differences, next time.

Night Naval bombardment of Wake Island at 136,98 - Coastal Guns Fire Back!
32 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.
Allied Ships
BB New Mexico, Shell hits 1
BB Colorado
BB Maryland, Shell hits 1
CA Vincennes
CA Astoria

Japanese ground losses:
106 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 19 disabled
Engineers: 1 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 18 (4 destroyed, 14 disabled)
Vehicles lost 1 (1 destroyed, 0 disabled)

Airbase supply hits 2
Runway hits 3
Port hits 2
Port fuel hits 2


Ambush over Gasmata

After the raids on Gasmata, yesterday, I sent Oscars and Nicks from Rabaul on long range patrol, in the hope of catching a few bandits. The B-17 didn’t fly, unfortunately, but we did nine B25-C and six Mitchell II. In the afternoon, P40-K came sweeping and evened the odds out by shooting twelve Nicks down. I am resting tomorrow, and might be back in a few days.

Burma, and the Oscar as a tactical bomber

I am supplied again in Kalemyo, and will attack tomorrow. I now have a lot of Oscars in Burma, and there are few air battles to be fought. Now, at normal range, Oscars carry two 250 kg bombs, SAP for the IIa, GP for the IIb. Do you think there is a merit using them in airfield bombing duty? And if so, which model? (I realize the SAP has better anti armor strength, and the XP better anti soft strength, but I have no idea what works for airfield).

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RE: Perfection, of a kind, spence (A) vs fcharton (J) - 9/14/2013 7:04:06 AM   
fcharton

 

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January 3rd 1943

A dull turn. We swept Taberfane, and shot down seven of the nine F4F-4 based there. In New Guinea, my opponent bombed Gasmata, for little effect.

In Burma, we lost quite a few fighters over Cox Bazaar. I had 25 Oscars and Tojos layered from 10 to 31000 feet, but 15 Hurricanes shot half of them down, for nothing in return. I don’t understand what’s happening there, so I will probably rest a few days, think about it, and be back.

We didn't shoot down any 4E for the second turn in a row, 18 in six days, we're still on schedule.

In Kalemyo, we attacked again, and it really seems enemy defenses are crumbling. Odds reached 2:1 for the first time, 50 squads were destroyed (for 11 ours), and 70 disabled.

I need to wait for supplies to arrive, but it looks like this base is ready to fall. Two divisions are on their way from Imphal, just in case.

Ground combat at Kalemyo (59,42)
Japanese Deliberate attack
Attacking force 66719 troops, 613 guns, 84 vehicles, Assault Value = 1966
Defending force 17587 troops, 280 guns, 622 vehicles, Assault Value = 355
Japanese engineers reduce fortifications to 1
Japanese adjusted assault: 1092
Allied adjusted defense: 502

Japanese assault odds: 2 to 1 (fort level 1)
Japanese Assault reduces fortifications to 1

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), preparation(-), experience(-)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
1891 casualties reported
Squads: 10 destroyed, 67 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 23 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 15 disabled

Allied ground losses:
417 casualties reported
Squads: 26 destroyed, 20 disabled
Non Combat: 10 destroyed, 19 disabled
Engineers: 2 destroyed, 11 disabled
Guns lost 13 (2 destroyed, 11 disabled)
Vehicles lost 19 (10 destroyed, 9 disabled)


Something is cooking in the Arafura sea. Two task forces have been spotted west of Babar, one surface group and what seems to be a light air combat group (CVE? One CV?). Four task forces, including transports are hafway between Darwin and Taberfane, moving North East. I suspect this is an invasion force for Dobo, and that the groups near Babar are trying to catch raiders, and attract naval bombers.

I don’t want to disappoint: I moved Kates and Betties to Koepang, which will try to torpedo whatever is standing guard near Timor. One cruiser squadron, now north of Lautem, has been ordered to sail to Ambon, out of range and the supposed carriers, and be ready to attack the day after tomorrow.

… and KB is in the small bay near Nabire, undetected, and will move to the coastal hex closest to Dobo. If I guessed his move right, and if my flyboys decide to go out and earn their rice bowl this time, we might be in for interesting times.







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RE: Perfection, of a kind, spence (A) vs fcharton (J) - 9/14/2013 2:43:59 PM   
fcharton

 

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January 4th 1943

I had guessed right.

Today, an amphibious task force, with a light DD and DE screen, arrived in Dobo. A larger surface groups remained in Taberfane, and carriers (two of them, apparently) were behind to provide air cover. The transports sailed over a long distance today, and so the landings only took place at the end of the day.

KB, five CV strong, with a full complement of planes and sorties, was four hexes from Dobo, five from Taberfane, and seven from enemy carriers. All enemy forces were detected in the morning. The weather over Dobo was clear, and we had light rain over Taberfane, a perfect day for an ambush, eh?

Except there was none… KB launched ONE strike in the morning, 10 Vals and 30 Zeroes, not against the Dobo and the transports, but targeting a small task group in Taberfane, further away and better protected. It was unimpressive, as could be expected.

Morning Air attack on TF, near Taberfane at 82,117
Weather in hex: Light rain
Raid detected at 119 NM, estimated altitude 13,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 44 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M3a Zero x 10
A6M5 Zero x 21
D3A2 Val x 11

Allied aircraft
Kittyhawk IA x 6
P-38G Lightning x 6
F4F-3 Wildcat x 4
F4F-4 Wildcat x 20

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M3a Zero: 2 destroyed
A6M5 Zero: 3 destroyed
D3A2 Val: 3 destroyed, 2 damaged
D3A2 Val: 1 destroyed by flak

Allied aircraft losses
P-38G Lightning: 1 destroyed

Allied Ships
CA Minneapolis
AK Betelgeuse


Actual losses were an unsurprising 9 fighters and 10 bombers for five allied fighters.

And that was all for KB today. Dobo was attacked twice, though, by… unescorted Betties from Ambon (much further away). They had detected the ships during the morning search phases, found the CAP two, but insisted on flying twice so that as few planes and pilots as possible were left at the end of the day. As a result, my opponent landed inhindered in Dobo. Only 30 AV made it ashore today, but I’m certain he’ll have more tomorrow, and that the SNLF unit there won’t hold more than a couple of days.

The next turn was played in five minutes. I moved KB back two hexes, so that it is six hexes from Dobo, and has another chance to strike, or just sits there again, or gets attacked by enemy CV, I don’t think I really care.

This is the third time over the last two weeks, that KB is in position to strike but doesn’t. It happened twice in Taberfane, and now in Dobo, and it is difficult not to find this a bit ridiculous (I mean, you outguess the enemy twice, get your best naval weapon in the correct position, get the right weather, and… nothing happens… twice)



Still, I find a bit curious that only Vals flew, and that they didn’t target the transports and their escort in Dobo. Thinking about it, something similar happened on the first day of the Taberfane landing: the carriers struck at long range, and so with Kates equipped with bombs, but went for the DD and CL, and not the transports.

Now, I do read in the manual that:

“Units will not always initiate a strike against a base or ground unit if they deem them to be unworthy of attack. The specific naval Target TF picked if there is more than one valid Target TF is determined by the unit based on the importance of the ships in the TF spotted. Carriers are by far the most important Targets, followed by Battleships, Cruisers, Transports, and other ships in that order.”

And I can’t help noticing that whereas CA and CL and even BB were detected in Taberfane, the invasion bombardment in Dobo was very light (involving five destroyers and an APD). Could it be that the mere presence of cruisers in Taberfane distracted KB planes from Dobo? And that the landings in Dobo were deemed not important enough to attack (given the presence of carriers in the area?) But then KB didn’t fly against the CV (but they were seven hexes away, out of Val2 range. That could be the reason)

And Betties from Ambon did fly against Dobo, too. So that would mean LBA don't target the same as Carrier planes?

I will try to understand what happened, but I have to say all this is pretty much turning the game in a very futile exercise, where prowess seems more linked to outsmarting routines, than getting a proper picture of what is happening, and bringing force to bear.


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RE: Perfection, of a kind, spence (A) vs fcharton (J) - 9/16/2013 2:54:17 PM   
fcharton

 

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January 5th 1942

My opponent told me he had a big case of the sync bug today, showing a large carrier battle (which the replay says he’s won), and then the same dull replay as me, with almost nothing flying. “But we will have the real thing today, unless you’ve retreated”, he said. So I opened this turn with more than a little interest.

It was just as underwhelming as usual. Enemy carriers (the four of them), had advanced between Taberfane and New Guinea, six hexes from KB. Both were detected. It should have been messy, and with five Japanese vs 4 Allied CV, us flying A6M5, him F4F Wildcats, the outcome was unclear.

But nothing seems to fly over the small mountain range between Nabire and Dobo. KB didn’t launch (why am I not surprised), and the Allied carriers chose to launch… 15 Avengers and 30 Wildcats against a loading tanker in Babo. The tanker was sunk, the KB sent a small amount of CAP and seven Wildcats and two Avengers were shot down, for one Zero lost. So yeah, we’re both knee deep into this alternate reality, where carrier battles don’t happen, bombers go unescorted, task force leaders choose tankers over carriers, and small support forces over landing parties, and when three days is all you need to take an island. Let us see how long they need for Dobo, jungle and one naval guard. In reality, such battles took weeks, sometimes months, losses were low, but they used a lot of time, and planning. Want to bet all Japanese units will be gone by the tenth?


In other news, three Royal Navy Battleships came to bombard Cox Bazaar. They were greeted by Betties from Magwe, which unfortunately flew without escort (there was some escort in Magwe, and the range is short, but…). 42 Betties were lost, but we got two torpedoes into the Royal Sovereign, two into the Ramilies, and one into the Warspite. I have a surface group not far, and will try to intercept the BB tomorrow. I will also have more Betties, and escorts, and maybe try to sweep the battleships (see if it works).

I can’t shoot at 4E bombers anymore, all of them seem to fly by night. They are not doing much damage, but this is conserving them, and probably training their pilots too.


I am retiring KB, it didn’t intercept the transports, Dobo is lost, and there is no point risking my carriers now. The only good side of all this is that it might help my opponent grow confident about moving his carriers in shallow water, and near LBA. And this might come and bite him, some day. It won’t be because of something I have done, of course, just the machine playing with itself, and a die roll getting wrong.

For the rest, I shifted a few squadrons in Burma, tried to ambush the enemy in Lae (set Tojos and Nicks to high altitude CAP, see what happens), and let the rest of the game move as it wants. I don’t feel like investing more than ten or fifteen minutes in a turn, these days. It all feels very futile.


I am curious about whether there will be another sync bug today. Judging from this game, and other AAR, it seems to happen when lots of naval attack and escort missions happen over a small area. My guess would be that something goes wrong with the target determination routine, which somehow grounds most planes on both sides, but gets the allies flying in the allied replay (for what I’ve heard,sync bug replays have a strong tendency to feature an inexistent allied victory).






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RE: Perfection, of a kind, spence (A) vs fcharton (J) - 9/16/2013 2:55:01 PM   
fcharton

 

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January 6th 1943

And so KB retired, and US carriers remained near Dobo. Taberfane now has eight units, lots of engineers, bases forces, and air HQ maybe. Let us is see how long it takes for it to become a level seven field (and Dobo too).

We had a good time in the air today. Over Chittagong, we swept six Martletts out of the sky, for two Oscars. Over Lae, Nicks and Tojos intercepted Warhawsk and Airacobras, shooting ten down, for fifteen ours. But we failed to reach the B17 bombing the field. Overall, air losses were 25 on each side. This should be more than the Allies can afford.

In Burma, 4E bombers are conducting night attacks. There was no moon today, but this didn’t prevent them from hitting the Port in Akyab. We shot down two B24D, so that’s 20 4E in 8 days. The nine units blocking the road to Chittagong have retreated, leaving only one in the hex. I will shock attack tomorrow, if it is not fast enough, that will be a few more British squads destroyed.

In Kalemyo, our two divisions from Imphal arrived, and we are supplied. We have 3000 AV, against 300 allied, probably. I am attacking tomorrow, and the base might fall.

Victory points have fallen behind 2.8:1 yesterday. It took the Allies six weeks to go from 2.9:1 to 2.8:1. I am fine with this speed of advance.

That should be all for today. I am just pushing turns around, not very seriously. If my opponent tries to push in the DEI now, he might advance fast. But I think he’ll rather build Taberfane and Dobo, base 4E, bomb the next base, and invade, and build the airfields, and then bomb and…

I’m ok with this. It makes the game a little longer, but the turns are easier to play.


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Post #: 609
RE: Perfection, of a kind, spence (A) vs fcharton (J) - 9/18/2013 9:14:32 AM   
fcharton

 

Posts: 953
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January 7th 1943

Arafura


Landings are going on in Dobo, a second Australian brigade is reinforcing the first. I believe they will attack when it lands. My SNLF is wasting her supplies bombarding them, and there is little I can do about it. Taberfane became a level two airfield, I don’t know how many engineers the base has, but it must be a lot.

Oscars from Ambon swept Taberfane, and shot down seven wildcats and two australian Kittyhawks 1A. So far, we have shot down 90 F4F-4 out of 450 produced, and 100 Kittihawks out of 130. The first Corsairs should be arriving soon, which is another reason to worry.

US carriers are still in the Arafura sea. There is nothing I can do about it at the moment, but I’m sure this is a weakness that can be exploited at some point in the future.

Kalemyo

The base didn’t fall but we did achieve 2:1 odds, and managed to destroy a good number of squads. I believe (or am I trying to be optimistic?) this is more important than occupying terrain at this stage.

Ground combat at Kalemyo (59,42)
Japanese Deliberate attack
Attacking force 92530 troops, 837 guns, 222 vehicles, Assault Value = 2932
Defending force 17450 troops, 278 guns, 614 vehicles, Assault Value = 372
Japanese engineers reduce fortifications to 1
Japanese assault odds: 2 to 1 (fort level 1)

Japanese ground losses:
1883 casualties reported
Squads: 6 destroyed, 75 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 10 disabled
Engineers: 1 destroyed, 13 disabled

Allied ground losses:
866 casualties reported
Squads: 32 destroyed, 37 disabled
Non Combat: 3 destroyed, 20 disabled
Engineers: 4 destroyed, 9 disabled
Guns lost 25 (7 destroyed, 18 disabled)
Vehicles lost 40 (3 destroyed, 37 disabled)


Bombers, air losses and allied air production

Night bombing seems to be back. 3% moonlight is apparently not preventing them from doing some damage, they damaged the port in Akyab, and destroyed a Nick in Rabaul. 4E are flown by cats. One B17-D was lost to damage, that is 21 4E lost in ten days, and 10 since the beginning of the month.

Over New Guinea, ten Tojos and Nicks from Madang flew CAP over Lae. It is three hexes away, and my squadrons were on CAP, so those are “spilt fighters”. It went pretty well, and we shot seven Warhawks and a P39 for the same number of fighters.

Overal, we lost 27 planes today to 21 allies, yesterday we had 23 to 24, and overall we lost about 6050 planes, and the allies 4840. This is a less than what John 3rd shot down (and lost) at this point of his game againt CR, but a lot more than what I saw in most games (for instance, Obvert losses were 4500 vs 3500 at the beginning of 1943, LoBaron and Robbrennan were at 4200 vs 3000).


I tried to calculate the number of planes the Allies produce in 1942 (without the soviets), and was amazed to arrive at 6360 for the period between December 41 and December 42. You then get 13 000 in 1943, 23 000 in 1944, 35 000 in 1945 and 16 000 for the five first months of 1946. Fighters and fighter bombers represent roughly half of these numbers, so the Allies have built 3000 fighters in 42, and will build about 6000 in 1943.

Right now, they are producing about 600 planes per month. This figure will rise to 1000 in May, and 1500 at the end of the year, and then by about 500 every six months. (I can provide the excel file I used to reprocess the Tracker data, if anyone’s interested).

But you have to add to this number the initial pools, and the planes that arrive as reinforcements (with squadrons). The Allies begin the game with 700 frames in the pools, and receive 17 000 as reinforcements throughout the game (or 13000, depending whether you look at the production tab or the airgroup tab in tracker). The allies get 2500 reinforcement planes in 1942, 3000 in 1943, 4200 in 1944 and 7000 in 1945.

Finally, at the beginning of the game, the allies have 4800 planes in their squadrons.

And so, provided the above calculations are correct, the allies began the game with 4800 planes in their squadrons, and 700 in the pools, or 5500 frames. In 1942 they received 2500 planes, and built 6300, for a total of 8800, but lost 4800, which means their air force grew by about 4000 planes this year, didn’t quite doubled, but close.

I am now producing 1300 planes a month, or about 15 000 per year, which is a little less than what the Allies will get this year (13 000 produced, and 3 000 in reinforcements). If I want to keep up with the current rate (and accept the 1.5 to 2:1 loss rate that seems typical in 1943), I need to increase my production by at least 50%. This puts some perspective, I think, into the ongoing discussion about Allied replacement rates.

Also, we often read on the forum about how the game allows Japanese players to embark into irrealistic plane building programs, but I fail to see how one can expect to survive past 1943, against an aggressive Allied opponent, without such numbers. … Which, once again, begs the question that shall not be asked: given the many documented problems Japan had historically, and which the game doesn’t model (interservice rivalry, lack of ASW, lower plane production than you achieve in game, Midway, unability to take out China, and so on) how come the real war last until 1945? and why is it that so many games seem so early on schedules? are we, moderners, so bright?


< Message edited by fcharton -- 9/18/2013 10:27:04 AM >

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Post #: 610
RE: Perfection, of a kind, spence (A) vs fcharton (J) - 9/18/2013 11:07:48 AM   
obvert


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quote:

Also, we often read on the forum about how the game allows Japanese players to embark into irrealistic plane building programs, but I fail to see how one can expect to survive past 1943, against an aggressive Allied opponent, without such numbers. … Which, once again, begs the question that shall not be asked: given the many documented problems Japan had historically, and which the game doesn’t model (interservice rivalry, lack of ASW, lower plane production than you achieve in game, Midway, unability to take out China, and so on) how come the real war last until 1945? and why is it that so many games seem so early on schedules? are we, moderners, so bright?


Pace. Weather. Accuracy and strength of bombing. Personnel and force rotation. Automatic replacements of pilots and airframes. More concentration of force.

All of these are different than during the war. They benefit both sides, but as the Allies get more and better equipment the pace of operations goes up and the concentration of force increases the ability to move forward. No need to wait for more planes to ship across the Pacific. Just have enough supply and they appear immediately. The ability to use 300-400 bombers in missions as early as 43 wasn't really done in the war, and that is likely because it was not possible with the logistics, the amount of trained air crews and the available bases and airframes to achieve these massed strikes (which in AE are possible daily rather than the much smaller missions 2-3 times a week in the war).

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Post #: 611
RE: Perfection, of a kind, spence (A) vs fcharton (J) - 9/18/2013 10:12:26 PM   
fcharton

 

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Hi Obvert,
I agree with your analysis. It seems to me that the game lacks a lot of the friction the real war was about, and this allows for incredible tempos, which most certainly explain why it is relatively easy to take China, or why a well thought Japanese invasion (eg Quixote right now) can achieve very impressive results over a short period of time. Of course, it also makes 1943 and 1944 much easier for the Allies, as they can follow a much faster tempo, and compensate their losses fairly easily.

I'm going on with this game, because I want to see where this leads (and I believe the weaknesses in the system will actually shorten the game), but I am not sure I want another one, or another campaign game after this one. I suspect I'll either go for short scenarios, the AI just for the fun of it, or, more likely, something completely different (more about this later).



I am playing fast these days, just setting a few planes to sweep, looking after a few ships, and pushing “turn done”. My opponent will be on holiday next week (Americans seem to have a lot of holidays, even though we’re supposed to be the lazy bunch… go figure!), and I will try to use the time to get the economy and troop movement back in line.
January 8th 1943

Dobo fell today, to the Allies first deliberate attack. The SNLF there had very high disruption due to daily raids by B24D (jungle doesn’t seem to help much). Interestingly, I had very light damage, which means I now have a pretty strong and supplied unit in the hex.

Ground combat at Dobo (83,116)
Allied Deliberate attack
Attacking force 3728 troops, 48 guns, 102 vehicles, Assault Value = 111
Defending force 1360 troops, 19 guns, 2 vehicles, Assault Value = 46
Allied adjusted assault: 52
Japanese adjusted defense: 25
Allied assault odds: 2 to 1 (fort level 0)
Allied forces CAPTURE Dobo !!!

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), leaders(+), disruption(-), preparation(-)
fatigue(-)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
52 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 5 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 4 (3 destroyed, 1 disabled)
Vehicles lost 2 (2 destroyed, 0 disabled)

Allied ground losses:
86 casualties reported
Squads: 1 destroyed, 11 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled

Assaulting units:
18th Australian Brigade
21st Australian Bde /5

Defending units:
Yokosuka 2nd SNLF


This is consistent with the results in Taberfane, against stronger Allies (say, between 1.5 and 2 times the AV) a base will hold two or three days. Whether this bears any similitude with history is anyone’s call. Let’s just say it seems a bit fast.


In Burma, I sent two squadrons of Tojos sweep Chittagong. They flew at 30 000 feet, but it didn’t quite work. Here is the first sweep

Morning Air attack on Chittagong , at 55,41
Weather in hex: Light rain
Raid detected at 17 NM, estimated altitude 31,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 4 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-44-IIb Tojo x 37

Allied aircraft
Hurricane IIc Trop x 23
P-40K Warhawk x 12

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-44-IIb Tojo: 4 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
Hurricane IIc Trop: 1 destroyed

Aircraft Attacking:
14 x Ki-44-IIb Tojo sweeping at 30000 feet *

CAP engaged:
No.17 Sqn RAF with Hurricane IIc Trop (0 airborne, 6 on standby, 5 scrambling)
6 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 2 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 28000 , scrambling fighters between 26000 and 28000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 17 minutes
No.615 Sqn RAF with Hurricane IIc Trop (0 airborne, 4 on standby, 4 scrambling)
2 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 30000 , scrambling fighters between 28000 and 30000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 25 minutes
23rd FG/74th FS with P-40K Warhawk (0 airborne, 4 on standby, 6 scrambling)
2 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 19000 , scrambling fighters between 25000 and 29000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 39 minutes


And the second

Morning Air attack on Chittagong , at 55,41
Weather in hex: Light rain
Raid detected at 45 NM, estimated altitude 35,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 12 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-44-IIa Tojo x 35

Allied aircraft
Hurricane IIc Trop x 15
P-40K Warhawk x 7

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-44-IIa Tojo: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
Hurricane IIc Trop: 1 destroyed

Aircraft Attacking:
31 x Ki-44-IIa Tojo sweeping at 30000 feet *

CAP engaged:
No.17 Sqn RAF with Hurricane IIc Trop (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
11 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 28000 , scrambling fighters between 30080 and 34000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 71 minutes
No.615 Sqn RAF with Hurricane IIc Trop (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
3 plane(s) not yet engaged, 1 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 30000 , scrambling fighters between 30000 and 33000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 23 minutes
23rd FG/74th FS with P-40K Warhawk (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
7 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 19000 , scrambling fighters between 30000 and 34000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 24 minutes



As you can see, things didn’t seem to go very well for the allies: detection times were 4 minutes, few planes were in the air, yet we lost 15 Tojos for 5 Hurricanes (and no Warhawk).

I thought I’d mention this, because I have read Obvert’s thread on CAP not flying, and it seems to me that my opponent had most of the problems invoked for his bad results (high altitude, late detection, planes not in the air, or distracted elsewhere, time to climb). So, the Allies should have had a very bad day, no? Or is it just because the Tojo is such a bad plane compared to the Hurricane and Warhawk?


(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 612
RE: Perfection, of a kind, spence (A) vs fcharton (J) - 9/21/2013 12:03:46 PM   
fcharton

 

Posts: 953
Joined: 10/4/2010
From: Nemours, France
Status: offline
January 9th 1943

Pairs of sweeps


A second day of sweep over Chittagong, replacing yesterday’s Tojos by Oscars, achieved pretty good results. Eight Hurricanes and as many Warhawks were shot down, we lost a dozen Oscars.

Such second day attacks seem to be quite efficient against Allied fighters. I used them against Port Blair, long ago, and then Imphal more recently. I will sweep Chittagong again tomorrow, as my Tojos are rested. I suspect he will ground his fighters, but we have shot down a good half of his squadrons over the last two days.

B17-E, escorted by P38-G appeared, over Hansa Bay. We had a squadron of A6M2, a daitai of Oscars, and a few KAI Dinah (that was one of their first engagements), but we managed to hold our part. Three P38 and a B17 were shot down, for seven zeroes.

Morning Air attack on Hansa Bay , at 97,121
Weather in hex: Moderate rain
Raid detected at 61 NM, estimated altitude 17,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 18 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 27
Ki-43-IIb Oscar x 12
Ki-46 KAI Dinah x 6

Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 36
P-38G Lightning x 24

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 3 destroyed
Ki-49-IIa Helen: 1 destroyed on ground

Allied aircraft losses
B-17E Fortress: 6 damaged
P-38G Lightning: 1 destroyed


I am reinforcing Hansa Bay with a squadron of Tojos and some Nicks. He will probably be back tomorrow.

We have shot down 22 4E since the 29th of December, and 11 this month.

Dobo

After capturing the base, my opponent attacked the SNLF in Dobo, but failed to do much damage.

Ground combat at Dobo (83,116)
Allied Deliberate attack
Attacking force 3669 troops, 48 guns, 102 vehicles, Assault Value = 102
Defending force 1333 troops, 16 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 41
Allied assault odds: 4 to 1

Japanese ground losses:
65 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 4 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled

Allied ground losses:
21 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled

The Mixed brigade that used to defend Taberfane should arrive tomorrow. I am trying to supply them by air, and see whether they can make a difference.

(in reply to fcharton)
Post #: 613
RE: Perfection, of a kind, spence (A) vs fcharton (J) - 9/21/2013 3:14:38 PM   
fcharton

 

Posts: 953
Joined: 10/4/2010
From: Nemours, France
Status: offline
January 10th 1943

Tojos swept Chittagong, to no avail: enemy fighters were grounded. We will be back.
Over Hansa Bay, the second day paid dividends: 13 P38-G and four Kittyhawks were shot down, for five Nicks, two Dinahs and three Zeroes. We didn’t shoot any B17 down, unfortunately.

35 P-38G are now reported lost, out of 65 produced so far, and 73 P-38G out of 92. The air war is looking good.

Over Dobo, another deliberate attack managed to achieve 1:1 ratio, but failed, once again, to do significant damage. I am trying to air transport more supplies, and keep those guys alive for as long as I can.

Ground combat at Dobo (83,116)
Allied Deliberate attack
Attacking force 3677 troops, 48 guns, 102 vehicles, Assault Value = 101
Defending force 4095 troops, 33 guns, 2 vehicles, Assault Value = 123
Allied adjusted assault: 34
Japanese adjusted defense: 23
Allied assault odds: 1 to 1
Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), disruption(-), preparation(-), fatigue(-)
experience(-), supply(-)
Attacker:
Japanese ground losses:
108 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 8 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 3 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Allied ground losses:
68 casualties reported
Squads: 1 destroyed, 21 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 3 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled



(in reply to fcharton)
Post #: 614
RE: Perfection, of a kind, spence (A) vs fcharton (J) - 10/3/2013 9:09:34 PM   
fcharton

 

Posts: 953
Joined: 10/4/2010
From: Nemours, France
Status: offline
My opponent was on holiday for a week, and then I had no time, so the game pretty much stopped for two weeks, here is a brief update.

January 11th and 12th, 1943

During the night, CA Mogami, CA Mikuma, CL Jintsu and three destroyers attacked Dobo. A dutch destroyer (Kortenaer), and APD (John D. Ford) and two patrol boats were sunk. Both our CA are damaged and on their way back to base, but none of them are in sinking condition.

Several task forces were detected west of Taberfane. I am sending a carrier division to try and sink them on their way to Australia.

I am having lots of difficulty supplying my units. I have 5.6 million tons of supplies, 1.2 in Japan, and more than 3.5 on the continent, but 3 million tons seem to be stuck in Port Arthur and Fusan, and won’t move, and in China, nothing will flow South of Nanking. I have tried various combinations of draw/stockpile options, but it looks like this cannot be helped. As a result, I am having a lot of difficulty keeping my front line units supplied, and everything is happening as if Japan had no supplies left. I have been holding all of China for months, but it looks like I can’t use the roads there.

I will try and organise convoys to Singapore and Rangoon if that's what the game asks for, but I have to say it is getting a bit boring. Once again, I have the impression I am fighting the game engine more than my opponent, and playing some kind of elaborate simulation about operation research more than something historical.


(in reply to fcharton)
Post #: 615
RE: Perfection, of a kind, spence (A) vs fcharton (J) - 10/4/2013 8:44:43 PM   
fcharton

 

Posts: 953
Joined: 10/4/2010
From: Nemours, France
Status: offline
Music for today is Brahms piano variations op 21, I need all the calm music I can find while trying to figure why my supplies won’t move
January 13th 1943

We had a pretty good day in the air. Over Burma, my opponent sent liberators (British and US) at night against Meiktila and Mandalay, but failed to achieve anything significant. My flak didn’t do much either, despite bombers flying very low (2000 feet). Night flak is really strange, in this game.

Over Madang, Kittyhawks swept for the second day, and fatigue took its toll. We shot down nine, for one zero and one nick.

On the ground, my first line troops in Burma are supplied. I should be able to clear the last jungle hex before Chittagong tomorrow, and am still hoping to finish Kalemyo.


For the rest, supply doesn’t get any better. Under a suggestion from Pax, I have checked my hexsides between Korea and Malaysia, and the supply routes, but couldn’t detect anything wrong.

Tracker suggests supplies stopped flowing overland about when the war in China ended, and I move troops south to Burma. I am wondering whether the conquest of China might be responsible for the current situation. Suppose the supply draw system won’t extend from Thailand, Singapore, and Burma to Manchukuo and Korea, and needs to draw from stocks in China, which will then draw from Korea. Then, so long there is a war in China, the supply demand from the IJA here is sufficient to keep everything flowing south, but once the war is won, and the fighting ceases, China needs less supplies, and Thailand and Malaysia wither on the vine.

Tomorrow, I am trying to draw and stockpile halfway, in Canton, Kunming and Bangkok, see what happens.

(in reply to fcharton)
Post #: 616
RE: Perfection, of a kind, spence (A) vs fcharton (J) - 10/5/2013 6:12:38 PM   
fcharton

 

Posts: 953
Joined: 10/4/2010
From: Nemours, France
Status: offline
I’m not in the game right now, every new turn seems to set a record as the fastest played so far. This is certainly not a good thing, but not being able to feed my troops makes it very difficult to keep interest, so I’m playing out of politeness.
January 14th 1943

I am having misgivings about India. On the paper, I have two dozen divisions, loads of artillery, good airfields and planes, and should be able to sustain a serious offensive. In practice, the only way to get supplies there is to ship them into Rangoon, but Singapore will not draw supplies. So I can either ship supplies from Fusan and Port Arthur, or use some from the DEI, which will be missed in New Guinea and Timor…

Worse, nothing ever seems to flow to Akyab and Cox Bazaar. Not even a trickle, nothing. Akyab has been at 0 supplies for a long time, Cox seems stuck at 20 (and both bases are developed, and we’re not in monsoon season). I could ship some supplies from Rangoon, of course, if supplies flowed to Rangoon, that is. For some reason, the road doesn’t seem to be working at all.

Chittagong sports 30 units now. As it is in open terrain, I intended to use my artillery, and make their life very miserable, but it looks like I won’t be able to bombard, as supplies don’t seem to move along the road.

Kalemyo is a little better. We attacked today, and destroyed a few squads. My opponent reinforced the base with Chindits, this is good as all those units are difficult to replace. Attrition is the word here. I am attacking again tomorrow, with low supplies, see whether I can get them out of the hex.

So, what should I do? Still try for a while, or reposition my troops south of the border and hope the same happens to my opponent (I very much doubt it), or just sit there and wait for the supplies to arrive, hopefully?



< Message edited by fcharton -- 10/5/2013 6:30:23 PM >

(in reply to fcharton)
Post #: 617
RE: Perfection, of a kind, spence (A) vs fcharton (J) - 10/5/2013 6:40:00 PM   
Crackaces


Posts: 2621
Joined: 7/9/2011
Status: offline
RE: Supply redistribution ...

18/07/2013: 1123n - Upgrading ships with cargo with attempt to offload cargo while in port (ie not part of TF)
Group upgrade not performed if ANY fragment present on or off-map
Correct retreat test in supply phase for isolated units
Protect use of 'unload at' destination when no destination is present
Correct display of port building %
Reverse base checking order for supply movement every 3rd turn

What version of WitP AE are you on?

_____________________________

Patients and providers of healthcare win with interprofessional practice http://ipep.arizona.edu/blog

(in reply to fcharton)
Post #: 618
RE: Perfection, of a kind, spence (A) vs fcharton (J) - 10/5/2013 10:58:16 PM   
fcharton

 

Posts: 953
Joined: 10/4/2010
From: Nemours, France
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Crackaces
What version of WitP AE are you on?


Last official (should be 1108r9 or something). I'll try to discuss an upgrade with my opponent (I'm a bit opposed to it, basically, I would prefer to keep the version unchanged throughout the game, but if it is the only way...)

Thanks a lot, crackaces
Francois

(in reply to Crackaces)
Post #: 619
RE: Perfection, of a kind, spence (A) vs fcharton (J) - 10/6/2013 4:24:06 AM   
PaxMondo


Posts: 5901
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: online
I agree with crackaces .. I would upgrade ... so many bugs have been fixed since the last official patch. hundreds actually ... unit upgrade errors, supply movement, ship unloading, unit fragments, LRCAP ... wow. just a lot of BUGS fixed.

_____________________________

Pax

(in reply to fcharton)
Post #: 620
RE: Perfection, of a kind, spence (A) vs fcharton (J) - 10/6/2013 9:06:33 AM   
fcharton

 

Posts: 953
Joined: 10/4/2010
From: Nemours, France
Status: offline
Hi Pax,

Lots of bugs, and lots of change in the game rules too... The little experience I had with version n, as the allies, was a bit disconcerting: units would surrender very easily (even after a bug in the previous version was corrected), US subs seemed very strong, even at the beginning of the game, I suppose there are others.

I will discuss an upgrade with my opponent, see how we like it, and then proceed. By the way, what is, in your opinion, the best moment in a turn to upgrade : before I replay the turn, and then my opponent must upgrade before he reads the replay, or after?

Francois

(in reply to PaxMondo)
Post #: 621
RE: Perfection, of a kind, spence (A) vs fcharton (J) - 10/6/2013 11:04:38 AM   
obvert


Posts: 7208
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: online
You both download and instal the new patch. You then run the turn as the Japanese player on the old version. Once the replay is finished you save and quit. Then load the new version and open the game, finish your moves, and save in the new version.

I believe the Allied player also watches the replay under the old version, then saves and opens the new version and makes their moves there. All done.

The best changes from official are the routing (coastal) and the coordination bug Jocke and I spent so much time with. Also the Allied ability to 'see' your planes in a base before making their moves is gone, which is huge if you ever want to surprise anyone.

A bunch of extras added make usability much more friendly as well. I certainly wouldn't want to go back now after using this one. I think after a short adjustment period you'll love it.

_____________________________


"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to fcharton)
Post #: 622
RE: Perfection, of a kind, spence (A) vs fcharton (J) - 10/6/2013 11:45:12 AM   
fcharton

 

Posts: 953
Joined: 10/4/2010
From: Nemours, France
Status: offline
I have suggested to my opponent that we upgrade our game. I am a bit suspicious about the value of this, as an upgrade will include both bug fixes and changes that might have adverse effects, and in such a long game, playtesting changes is almost impossible, and will follow his advice.
January 15th 1943

Supply woes


It seems that China is drawing a little more supplies than before. Over the last few days, the total amount of supplies stocked in China went from 250 to 290k tons. Meanwhile Korea went from 1150 to 1180k tons, and Manchukuo from 1700 to 1650k. Kunming doesn’t seem to draw supplies, but Canton does, and has 77k tons now, which mostly came from Nanking.

Looking at the way supplies move into China, I noticed a number of things.

First, there seems to be a real problem drawing supplies from Korea and Manchukuo into northern China. Fuel, oil and resources do move the other way around, which suggests the road is not blocked, but supplies doesn’t. I suspect Port Arthur and Fusan have now become too large to let their supplies go. I am planning to try and draw from Tientsin, see if I can create a stock in northern China, which can then be used to draw down to Nanking, and the Canton.

Second, there seem to be a strange area between Nanking and Hangchow. Basically, 100 000 tons of supplies (or about 40% of what is stocked in China) commutes between those two cities twice a week. I suspect a Robin Hood syndrome, here: both bases have about the same claim to supplies, but one is rich and the other one is poor, so our good AE engine robs the rich to feed the poor… until the poor gets rich, and our good old sir Robin robs the new rich, to feel the new poor… Ironically, this probably costs me supplies, and might even block some or all of the supply flow in China.

Third, coastal bases seem to have a large effect on the way supplies move. I need to test this more, but I suspect demand is affected by port and airfield size, which means an inland base with no port is always at a disadvantage. This, again, is a problem in China, where the correct route to draw supplies goes through Changsha (I will try to stockpile there)

I am still experimenting, and believe I will end up getting the supplies to move south. The next amusing experiment will be to try and get the fuel to move north from Singapore.

Who needs supplies?

In Kalemyo, we attacked another day. As expected, we were unsupplied, and our AV got badly reduced, but the enemy got the worst of it. Here are the results for yesterday

Ground combat at Kalemyo (59,42)
Japanese Deliberate attack
Attacking force 93779 troops, 837 guns, 222 vehicles, Assault Value = 3069
Defending force 18955 troops, 300 guns, 625 vehicles, Assault Value = 485
Japanese engineers reduce fortifications to 1
Japanese adjusted assault: 1660
Allied adjusted defense: 859
Japanese assault odds: 1 to 1 (fort level 1)

Japanese ground losses:
1850 casualties reported
Squads: 7 destroyed, 252 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 19 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 17 disabled
Guns lost 20 (1 destroyed, 19 disabled)

Allied ground losses:
1009 casualties reported
Squads: 6 destroyed, 104 disabled
Non Combat: 15 destroyed, 20 disabled
Engineers: 5 destroyed, 19 disabled
Guns lost 23 (1 destroyed, 22 disabled)
Vehicles lost 37 (14 destroyed, 23 disabled)


And today

Ground combat at Kalemyo (59,42)
Japanese Deliberate attack
Attacking force 92014 troops, 836 guns, 222 vehicles, Assault Value = 2889
Defending force 18447 troops, 303 guns, 623 vehicles, Assault Value = 402
Japanese engineers reduce fortifications to 0
Japanese adjusted assault: 445
Allied adjusted defense: 796
Japanese assault odds: 1 to 2 (fort level 0)

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), preparation(-), experience(-)
Attacker: supply(-)

Japanese ground losses:
1743 casualties reported
Squads: 4 destroyed, 132 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 13 disabled
Engineers: 2 destroyed, 22 disabled
Guns lost 12 (1 destroyed, 11 disabled)

Allied ground losses:
882 casualties reported
Squads: 74 destroyed, 42 disabled
Non Combat: 7 destroyed, 25 disabled
Engineers: 10 destroyed, 14 disabled
Guns lost 23 (10 destroyed, 13 disabled)
Vehicles lost 41 (5 destroyed, 36 disabled)


That’s over 150 squads and devices destroyed over two days, for 15 ours.


In Dobo, our air bridge seems to be achieving results. The SNLF unit that used to defend the base, is now at full strength, and the mixed brigade retreated from Taberfane is slowly recovering. My opponent apparently only has two Australian brigades there, which means few engineers. With a little luck, we can fight back in a few weeks.


The rest of the war is nice and slow going. We are getting more reported hits from the air ASW units based in the Indies. I am now getting quite a few pilots with ASW ratings around 70, and this seems to be making a difference. In Burma, I am marching on Chittagong. I want to see what those 30 units are like. Enemy fighters have disappeared, my opponent mostly bombs at night, and goes unescorted. Why risk planes when the engine let you do it.

In New Guinea, Lae gets bombed daily. I am not sure it makes a lot of sense, but it is not very damaging either, so… If he gets careless and sends the bombers unescorted, I will try an ambush.

Longer term thinking

I am trying to get an idea of where my war is going (provided the supply flow problem gets solved, or the answer becomes very clear). I believe the advance into India will not happen, even though I intend to try, the supply situation makes it almost impossible, and gives the Allies a long time to reorganize and reinforce. But this doesn’t mean Burma is a bad theater. I believe this can be turned into a very bloody operation for the Allies, as the losses around Kalemyo prove.

There is still no sign of activity in the central pacific. I suspect my opponent will not try this route: so far, many of his landings have been quite bloody. If I can bit him in Dobo, it will only confirm this idea.

The Solomons are being evacuated. Guadalcanal will soon be left with a token force, but again, I don’t think my opponent is investing much there. To me, the main path of advance is the typical two pronged move along both coasts of New Guinea, from Taberfane to Ambon, and from Milne Bay to Lae and Wewak. However, the northern move seems to be more difficult than the southern one. As a result, I believe I should work on building defenses in the Macassar-Kendari-Manado area, and then build up bases in the rear.

The more I think of it, the more Cruft’s Hive idea sounds interesting. I think I should build my defenses from Japan outwards, and let the final perimeter fall where his advance and my defense meet.



< Message edited by fcharton -- 10/6/2013 12:01:45 PM >

(in reply to fcharton)
Post #: 623
RE: Perfection, of a kind, spence (A) vs fcharton (J) - 10/6/2013 12:15:11 PM   
PaxMondo


Posts: 5901
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: online
Francois,

There is a new thread in the Tech Support forum that you should read discussing this now. I read it and then I realized (again) that I am really an atypical player. I keep forgetting that for most players this is a war game! For me, this is a logisitics exercise set in a war time scenario.

So, let me elaborate on my earlier suggestions. You are doing the right things. To get supply and other resources to flow, you have to have a "highway". An uninteruppted series of bases that have been built up to at least AF=7 (bull58 suggests AF=8) from Singers to Fusan. Port size abaolutely enters this calculation even more strongly than AF, but you need to be careful building large ports or resources will not flow well all the way to Fusan. Anyway, these large bases can in addition then act as feeders to smaller bases off of your main 'highway'. How far depends upon the terrain and the underlying infrastructure as detailed in the pwhex file. In China/Burma the answer is almost always "not far".

So from Singers I can get my resources flowing to Fusan via Saigon, but not Kunming. Not enough bases, too spread out, and the underlying terrain is terrible. So tracing the route from Singers to Fusan via Saigon, I need to have each base along the route built up to allow the flow to prevent the 'ping-pong' effect that you describe above from happening. If I want supply to flow up into Burma from Singers, the same thing is needed: a chain of bases via Bankok that the AF's are all built up. This is really true in those couple of place where there is no direct road ... you need large bases on either side of those bridge to span the gap.

I never think to mention this because I do this as a normal course of my expansion. I am alway building up each base to AF8/9 to support my flight op's as I move and to be sure I have a large pool of supply at the front. Anyway, so look along your transit paths now and see if you have any bases that are only 4 or 5. If you do, you want to build those up. I suspect that your resource/supply movements will rapidly improve.

_____________________________

Pax

(in reply to fcharton)
Post #: 624
RE: Perfection, of a kind, spence (A) vs fcharton (J) - 10/6/2013 12:29:16 PM   
fcharton

 

Posts: 953
Joined: 10/4/2010
From: Nemours, France
Status: offline
Hi Pax,

I have read the supply black hole thread. So far, I agree with what it said, but have little to contributed, except "me too".

As for the building up, I have been doing this since the beginning of the war. In China, Shanghai, Hankow and Chungking are level nine (Chengtu is on its way too). Canton, HongKong, Tientsin, Chengtu, Nanchang, Changteh and Lanchow are level 8, Nanking, CHangsha, Wuchang, Sian, Peiping, Tsingtao, Singyang, Kweiteh, Amoy, Nanyang, Chengting, Kaifeng, Chengchow and Loyang are level seven.

In fact, I think I have a highway at least to Wuchang, and Changsha, and another one to Nanking. Maybe the problem lies south, but then, I should have decent flow into northern China... But again, I am perplexed the resources and oil seem to flow. Or perhaps, the flow only works because resources come from northern China.

According to you, what would the best highway be? Coastal through Wenchow and Amoy? or central, through Chengchow, Hankow, Changsha, Kweilin and Nanning? I think the latter would be best (even though it strikes me as a bit weird for anyone who knows a bit about the geography of China)

As for the bridges over paths without a road, I have to say Akyab strikes me as a weird situation. It is a level 6 AF and 4 port, and does a very good job drawing fuel, but supplies never get there. This is one aspect of the game I really don't get: fuel and supplies should more or less follow the same paths.

In other news, my opponent agreed to upgrade, so the next turn will be in the last version (r isn't it?), anything I should know about it?

Francois



< Message edited by fcharton -- 10/6/2013 12:36:41 PM >

(in reply to PaxMondo)
Post #: 625
RE: Perfection, of a kind, spence (A) vs fcharton (J) - 10/6/2013 2:17:20 PM   
Quixote


Posts: 747
Joined: 8/14/2008
From: Maryland
Status: offline
Francois,
It's possible to move supply from Marchuria/Korea into China without massive infrastructure building, but it requires direct use of the supply draw system.

Turn 1. Set the supply draw at Peiping (I find this base works better than Tientsin) to max. You should draw to 75K supplies in one turn, pulled mostly from Port Arthur where they tend to pool.
Turn 2. Set the supply draw at Chengchow to max draw, and turn off the draw at Peiping. The 75K will move to Chengchow the next turn.
Turn 3. Set max draw at Hankow, Sian, etc., and turn off Chengchow. Supplies will move again.

Repeat as necessary, though when moving this number of supplies it doesn't have to be done too often. Note, I have never used this method to pull supply any further south than the Changsha area, so I don't know how well or poorly this method works from Changsha onwards, but you could always give it a try if you needed to.

(in reply to fcharton)
Post #: 626
RE: Perfection, of a kind, spence (A) vs fcharton (J) - 10/6/2013 2:42:09 PM   
PaxMondo


Posts: 5901
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: online
Supply 'pumping'. Yes, it also works. Needs constant management though ..

_____________________________

Pax

(in reply to Quixote)
Post #: 627
RE: Perfection, of a kind, spence (A) vs fcharton (J) - 10/6/2013 5:20:09 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 14898
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: fcharton

Hi Pax,

Lots of bugs, and lots of change in the game rules too... The little experience I had with version n, as the allies, was a bit disconcerting: units would surrender very easily (even after a bug in the previous version was corrected), US subs seemed very strong, even at the beginning of the game, I suppose there are others.

I will discuss an upgrade with my opponent, see how we like it, and then proceed. By the way, what is, in your opinion, the best moment in a turn to upgrade : before I replay the turn, and then my opponent must upgrade before he reads the replay, or after?

Francois

Use the latest patch. There was a patch where the surrender algorithm was broken, and that was fixed a patch or two later when it was recognized. I get lots and lots of messages about Chinese units being out of supply and surrounded and such, but they don't surrender except in the normal circumstances for surrender.

_____________________________

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(in reply to fcharton)
Post #: 628
RE: Perfection, of a kind, spence (A) vs fcharton (J) - 10/6/2013 7:15:51 PM   
obvert


Posts: 7208
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: online
For supply I've never worried much about things pooling in Manchuria and not going to China. Things have always worked when I added more supply and have always gone to where I ask for them by raising the allocation in one base or another. I've never used the 'yes/no' pool supply toggles. Simply the allocation settings. Also, units in the field tend to get them long before the bases, so this has always worked fine for me as long as I keep adding supply from the HI. Or even shipping it out from Fusan to someplace like Shanghai or Hong Kong.

_____________________________


"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 629
RE: Perfection, of a kind, spence (A) vs fcharton (J) - 10/12/2013 11:32:13 AM   
fcharton

 

Posts: 953
Joined: 10/4/2010
From: Nemours, France
Status: offline
January 16th 1943

We’re patched! Everything went fine, and it looks like supplies are beginning to flow south. The new beta probably helped, setting a couple of bases in central China to maximum draw played a part too. Anyway, Manchukuo supplies went down by 200 000 tons, and China went up by a corresponding amount. Most of those supplies are now in Nanking and Hengyang. I am trying to draw them south tomorrow, towards, Nanning, Canton, and Kunming.

This still needs to be confirmed, but if we can get those supplies to flow south, life will be much easier in Burma. The next step will be getting fuel in Singapore (3 million tons as of today) to flow north…

For the rest, B-17E attacked Hansa Bay, and we shot three of them down, that’s about 15 4E bombers during the first half of the month, so far so good. We had a bad day near Rabaul, on the other hand, as a squadron of Betties decided to attack PT boats near Kiriwina Island, and A6M2 rushed to escort them, into the waiting CAP. We didn’t lost any Betty, but 10 zeroes were shot down, for two F4F-4.

In Burma, my opponent reinforced Imphal, where I have two crack division behind level two field forts (which he can’t reduce, this is one strange aspect of the game…). They tried a shock attack today, and it didn’t work as they hoped.

Ground combat at Imphal (60,40)
Allied Shock attack
Attacking force 5073 troops, 72 guns, 510 vehicles, Assault Value = 1035
Defending force 21850 troops, 166 guns, 41 vehicles, Assault Value = 799
Allied adjusted assault: 227
Japanese adjusted defense: 2488
Allied assault odds: 1 to 10

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), preparation(-)
Attacker: shock(+)

Japanese ground losses:
710 casualties reported
Squads: 5 destroyed, 57 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 6 disabled
Guns lost 14 (1 destroyed, 13 disabled)

Allied ground losses:
780 casualties reported
Squads: 27 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 5 destroyed, 162 disabled
Engineers: 6 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 15 (10 destroyed, 5 disabled)
Vehicles lost 201 (15 destroyed, 186 disabled)


My troops have very little fatigue or disruption, they are low on supplies, but their morale is high. I am welcoming such an attrition battle in the jungle.

(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 630
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