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RE: Perfection, of a kind, spence (A) vs fcharton (J)

 
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RE: Perfection, of a kind, spence (A) vs fcharton (J) - 12/13/2012 11:47:24 AM   
obvert


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I agree that the CV strike looks like a CAP trap. Sucks, as usually you would still get a few though for a hit or two. That said, I've stopped fairly big escorted raids on IJN CVs with a CAP of 50 zeros and shot down ALL bombers as well, so I can't really complain. Jocke does though, probably for good reason.

quote:

Hi Erik

The Oscar flies higher than the Hurricanes, and the group patrol altitude was higher. For some reason the machine decided I couln't get to the max, but the Hurricanes could, on very short notice. Note also that we are not talking about big differential (a few hundred feet).

I agree about the stratospheric sweeps, but I don't think they are the problem here. I would have exactly the same problem at 25 or 20 000 feet. The point seems to be that weather, rate of climb and detection time are indifferent to the defender, and that fighting four time 40 oscars during the same morning won't saturate defenses, so long the fighters didn't coordinate.


Your Oscars look to be coming at 35k. Not max. If you set them to max and they didn't fly that high then that seems like an issue. Because of our HR though I've never tried to fly a plane at max, so I am not really qualified to deal with that one.

I would still say the height is key. The Oscar loses most of it's maneuver advantage at high altitude, and it's slower even than both Hurri models here, so with the speed advantage the Hurris actually in effect become more maneuverable, plus they have much better armament. (If I understand it correctly the speed advantage of it's opponent cuts into maneuver rating of the said plane thus putting it at a disadvantage. Against hurries at low altitude the difference in maneuver is so great they can overcome some of the cut due to speed, but not up high where their maneuver goes from 46 at 15k to 19 at 32k>and the hurry IIc goes from 23 to 15).

As your Oscars also dive to take out lower layers of the CAP, the others keep dive advantage.

Sweeps don't coordinate often, and if they do it's because the airfield is built up, there is an HQ or two, and they the leaders are all high in air skill. Rader was a master of getting this to work, but it's happened maybe 4-5 times for either of us in my game with Jocke in nearly two years.


Morning Air attack on Port Blair , at 46,58
Weather in hex: Heavy rain
Raid detected at 29 NM, estimated altitude 38,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 9 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-43-Ic Oscar x 41

Allied aircraft
Hurricane IIb Trop x 26
Hurricane IIc Trop x 9
P-40E Warhawk x 8

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-43-Ic Oscar: 7 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
Hurricane IIb Trop: 1 destroyed
P-40E Warhawk: 1 destroyed

Aircraft Attacking:
13 x Ki-43-Ic Oscar sweeping at 35000 feet * Your sweep looks to be set to 35k. Is that correct?

CAP engaged:
No.17 Sqn RAF with Hurricane IIc Trop (0 airborne, 4 on standby, 4 scrambling)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 1 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 35600 , scrambling fighters between 32000 and 35600. Group patrol is above you, so even if it's a few hundred feet they get the dive bonus which is huge with the armament and speed advantage already.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 15 minutes
No.135 Sqn RAF with Hurricane IIb Trop (0 airborne, 4 on standby, 4 scrambling)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 2 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 26000 , scrambling fighters between 26000 and 34000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 33 minutes
No.261 Sqn RAF with Hurricane IIb Trop (0 airborne, 7 on standby, 6 scrambling)
7 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 3 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 36000 , scrambling fighters between 34000 and 36000. The IIb has a 4x armament advantage over the Oscar Ic, so if the Oscar can't overcome that by taking a few out with the dive and having better maneuver at lower altitudes, it's toast.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 20 minutes
23rd FG/76th FS with P-40E Warhawk (0 airborne, 4 on standby, 3 scrambling)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 1 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 14000 , scrambling fighters to 29000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 12 minutes


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RE: Perfection, of a kind, spence (A) vs fcharton (J) - 12/13/2012 11:49:22 AM   
fcharton

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MAurelius
so if your Netties get mauled - maybe you'll have to fly them at a lower alt....


I certainly should, but then, the point of flying low is often to be able to attack unescorted, or with little escort. Here I have a fairly large escort (comparable in size with the CAP), with good planes, and experienced pilots. I believe it should provide some defense to the bombers, not just add losses to the whole. (And note that escorts pretty much have to fly at the same altitude as the bombers, I never could achieve high cover in the game)

Somehow, this gives the impression that altitude is the only deciding parameter, and that escort is only, can only be, ablative armor.

Again, I'm not really bothered by the fact the raid didn't succeed. Such things happen. But the idea that the escort could almost be wiped out (and still be sent to fly in the afternoon), without a clear technological or numerical advantage for the CAP seems, well, weird.

F.

(in reply to MAurelius)
Post #: 362
RE: Perfection, of a kind, spence (A) vs fcharton (J) - 12/13/2012 12:02:35 PM   
obvert


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MAurelius

at what altitude are your bombers flying? - and his fighters on CAP?

for example in my current GC I can almost always fly my B-25s without any harm under his CAP - if I keep them at 1000 feet - his fighters fly at 20,000 - so they don't have time to attack before I hit his shipping...

so if your Netties get mauled - maybe you'll have to fly them at a lower alt....



+1

There is difficulty spotting bombers flying low, especially 1k, so reaction from 11k will be slow and they will get through. anything below 7k seems pretty good, but above that they mostly will get smothered by the CAP.

It can all be frustrating, or it can key you into things that were valid tactics in the actual war and the complexity of the situation those actual commanders were facing. And they didn't know why capabilities of the opponents machines as we do now. You can imagine the frustration at using best knowledge up to that time and getting your planes (and more importantly, men) skewered because the enemy was using a new plane or a new tactic.

Although the game is endlessly frustrating, I've learned that if you're persistent you'll usually find a way around what your opponent is doing. It's only rarely the game is the actual issue, and at that point I just throw a few things and curse for a while, close the computer and go for a walk.

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RE: Perfection, of a kind, spence (A) vs fcharton (J) - 12/13/2012 7:42:02 PM   
SqzMyLemon


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Post removed.

< Message edited by SqzMyLemon -- 12/14/2012 3:17:31 AM >


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RE: Perfection, of a kind, spence (A) vs fcharton (J) - 12/13/2012 11:09:09 PM   
Saros

 

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Well there are two issues here, the first is that escorts are totally useless at fighting. I don't like it myself but you really just have to get used to it and basically treat escorts as disposable.

With the Oscar sweeps I think the high altitude is having some negative effects upon them. You get a significant fatigue penalty if you are flying your plane above 2/3 of its max height and the long range from Rangoon to Port blair probably means your pilots are arriving exhausted. Dont forget the fatigue totals you see the nest day are after a good nights sleep and dont really reflect the state of the pilots during the actual mission.

(in reply to SqzMyLemon)
Post #: 365
RE: Perfection, of a kind, spence (A) vs fcharton (J) - 12/14/2012 2:53:45 AM   
PaxMondo


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Francois,

You're frustrated and think these are bad rolls, but that's not what I'm seeing. A 9 hex sweep (360nm, 720 nm roundtrip) is REALLY long. that's roughly 4 hours. When the IJ did that over Guadacanal, losses were horrendous. You have to expect the same. Why?
1. low durability planes.
2. long distance.
3. high altitude. In one of the updates last year, higher altitudes acumulate more wear and tear.


quote:

ORIGINAL: fcharton

Morning Air attack on Port Blair , at 46,58
Weather in hex: Heavy rain
Raid detected at 29 NM, estimated altitude 38,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 9 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-43-Ic Oscar x 41

Allied aircraft
Hurricane IIb Trop x 26
Hurricane IIc Trop x 9
P-40E Warhawk x 8

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-43-Ic Oscar: 7 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
Hurricane IIb Trop: 1 destroyed
P-40E Warhawk: 1 destroyed

Aircraft Attacking:
13 x Ki-43-Ic Oscar sweeping at 35000 feet *



This first sweep, note that only 13 of 41 planes sweep. That means when they arrived overhead, 28/41 planes were not combat effective. The implincation on the other 13 is that they were barely air worthy, the least amount of battle damage and they are going to drop. And that is likely exactly what happened, one or two hits and they are down. The Hurri's being over their hangars are relatively fresh and Oscars have little armament anyway. Then there are eventually 41 allied a/c against only 13 of yours ... bad odds. Or better to say, you likely had 3 or 4 serial engagements of 1:1 odds, but the allied planes were fresh each time and your were getting worn down more and more each time.

While your pilots were low fatigue, what was the status of the planes. To do a 9 hex sweep, you need your planes in 'new' condition. less than 5% damage to start with. That takes special effort to achieve in your preparations.

quote:

ORIGINAL: fcharton
Morning Air attack on Port Blair , at 46,58
Weather in hex: Heavy rain
Raid detected at 15 NM, estimated altitude 38,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 5 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-43-Ic Oscar x 36

Allied aircraft
Hurricane IIb Trop x 20
Hurricane IIc Trop x 8
P-40E Warhawk x 1


Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-43-Ic Oscar: 9 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
Hurricane IIb Trop: 1 destroyed

Aircraft Attacking:
9 x Ki-43-Ic Oscar sweeping at 35000 feet *


This second sweep is like the first, only 9/36 planes were combat effective. The 9 that did sweep, again as in the first sweep, needed only minimal battle damage to sucumb. Again, they had to face 29 allied a/c ... 3:1 odds against you.

Long range sweeps (anything over 6 hexes) you need to be careful with as the IJ. Your plane durabilities are so low. You can do it, but you have to prepare both planes and pilots to be successful. And in bad weather, a 9 hex sweep might NOT be possible in an Oscar. Bad weather will accumulate more wear and tear faster than clear weather ...

The air combat model is incredibly complex, but generally gives results that you anticipate. These results here are what I would expect, sorry to say.


< Message edited by PaxMondo -- 12/14/2012 3:11:56 AM >


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RE: Perfection, of a kind, spence (A) vs fcharton (J) - 12/14/2012 3:05:38 AM   
PaxMondo


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Referring to your Nettie attack, it is a well known outcome that Netties do NOT do well against any defended naval targets.  I do not know why this is, but in a great number of AAR's and in my experience Netties against CV's with CAP will not hit a thing.  Losses tend to be high as well.

Now, Netties as coup-de-grace against CV's who cannot launch CAP work great as do Netties against any type of SAG TF or transport TF.

Sorry that you had to confirm this the hard way.

I do not know if this extends to Frances or not.  For me, my naval LBA that I move in reaction to allied amphibs is composed of Kate/Jill/Judy from re-constituted CV groups.  These will attack just fine.  I send these in on Day 1, and then will add the Nettie's from farther back on Day 2 or 3 depending upon Day 1 results.  On Day 1, I just have my Nettie groups on NavSearch to drive the DL on spotted groups to 10 and keep it there.

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Pax

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RE: Perfection, of a kind, spence (A) vs fcharton (J) - 12/14/2012 3:13:53 AM   
PaxMondo


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PS: The above two posts are my interpretations, but I'm not the expert.  If you want expert interpretation, drop a PM to LoBaron and ask him to drop in.  He reallly is expert on this.

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RE: Perfection, of a kind, spence (A) vs fcharton (J) - 12/14/2012 9:07:28 AM   
fcharton

 

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Hi Pax,

I understand your points, but I don't think we're on the same page.

First, it wasn't, by far, my first Oscar raid on Port Blair. If such results were expected, you would have seen me rant here several months ago. On the other hand, that this was probably the best planned raid I ever organised (rotated fresh squadrons, checked pilots, changed leaders, gave them lots of rest time, emptied the airfield of other planes, etc...). This is why I see a die roll.

Second, you note that very few Oscars actually swept, but seem to suppose that all Hurries were up in the air. Yet, the raids were detected very late, and no enemies were in the air at the time (bad weather cuts both ways). In the second raid, they had five minutes notice, no plane in the air, about 25 scrambling to 36000 feet. I had 9 fighters on sweep, 9 reported losses, but probably twice as many in reality (19 planes shot down on the combat report, 43 in the turn report, A2A only). So, what happened? The Oscar on sweep nicely waited for the Hurries to take position over them and shoot them, and the combat unworthy planed took their turn at acting as targets? And I am told the Hurries got the bounce, how?

Finally, what about the losses? If most planes couldn't fly to the target, why could they be shot down by enemy fighters that scrambled late. And what's that 10:1 supposed to mean? Midway is 1:2.5, all models told (that means, with the bombers), South Philippines is 1:5, and was considered incredibly unlikely at the time (hence its nickname), and included bombers as well. 10:1 in a dogfight, with equivalent models, really?


Don't get me wrong. I am not trying to say that this raid should have been successful. I don't really care, and I am pretty sure the same weird causes can produce the same weird effects on the other side. What I am saying is that in reality, factors tend to even out. The sweep is at long range, so you have less fighters on target... but less of them can then be shot at. High altitude causes lots of fatigue to your pilots... but makes interception difficult unless you are in the air when the sweep arrives. Bad weather make coordination difficult... and reduces CAP. At the end of the day, one side wins, but losses and damage tend to average, because nothing ever goes perfectly right, or perfectly wrong.

You should see the same averaging effect in models of reality, such as the game engine. You can even prove that the more complex the model, the more balanced the outcomes (that's the idea of "regression to average" in stats), and models that fail to achieve this are sometime said to be "ill conditioned", or "chaotic" (in the sense of "oversensitive to initial conditions").

I believe this is the problem with the air model, and I think this is what Joseph was criticizing as well. In this case, there are reasons why my sweep should be in trouble, and reasons too why the interception should have their own worries. But it looks like at some point in the turn resolution the model decides that "this side has won the engagement", and then proceeds to pile damage on the other, which results in the extreme loss ratios we've all seen. This is my criticism of the model. I am no historian or military specialist, and can't judge whether the model is correct when assuming altitude, or some other factor, is crucial to victory. But I am a bit worried by the tendency the model has to produce extreme results, instead of averaged ones. In real life, extreme events do happen, but rarely. This is not what I see in the game.

Of course, when such rare events happen, we all have the benefit of hindsight, and can point the "cause" of the problem, conveniently forgetting the "non causes". This is a feature of many AAR: you won here because you did that, you lost the battle, because you failed to toggle this button, and I suspect this kind of post-hoc explanation is the cause of many unpleasantness (not on this thread, mind you, and this is not directed at you or other posters on this AAR)


On a game level, and replying to Joseph (read you before you edited, Lemon-san), it sort of makes me think of the legalists, in ancient China, who considered that social stability was the result of a balance between rewards and punishments. If rewards were too generous, or punishment too harsh, states became very difficult to rule, they said.

And they had that cute story about the first person to revolt against the Qin. He was a petty official, tasked with leading conscripts to the border. On their way (near Suchow, in fact), they were delayed by storms, and it soon became obvious that they would be late. But the penalty for arriving late was death, and so, Chen Sheng thought he might as well die in a meaningful way, by revolting against the prince.

This summarises my problem with extreme results. The rewards for being successful is usually too large, and the penalties when things go wrong are too harsh. This might make for good narrative AAR, but it also ends up with a lot of people giving up, after yet another day when a huge victory, or defeat, was decided on one silly factor (and no, this is not how it goes in reality, this is how it goes in hindsight)

Just count the number of AAR, by serious and commited people, that end once one or both players decide that whereas their story might be fun to read, their games are not really interesting to play, because they because futile exercises in "experimenting with this new switch", which can spell massive victories, or terrible defeats.


Right, I'm done with this. I caught a cold yesterday on my way home from Paris, so I played the last turn without thinking deeply. I have retired most of my squadrons from Koepang, moved Oscars in to CAP the base, just in case, and ordered two small groups of Kates and remaining Betties to attack at 1000 feet. It is probably quite obvious to my opponent, so I expect him to close that door, but I can handle a few more losses, and this will be an interesting experiment anyway. The turn has arrived this morning, I will replay and play it tonight (working this morning, and playing the piano this afternoon).

Francois



(in reply to PaxMondo)
Post #: 369
RE: Perfection, of a kind, spence (A) vs fcharton (J) - 12/14/2012 12:14:30 PM   
Puhis

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo


quote:

ORIGINAL: fcharton
Morning Air attack on Port Blair , at 46,58
Weather in hex: Heavy rain
Raid detected at 15 NM, estimated altitude 38,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 5 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-43-Ic Oscar x 36

Allied aircraft
Hurricane IIb Trop x 20
Hurricane IIc Trop x 8
P-40E Warhawk x 1


Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-43-Ic Oscar: 9 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
Hurricane IIb Trop: 1 destroyed

Aircraft Attacking:
9 x Ki-43-Ic Oscar sweeping at 35000 feet *


This second sweep is like the first, only 9/36 planes were combat effective. The 9 that did sweep, again as in the first sweep, needed only minimal battle damage to sucumb. Again, they had to face 29 allied a/c ... 3:1 odds against you.





Pax, you are reading the combat report wrong. 9 x Ki-43-Ic Oscar sweeping at 35000 feet * means that after A2A combat, there was 9 Oscars left. So during A2A combat he lost 27 planes (shot down or retired).

Flying Oscars at 35k is simply wrong way to use that plane model. Result was poor because of long range and totally wrong altitude.

(in reply to PaxMondo)
Post #: 370
RE: Perfection, of a kind, spence (A) vs fcharton (J) - 12/14/2012 12:36:20 PM   
fcharton

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Puhis
Pax, you are reading the combat report wrong. 9 x Ki-43-Ic Oscar sweeping at 35000 feet * means that after A2A combat, there was 9 Oscars left. So during A2A combat he lost 27 planes (shot down or retired).


Hi Puhis,

I don't understand. What does sweeping after A2A combat mean? The point of sweeping is to draw enemy fighters in battle, so after A2A combat, the sweep is over, no?

I don't know what to think about high altitude sweeps. I have read both positions on the forum, from people who all seemed to know what they were talking about. I had the impression that the majority view is that altitude trumps pretty much everything (including maneuver), hence the high sweeps. To be fair, I think both positions (sweep at best maneuver band vs sweep at highest altitude) were supported by examples, which comforts me in the idea that the variance inside the engine is making everybody right, and wrong, and right again.

This said, the same logic should apply to CAP as well (the hurricanes are not high altitude fighters either), so the logical result would either be nothing, or a disproportionate number of ops losses, but not the A2A battle I just saw.

Francois

< Message edited by fcharton -- 12/14/2012 12:42:04 PM >

(in reply to Puhis)
Post #: 371
RE: Perfection, of a kind, spence (A) vs fcharton (J) - 12/14/2012 12:54:41 PM   
MAurelius


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before the latest patch that sweep would have turned out quite differently.... - but with the patch the fatigue was increased quite a bit for high alt flying AND the altitude bonus was decreased as well...

so if you fly them at their 2nd best MVR you might have got better results...

but then again I can show you results in my current GC where the Oscars die in droves in any case if attacking.... just don't stand up to F4F3/4 or even Hurrican IIbs... not even talking about IIc....

so don't worry too much about it ;)

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Post #: 372
RE: Perfection, of a kind, spence (A) vs fcharton (J) - 12/14/2012 1:39:15 PM   
Puhis

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: fcharton

quote:

ORIGINAL: Puhis
Pax, you are reading the combat report wrong. 9 x Ki-43-Ic Oscar sweeping at 35000 feet * means that after A2A combat, there was 9 Oscars left. So during A2A combat he lost 27 planes (shot down or retired).


Hi Puhis,

I don't understand. What does sweeping after A2A combat mean? The point of sweeping is to draw enemy fighters in battle, so after A2A combat, the sweep is over, no?


Game engine works that way: first there is A2A combat, then there is bombing phase. Fighter sweeps don't do any bombing, so game engine is only reporting how many planes survived A2A phase. In your case 9 out of 36.

quote:



I don't know what to think about high altitude sweeps. I have read both positions on the forum, from people who all seemed to know what they were talking about. I had the impression that the majority view is that altitude trumps pretty much everything (including maneuver), hence the high sweeps. To be fair, I think both positions (sweep at best maneuver band vs sweep at highest altitude) were supported by examples, which comforts me in the idea that the variance inside the engine is making everybody right, and wrong, and right again.

This said, the same logic should apply to CAP as well (the hurricanes are not high altitude fighters either), so the logical result would either be nothing, or a disproportionate number of ops losses, but not the A2A battle I just saw.

Francois


Well, you can listen to those giving BS advices. Or you can listen to me. I'm playing solely Japan and always PDU off, so Oscars are my main army fighters until late 1943. And believe me, I know how to use Oscars.

Oscar is slower than any allied fighter and have poor guns. Oscar's only advantages vs. early allied fighters are superb maneuver at lower altitude and better climb rate. And maybe better pilots. Use them.

If you sweep with Oscar Ic, fly below 15k feet. Forger second best band, with Oscar Ic use always the best. Or ignore my advice, keep flying strato-sweeps and loose half a sentai each day.

(in reply to fcharton)
Post #: 373
RE: Perfection, of a kind, spence (A) vs fcharton (J) - 12/14/2012 2:08:04 PM   
MAurelius


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might wanna have a serious attitude check. Mr....and don't blame it on your English - you knew what you were saying...

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(in reply to Puhis)
Post #: 374
RE: Perfection, of a kind, spence (A) vs fcharton (J) - 12/14/2012 5:08:00 PM   
SqzMyLemon


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quote:

ORIGINAL: fcharton

On a game level, and replying to Joseph (read you before you edited, Lemon-san)...


Guilty as charged.

I'm just seeing red with the game these days and think it's best I bow out of this discussion. I have nothing positive to add, nor kind words for the air combat engine and for my own mental health I'll just stay quiet. For every blanket statement that says we didn't do this or that, we know our games and what is occurring on a regular basis. I may not understand why and frankly no longer care, but what's beginning to matter is it doesn't "feel" right and that's good enough for me.

I'll be devoting more spare time to those imaginary models I claim to build (Erik ) and less on what has become an exercise in frustration more often than not.

< Message edited by SqzMyLemon -- 12/14/2012 8:04:25 PM >


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Post #: 375
RE: Perfection, of a kind, spence (A) vs fcharton (J) - 12/14/2012 10:25:06 PM   
PaxMondo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Puhis


Pax, you are reading the combat report wrong. 9 x Ki-43-Ic Oscar sweeping at 35000 feet * means that after A2A combat, there was 9 Oscars left. So during A2A combat he lost 27 planes (shot down or retired).

Flying Oscars at 35k is simply wrong way to use that plane model. Result was poor because of long range and totally wrong altitude.

Well, not surprised. Happens to me quite a bit.

At least I got the altitude and long range issues identified correctly. So 2 outta 3, not bad for me.

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RE: Perfection, of a kind, spence (A) vs fcharton (J) - 12/14/2012 10:32:16 PM   
fcharton

 

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July 8th 1942

Empty Timor


The British carriers have retired. The squadrons of Kates in Koepang and Dili found nothing. Bombers from Darwin paid a visit at night, but hit nothing. Off Flores, my carriers detected nothing, and were not spotted by anyone.

In the past, my opponent has retired for a day, and come back. I suspect he does that because his fighters have bad service ratings (2 or 3). My Kates will remain on naval attack, at a range of seven hexes and low altitude. Betties are on naval search, at maximum range, and mini KB is prowling, Vals on search, Kates and some Zeros at low altitude naval attack, and the rest of the zeroes as cover.

KB questions

With Shokaku and Zuikaku on their way to Nagasaki for refits, KB is four carriers strong. Zero complements are back at full strength, and I am very tempted to raid Luganville, where a bombardment task force around BB Mississippi seems to be forming. On the other hand, I don’t know where the US carriers are. I expect my opponent would use them when he makes his move against Lunga, and against massed US carriers and land based aircrafts in Luganville, KB is at risk.

But then, I doubt he will venture his carriers near Luganville. Lots of submarines were seen there, and so far, his carriers have been unlucky against them (I put a torpedo into Saratoga, Enterprise, and Yorktown). I would expect them to sail from Australia, and rendez-vous west of the Solomons, which means KB can probably move east of the New Hebrides, raid Luganville and retire.

This looks like a plan.

Waiting in Bangkok

In Bangkok, my Oscar squadrons are back to full strength. I need a few more day to have morale back over 90, and we can attack Port Blair again. I will try the suggestion Puhis made, and fly everybody at 15 000 feet. Ideally, I’d like the weather to be good, but there doesn’t seem to be such a thing as clear sky in this area, these days.

Meanwhile, a base force landed in Trinkat. I want to build the airfield there, to increase pressure on Port Blair, and to get a better search cover of the area between Ceylon and the coast.

China on the move

The units retreated from Kweilin were defeated once again today. We are marching on Liuchow, where the enemy sports a lot of troops, but most probably in very bad shape.

In Chungking, bombardments are now destroying more squads than they disable. Today, we destroyed 58 combat squads, and disabled 20. I have reinforced the city which now had 4300 AV, against 5500 chinese, and several headquarters, with lots of support, are arriving tomorrow.

We need another week to rest the disruption, but the odds are shifting in our favour.

(in reply to PaxMondo)
Post #: 377
RE: Perfection, of a kind, spence (A) vs fcharton (J) - 12/14/2012 10:32:53 PM   
PaxMondo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Puhis


quote:

ORIGINAL: fcharton

quote:

ORIGINAL: Puhis
Pax, you are reading the combat report wrong. 9 x Ki-43-Ic Oscar sweeping at 35000 feet * means that after A2A combat, there was 9 Oscars left. So during A2A combat he lost 27 planes (shot down or retired).


Hi Puhis,

I don't understand. What does sweeping after A2A combat mean? The point of sweeping is to draw enemy fighters in battle, so after A2A combat, the sweep is over, no?


Game engine works that way: first there is A2A combat, then there is bombing phase. Fighter sweeps don't do any bombing, so game engine is only reporting how many planes survived A2A phase. In your case 9 out of 36.

quote:



I don't know what to think about high altitude sweeps. I have read both positions on the forum, from people who all seemed to know what they were talking about. I had the impression that the majority view is that altitude trumps pretty much everything (including maneuver), hence the high sweeps. To be fair, I think both positions (sweep at best maneuver band vs sweep at highest altitude) were supported by examples, which comforts me in the idea that the variance inside the engine is making everybody right, and wrong, and right again.

This said, the same logic should apply to CAP as well (the hurricanes are not high altitude fighters either), so the logical result would either be nothing, or a disproportionate number of ops losses, but not the A2A battle I just saw.

Francois


Well, you can listen to those giving BS advices. Or you can listen to me. I'm playing solely Japan and always PDU off, so Oscars are my main army fighters until late 1943. And believe me, I know how to use Oscars.

Oscar is slower than any allied fighter and have poor guns. Oscar's only advantages vs. early allied fighters are superb maneuver at lower altitude and better climb rate. And maybe better pilots. Use them.

If you sweep with Oscar Ic, fly below 15k feet. Forger second best band, with Oscar Ic use always the best. Or ignore my advice, keep flying strato-sweeps and loose half a sentai each day.


Puhis is one of the original devs. So his info is about as accurate as it can get. Yes, he is a bit 'terse', but then he's been around here a long time and his reaction to 'venting' isn't always perfect.

Sorry my interpretation was a bit off, but I did say I'm not an expert on reading the reports. Puhis is.

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Post #: 378
RE: Perfection, of a kind, spence (A) vs fcharton (J) - 12/14/2012 10:48:37 PM   
fcharton

 

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"Terse" isn't the word I had in mind, but then, english is not my first language...

Sorry about starting all that, I should have known. Let's just get back to the game, and our (well, my) scheduled blunders.
Francois

< Message edited by fcharton -- 12/14/2012 10:50:33 PM >

(in reply to PaxMondo)
Post #: 379
RE: Perfection, of a kind, spence (A) vs fcharton (J) - 12/15/2012 3:16:31 AM   
PaxMondo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: fcharton

"Terse" isn't the word I had in mind, but then, english is not my first language...

Sorry about starting all that, I should have known. Let's just get back to the game, and our (well, my) scheduled blunders.
Francois

You're doing quite well.

In thi sinstance, your planned sweeps were just a bit too risky. Puhis' comments are accurate. If you need to sweep from the mainland, then you want to do so at 10K ... not 35K. And make sure your planes are well repaired as well as your pilots rested. I would prolly do this with the mini-KB instead, but that is personal preference.

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Post #: 380
RE: Perfection, of a kind, spence (A) vs fcharton (J) - 12/15/2012 6:35:31 AM   
Puhis

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

Puhis is one of the original devs. So his info is about as accurate as it can get.




No I'm not any kind of dev.

But I know that Oscars sucks when they fly really high.

Comparing maneuver ratings of Oscar Ic and Hurricane IIb shows us that below 15k, Oscar have 22 point advantage. Above 15k it's 15 points, above 20k it's 9 points and above 30k it's only 5 points. Oscar Ic is not a good plane, but if you use it right you can beat Hurricanes until you get something better. I've had best results sweeping at 12-15k, and terrible losses flying really high.

(in reply to PaxMondo)
Post #: 381
RE: Perfection, of a kind, spence (A) vs fcharton (J) - 12/15/2012 7:43:06 AM   
fcharton

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo
And make sure your planes are well repaired as well as your pilots rested. I would prolly do this with the mini-KB instead, but that is personal preference.


I have a question: how do you make sure your planes are repaired? I know how to rest the pilots, but I have no idea of what to do with the planes. Frame fatigue seems to accumulate over time, until the plane either crashes or get damaged, and is then repaired, is there any way to improve this/force maintenance of a specific squadron?

I am a bit wary of using the mini-KB there. I don't know where the US carriers are, the real KB is at a low four ship level while some of its components refit in Japan, I'd prefer to use the carriers for raiding operations.


(in reply to PaxMondo)
Post #: 382
RE: Perfection, of a kind, spence (A) vs fcharton (J) - 12/15/2012 10:47:07 AM   
PaxMondo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: fcharton


quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo
And make sure your planes are well repaired as well as your pilots rested. I would prolly do this with the mini-KB instead, but that is personal preference.


I have a question: how do you make sure your planes are repaired? I know how to rest the pilots, but I have no idea of what to do with the planes. Frame fatigue seems to accumulate over time, until the plane either crashes or get damaged, and is then repaired, is there any way to improve this/force maintenance of a specific squadron?

I am a bit wary of using the mini-KB there. I don't know where the US carriers are, the real KB is at a low four ship level while some of its components refit in Japan, I'd prefer to use the carriers for raiding operations.



AC repair:
2 ways on this:
1. Stand down for a few turns with good AV and big base and you will see the planes repair up.
2. replace all the planes (change to a different model and then change back). They will come back as brand new. This will take many days depending upon SR.

Which way to go depends upon how beat up the group is. Of course to use 2, you have to have good pools of two models (like Nate/Oscar)

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(in reply to fcharton)
Post #: 383
RE: Perfection, of a kind, spence (A) vs fcharton (J) - 12/15/2012 11:00:25 AM   
fcharton

 

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Thanks a lot. I suspected standing down would help, but it is difficult to track, since it doesn't get reported in tracker. Normally, Bangkok qualifies as a big base with lots of aviation support, I will try to investigate.

As for the second method, it wouldn't work with PDU off, would it?

(in reply to PaxMondo)
Post #: 384
RE: Perfection, of a kind, spence (A) vs fcharton (J) - 12/15/2012 12:05:17 PM   
PaxMondo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: fcharton

Thanks a lot. I suspected standing down would help, but it is difficult to track, since it doesn't get reported in tracker. Normally, Bangkok qualifies as a big base with lots of aviation support, I will try to investigate.

As for the second method, it wouldn't work with PDU off, would it?


Francois, you will have to try (in a test bed). I've never played PDU OFF as it does not interest me so I really do not know.

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(in reply to fcharton)
Post #: 385
RE: Perfection, of a kind, spence (A) vs fcharton (J) - 12/15/2012 8:01:02 PM   
Puhis

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: fcharton


As for the second method, it wouldn't work with PDU off, would it?



No.

(in reply to fcharton)
Post #: 386
RE: Perfection, of a kind, spence (A) vs fcharton (J) - 12/16/2012 12:18:44 PM   
fcharton

 

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July 9th 1942

Night battle in Trinkat


In the Andamans, Trinkat was captured today by the base force that landed yesterday. During the night, an enemy task force (CA Exeter, CL Marblehead and DD Isaac Sweers) closed in and seek battle. Two cargoes (Mikasa maru, and Hakubasan maru) were unloading the troops, covered by three destroyers (Asagiri, Sagiri, and Yugiri, henceforth known as the “three giris”).

There was little moonlight, and it was raining, so detection occurred at close range (2000 feet). The unloading cargoes were easily sunk by the Exeter, but the Asagiri bombarded the Marblehead, and the Sagiri finished her with a Long lance attack. Then, the three Japanese destroyers escaped.

I have lost two cargoes and a hefty fraction of a base force, for CL Marblehead, the fifteenth allied CL sunk since the beginning of the war. I believe this was a good trade: my base force will repair damage, the Marblehead won’t.

Later that day, carrier aircraft were spotted over Car Nicobar and Trinkat. Those cannot be the British Carriers that were around Timor two days ago, so it is either a second British Carrier squadron (Indomitable and Hermes), or the Americans. Against the British, I have my chances if they close in (I have several surface forces that might jump at them, and lots of land base planes), against the US, it all depends on whether they are massed, but I have difficulty imagining all the US Carriers here.

I am retiring my ships to the nearest ports, put some Nells, Betties and Kates in Georgetown on long range low altitude attacks, just in case.

Getting ready

In Bangkok, my Oscars are rested and near full strength. I am giving a few days in the hope that the weather improves (we had storm forecasts, and now rain, and clear weather over Sumatra), and to let the frames repair. Then I will try a sweep at 14 000 feet, hoping it coordinates, and we can pay the Hurries back.

Pax, I did experiment with the upgrade buttons to try and change all the planes in a squadron, upgrading to the same plane, back one model, don’t seem to work, so I guess you just can’t do it with PDU off. This is one curious facet of this game: the player has almost perfect control over some aspects (pilots, ship repairs, upgrades and conversion, replacements in recent patches), but none on others (naval attack target selection, air frame maintenance).


In Chungking, Japanese AV are now over 4400. Fresh troops have arrived, together with several HQ and lots of support. The divisions that attacked recently are around 10 disruption, and 20 fatigue. The Chinese are still respawning (117 units in town now, against 70 when the battle began, and 108 a week ago), but their AV is now below 5 500. My last attack was 1:3, I have good hopes of achieving 1:1 odds soon.

In New Guinea, nothing is happening. The Australian brigade from Buna seems to have stopped in the jungle south of Salamaua, and the other brigade in Terapo seems to take a while to repair her disablements. Bombardment of my troops in Terapo is not very effective, and air reinforcements have brought their AV to 110 (against 30 when the Australians landed). They might reinforce overland from Port Moresby, which would suit me fine, as it would slow the campaign even more.

In Luganville, our submarines have not being successful, and the area is teeming with DE, so we might interrupt the submarine campaign. On the other hand, less and less task forces are being seen in the port, which suggests we succeeded in delaying enemy operations.


Thoughts

I took a day off from the game yesterday, and came back this morning with what I believe is a better understanding of the situation. Over the recent weeks, the slow going of the campaign in China made me put too much emphasis on the Pacific. My strategic goal is the capture of China, and then a land campaign in India. In the Indies, South Pacific, and everywhere else I am fighting a defensive war, trying to delay the Allies, and make every one of their moves cost.

Right now, the campaign in China is going fine, the siege of Chungking is longer than I hoped, but we’re only in July, and there are good chances that everything could be over in autumn, a very early date to be done with Chiang.

The Andamans and Burma are my second most important theater. The goal of the air battle over Port Blair is to prevent an Allied move into Burma by keeping enemy fighters busy, and forcing the bombers to fly largely ineffective night missions. Meanwhile, lots of anti-air units are on their way, with radar and better AA guns, I believe I can make even those night raids bloody affairs.

In the South Pacific, the situation seems to be back in control. I have a defensive line north of Buna and Terapo, two crack infantry divisions (18th and 38th) on their way through the jungle, and I believe a reckless attack on Guadalcanal will be costly for the Allies.

My main problem, I believe, is that I spend too little time improving my defenses elsewhere. I need to garrison Flores, and the Marshalls, and those islands around Ambon, and my bases in Burma. I need to take the time to work on all this, looks at Tracker, get the units, set the transports, move everyone, prep, and click, click and click again.

Thinking of it, this might be one of the reasons why discussions about this game, between people who like it (our AAR are the proof: you don’t spend months playing a game you don’t like), sometimes get a bit overboard. We all know this game means a long term commitment (you don’t play 1500 turns in a short while), that the system is very complex, and takes months, probably years, to master, and that the level of detail means lots of decisions, and calculations, and thoughts. But another important factor is the time needed to “just play one turn”. Thanks to the inimitable GG approach to computer interface (want this? I’ll add a button), you need a while to play each turn, and most of the time is not spent thinking about the game, but about the details of the “inner systems” and user interface.

Right now, I need about two hours to play a turn, including watching the replay (and I am not going into the details of each action, on fast speed, the bombardment of Chungking takes over 10 minutes), saving and sending the game to my opponent, loading the turn into tracker, having a look at the situation, checking all the CS resource convoys, to dock them when they don’t (they usually don’t), working on the three or four important places that need to be addressed this day, and then doing some of the rest. And note that after those two hours, I have done very little of the background work, ie reinforcing bases, building things, looking at the economy, improving patrols, moving troops, caring about pilots and squadrons, looking at leaders…

This might be one aspect of the frustration we often feel. You can’t play such a long game without commiting fully to it, but committing a long campaign also means committing to two hours a day just sending the turns around, and probably four or five every other or third turn, most of this additional time being spent clicking, and fighting the system.

Maybe, that’s the reason why we resent the system when it becomes unfriendly, and why terse comments like “you did that wrong”, and slightly patronizing explanations about the historical relevance of this or that click process, are not always taken in good jest.

I’m still dreaming of a new interface for this game. I explained my views on this a couple of months ago, on a thread Bullwinkle had started against the “next version of AE”. I believe it would be technically feasible, because the engine, and the interface are quite separated (Tracker is the proof), and the system can be ‘taken as granted’ by the interface designers. Good programs are usually the result of different people thinking about the calculations (the model, the OOB, the game engine), and the interface (the map, the display, and the click process). I have my doubts on whether this might happen, though…


Non AE related

I used not to be very interested in naval warfare and sea stories, but began to read some under the influence of AE. Yesterday, I finished my first Horatio Hornblower novel, and had one of those ‘how could I live and not know about that’ moment. I’m subscribed, as they say on this forum, and interested in other age of sails novels (military or not). I also need to read a bit about ships, because I’m really suffering with the technical terms…

I first heard of Forrester when reading David Weber Honor Harrington novels, which try to transpose age of sails situation in the space age. Harrington are pretty good reads, in my opinion, the influence from Forrester is very clear, the science behind it is decent (not great, mind you, but decent), the politics and social ideas are pretty tame, but this is, unfortunately, very typical in SF. But his “naval” combats are good.


Oh, and for the wine drinkers here, had a Cornas yesterday. It is a northern Rhone Valley red wine, the vineyard is not very far from Cote Rotie, but on the other bank of the Rhone, and the Cornas only use Syrah as their grapes. The result is a very dark and strong wine, which might cost slightly less than the more famous Cote Rotie. 2009 is a very good year, and can be drunk now (Rhone valley wines don’t really keep, in my opinion). I’m finishing it for lunch today, but have three more bottles of it in the cellar. Life is good!

(in reply to Puhis)
Post #: 387
RE: Perfection, of a kind, spence (A) vs fcharton (J) - 12/16/2012 12:32:28 PM   
PaxMondo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: fcharton

Oh, and for the wine drinkers here, had a Cornas yesterday. It is a northern Rhone Valley red wine, the vineyard is not very far from Cote Rotie, but on the other bank of the Rhone, and the Cornas only use Syrah as their grapes. The result is a very dark and strong wine, which might cost slightly less than the more famous Cote Rotie. 2009 is a very good year, and can be drunk now (Rhone valley wines don’t really keep, in my opinion). I’m finishing it for lunch today, but have three more bottles of it in the cellar. Life is good!


Ach, to be in europe where you might find these ... my only saving grace are friends who bring me back some Dalmatian vintages every summer.

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Post #: 388
RE: Perfection, of a kind, spence (A) vs fcharton (J) - 12/19/2012 10:13:21 PM   
fcharton

 

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July 10th 1942

Bombers


Both my opponent and my bombers made it through the CAP screen today. In the morning, two groups of B17-E bombed Rabaul. The first one, flying over 10 000 feet, was intercepted by the CAP, a bomber was shot down and another one damaged. The second one flew lowed, and managed to hit cargoes in the port.

Morning Air attack on Rabaul , at 106,125
Weather in hex: Partial cloud
Raid spotted at 12 NM, estimated altitude 5,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 3 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 20
A6M3 Zero x 1

Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 5

Allied aircraft losses
B-17E Fortress: 4 damaged

Japanese Ships
AKE Tatuno Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
xAK Toyohasi Maru, Bomb hits 1
xAK Asakaze Maru, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires


Both ships are in better shape than the report suggests, but I need to fly some fighters are lower altitudes.


In the afternoon, we had a similar affair over Port Blair. Much to my surprise, Betties from Georgetown flew at very long range, and attacked the ships with bombs before the CAP could intervene.

Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Port Blair at 46,58
Weather in hex: Heavy cloud
Raid detected at 35 NM, estimated altitude 6,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 12 minutes
Japanese aircraft
G4M1 Betty x 16

Allied aircraft
Hurricane IIb Trop x 18
Hurricane IIc Trop x 5
P-38E Lightning x 7
P-40E Warhawk x 5

Japanese aircraft losses
G4M1 Betty: 1 destroyed, 1 damaged

Allied Ships
xAKL Nanchang
CL Ceres, Bomb hits 1, on fire
CLAA Van Heemskerck, Bomb hits 1
xAKL Katong, Bomb hits 2, and is sunk


I am not trying my luck again tomorrow, as it seems clear low CAP will be there, but I have ordered all the surface forces in Singapore to merge with the battleship force now in Georgetown and attack Port Blair in a few days. If my opponent takes his time unloading, the Allies might be short of a few more cruisers by the end of the week…

More wait

The troops in Chungking should be ready in a few days. I have more than 4500 AV in town now, against 5400 unsupplied enemies. Our last attack achieved 1:3 odds, but failed to reduce the forts (level three now). I have good hopes for the next one.

In the South, two divisions and a brigade have arrived in Liuchow. I am bombarding tomorrow, to assess enemy strength.

In Bangkok, my fighters are ready. I am waiting a few more days: my opponent seems to be reinforcing his CAP to protect his ships, which means more fatigue. I will be ready to attack tomorrow, just waiting for a decent weather forecast.

I am not playing very seriously, these days. Turns get done, and sent, but I am not spending a lot of time on them. My goal is to keep the war going, until interest comes back (it certainly will).

(in reply to PaxMondo)
Post #: 389
RE: Perfection, of a kind, spence (A) vs fcharton (J) - 12/19/2012 10:35:21 PM   
SqzMyLemon


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quote:

ORIGINAL: fcharton

I am not playing very seriously, these days. Turns get done, and sent, but I am not spending a lot of time on them. My goal is to keep the war going, until interest comes back (it certainly will).


I think the fall of Chungking will help in that regard. Sometimes these long sieges just suck the life out of you, but once you are victorious you'll get a new lease on life and get ready to plan the next move.

In my other PBEM as the Allies, I've sure noticed the change in air combat when it comes to the height difference between CAP and attacking bombers and how it influences the chance of interception. My opponent was flying CAP at 30k (we've unfortunately both resorted to using that altitude to try and gain the dive bonus) and I sent in a large raid of B-24's at only 8k to target an airbase. The CAP got a couple of passes and that was it before the bombers completely smashed the airfield and were gone. There were other factors contributing to poor interception of course, but it definitely shows there's a price to pay for being caught out of position from flying too high.

After the fall of Chungking you can get cracking on shoring up your defensive positions. Get those troops deployed, grab a shovel and get digging.

< Message edited by SqzMyLemon -- 12/19/2012 10:37:08 PM >


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Post #: 390
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