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RE: Gnikam eht ni retsasid - Oloren USSR, Terje Axis, No Oloren

 
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RE: Gnikam eht ni retsasid - Oloren USSR, Terje Axis, N... - 6/5/2012 10:28:42 PM   
randallw

 

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Quite a noble sacrifice by the Romanians, to voluntarily die for Germany.

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RE: Gnikam eht ni retsasid - Oloren USSR, Terje Axis, N... - 6/6/2012 2:04:01 PM   
RCH


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I am not sure of the proper course of action once Romania falls. You may want to consider this though: I would put a number of security units in Romanian cities. I would put two cavalry units on the Hungarian/ Romanian border ready to rush in once the Romanians fall. When Romania falls you will not want to fight for it, but fall back and cover the mountain passes to protect Hungary. Just a simple delay action inside Romania. Protect yourself from the Soviets landing troops by ship ( I would do this if it was me) once Romania falls.

Disband the air units. A lot of those planes are German anyway.

The above is just a suggestion. I am not sure what the beat course of action is.

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RE: Gnikam eht ni retsasid - Oloren USSR, Terje Axis, N... - 6/6/2012 2:55:51 PM   
terje439


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quote:

ORIGINAL: randallw

Quite a noble sacrifice by the Romanians, to voluntarily die for Germany.


Not sure about the word Voluntarily though


Terje

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RE: Gnikam eht ni retsasid - Oloren USSR, Terje Axis, N... - 6/6/2012 2:58:23 PM   
terje439


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RCH

I am not sure of the proper course of action once Romania falls. You may want to consider this though: I would put a number of security units in Romanian cities. I would put two cavalry units on the Hungarian/ Romanian border ready to rush in once the Romanians fall. When Romania falls you will not want to fight for it, but fall back and cover the mountain passes to protect Hungary. Just a simple delay action inside Romania. Protect yourself from the Soviets landing troops by ship ( I would do this if it was me) once Romania falls.

Disband the air units. A lot of those planes are German anyway.

The above is just a suggestion. I am not sure what the beat course of action is.


I agree, however I think that when Rumania falls things will turn bad really quickly as that means more front for me to cover. I will have to figure out a defensive line I am able to hold for as long as possible, but yes, garrisoning their cities will be a must. I like the idea of using cav at the border, and the idea of holding the mountains is a very sound one.


Terje

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RE: Gnikam eht ni retsasid - Oloren USSR, Terje Axis, N... - 6/6/2012 3:04:42 PM   
terje439


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Turn 98

Overall
The USSR keep moving up to my new line, and the only attacks they make are against the Rumanians left on the front. After this turn alot of the Rumanian units have a CV of 0, and a TOE of 5-10%. They are useless now. Even more so than before.
The USSR make 9 attacks, causinf 6 retreats and 3 routs. Our attempt to make a counterattack fails, and the result is a held.

Losses
USSR : 54.000 troops, 459 guns, 128 AFVs, 245 AC.
Axis : 27.000 troops, 291 guns, 13 AFVs, 45 AC.

Pools
Manpower : 438.957
Vehicle : 188.156
Armaments : 221.758
Hiwi : 458

Pest control
We manage to force all 5 partisans on the map to retreat.

Lack of screenshot
There is really nothing to post a screenshot on at the moment.

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RE: Gnikam eht ni retsasid - Oloren USSR, Terje Axis, N... - 6/9/2012 6:26:10 AM   
terje439


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Turn 99

Overall
Another uneventful turn where nothing really happens (so no screenshot now either). The Hungarians are still out ahead of our defensive line in the south to save the last German division out there. For the time being, it seems they will all arrive in safety soon enough. There are not many turns of mud left though.
The USSR launch a total of 6 attacks, scoring 2 helds, 2 retreats,1 rout and 1 surrender (Rumanian Sec Div).

Losses
USSR : 61.000 troops, 493 guns, 118 AFVs, 228 AC.
Axis : 32.000 troops, 246 guns, 21 AFVs, 3 AC.

Pools
Manpower : 424.713
Vehicle : 191.472
Armaments : 224.031
Hiwi : 58

Pest control
No partisans appear this turn.

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RE: Gnikam eht ni retsasid - Oloren USSR, Terje Axis, N... - 6/10/2012 9:42:13 AM   
terje439


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Turn 100

Overall
Althoguh the weather clears up, not much happens. We launch a few attacks to drive the enemy back, hunt down some partisans and readjust what unit goes where to maximize our defensive CV along the front. All units are now back at the defensive line (save one Rum Inf Div left as garrison. It will surrender next turn).
We make 5 attacks, scoring 1 held and 4 retreats while the USSR launch 2 attacks, gaining them 1 held and 1 retreat.

Losses
USSR : 72.000 troops, 751 guns, 148 AFVs, 216 AC.
Axis : 23.000 troops, 259 guns, 18 AFVs, 3 AC.

Pools
Manpower : 418.274
Vehicle : 200.051
Armaments : 238.820
Hiwi : 3

Pest control
3 partisans are hunted down this turn.

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RE: Gnikam eht ni retsasid - Oloren USSR, Terje Axis, N... - 6/11/2012 1:24:04 PM   
terje439


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Turn 101

Overall
Mud arrives once more, but not before the USSR manages to force small holes in the front in two locations. Furthermore, the Italians are running home, this again means fewer units available to us, not good. The panzer divisions placed in reserve behind the front has performed very well and aided in halting some of the USSR attacks. All in all the USSR made 9 attacks, scoring 4 helds, 3 retreats and 2 routs.

Losses
USSR : 74.000 troops, 703 guns, 382 AFVs, 282 AC.
Axis : 29.000 troops, 352 guns, 32 AFVs, 34 AC.

Pools
Manpower : 420.945
Vehicles : 204.551
Armaments : 253.209
Hiwi : 0

Pest control
Due to the mud, we only manage to chase away 3 out of the 5 partisans on the map.






Attachment (1)

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RE: Gnikam eht ni retsasid - Oloren USSR, Terje Axis, N... - 6/12/2012 11:27:22 AM   
terje439


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Turn 102

Overall
No USSR attacks is always a good thing. Nothing happens on our side apart from radjusting the front in terms of CV, and the continued effort of building yet another fallback line.

Losses
USSR : 74.000 troops, 695 guns, 123 AFVs, 241 AC.
Axis : 18.000 troops, 94 guns, 12 AFVs, 43 AC.

Pools
Manpower : 424.103
Vehicle : 212.306
Armaments : 277.445
Hiwi : 3
In other words, we should easily be able to field another 10 fresh divisions...

Pest control
4 partisans are hunted down, clearing the map fo those annoying units.







Attachment (1)

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RE: Gnikam eht ni retsasid - Oloren USSR, Terje Axis, N... - 6/14/2012 1:31:53 PM   
terje439


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Turn 103

Overall
There is heavy fighting this turn, and then USSR actually breech the Neman-river-line near Kaunas. They take two hexes on "our" side of the river, and we are only able to throw them back from one of those hexes. Not good. The USSR makes a total of 19 attacks along the line, scoring 3 helds, 15 retreats and 1 rout. Seems our line will not hold for long. We manage 5 attacks (well manage might be the wrong term, we chose to conduct is probably better), resulting in 1 held, 2 retreats and 2 routs.

Losses
USSR : 199.000 troops, 2.282 guns, 925 AFVs, 743 AC.
Axis : 75.000 troops, 1.247 guns, 107 AFVs, 55 AC.
Losing too much of everything this turn...

Pools
Manpower : 426.831
Vehicle : 220.158
Armaments : 285.491
Hiwi : 1
I know this is my usual rant, but I really think there should be some way to increase the ammount of troops being made available as replacement as the Axis, as of now manpower means virtually nothing to me as I cannot use those men anyway...

Pest control
All 3 partisans that appear are chased away.







Attachment (1)

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RE: Gnikam eht ni retsasid - Oloren USSR, Terje Axis, N... - 6/14/2012 6:15:30 PM   
Blubel

 

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How many divisions do you have on refit behind the front?

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RE: Gnikam eht ni retsasid - Oloren USSR, Terje Axis, N... - 6/15/2012 1:40:34 AM   
bigbaba


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the problem of too low german armament production should be solved in a next patch.

germany did not lost the war because of a shortage of guns but men.

the country's economy produced enough to give everyone a rifle in the hand, even volkssturm and HJ at the end of the war.




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RE: Gnikam eht ni retsasid - Oloren USSR, Terje Axis, N... - 6/15/2012 1:47:16 AM   
hfarrish


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True, but armaments do govern artillery and anti-tank production, both of which Germany was notoriously lacking in (particularly the former).

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RE: Gnikam eht ni retsasid - Oloren USSR, Terje Axis, N... - 6/15/2012 3:20:43 AM   
Flaviusx


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Sigh. Every time I think we've nailed this armaments business, something like this happens.

I'm starting to think that in future games we need to distinguish between heavy and light armaments. Lumping it all together leads to weirdness like this, where a ton of manpower is locked in the pools. It should be possible to equip these people with infantry weapons, mortars, machine guns, etc., notwithstanding possible shortfalls in artillery production. Armaments in game terms covers too many things that aren't very fungible.







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RE: Gnikam eht ni retsasid - Oloren USSR, Terje Axis, N... - 6/15/2012 7:41:07 AM   
veji1

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Sigh. Every time I think we've nailed this armaments business, something like this happens.

I'm starting to think that in future games we need to distinguish between heavy and light armaments. Lumping it all together leads to weirdness like this, where a ton of manpower is locked in the pools. It should be possible to equip these people with infantry weapons, mortars, machine guns, etc., notwithstanding possible shortfalls in artillery production. Armaments in game terms covers too many things that aren't very fungible.




Wholehearteadly agree...It seems so obvious to separate a more durable light armament production/pool and a more fragile heavy armament production, that would degrade significantly as some effects of the long war are felt (Bombing of germany, lack of raw materials, etc...)

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RE: Gnikam eht ni retsasid - Oloren USSR, Terje Axis, N... - 6/15/2012 11:36:14 AM   
terje439


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Blubel

How many divisions do you have on refit behind the front?


Hmm not sure about the number really. I try to rotate them whenever I see a possibility. If you look at the screenshot above you can see one 8CV unit, that one was moved to the front and replaced by another that turn. I try to do this whenever I can to keep my frontline CV as high as possible while trying to refit mauled units. Hence the number fluctuates every turn.


Terje

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RE: Gnikam eht ni retsasid - Oloren USSR, Terje Axis, N... - 6/15/2012 11:37:04 AM   
terje439


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bigbaba

the problem of too low german armament production should be solved in a next patch.

germany did not lost the war because of a shortage of guns but men.

the country's economy produced enough to give everyone a rifle in the hand, even volkssturm and HJ at the end of the war.



I would be happy to send them to the front without any weapons atm


Terje

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RE: Gnikam eht ni retsasid - Oloren USSR, Terje Axis, N... - 6/15/2012 11:37:57 AM   
terje439


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hfarrish


True, but armaments do govern artillery and anti-tank production, both of which Germany was notoriously lacking in (particularly the former).


Hmm not my problem really, espesially SP-AT is available in high enough numbers to field two DIVISIONS of them...


Terje

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RE: Gnikam eht ni retsasid - Oloren USSR, Terje Axis, N... - 6/15/2012 11:39:00 AM   
terje439


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Sigh. Every time I think we've nailed this armaments business, something like this happens.

I'm starting to think that in future games we need to distinguish between heavy and light armaments. Lumping it all together leads to weirdness like this, where a ton of manpower is locked in the pools. It should be possible to equip these people with infantry weapons, mortars, machine guns, etc., notwithstanding possible shortfalls in artillery production. Armaments in game terms covers too many things that aren't very fungible.




1. Sorry for causing issues
2. One of you testers needs to start to play like an idiot (use my AARs on how to do this ).


Terje

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RE: Gnikam eht ni retsasid - Oloren USSR, Terje Axis, N... - 6/15/2012 11:40:26 AM   
terje439


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quote:

ORIGINAL: veji1

Wholehearteadly agree...It seems so obvious to separate a more durable light armament production/pool and a more fragile heavy armament production, that would degrade significantly as some effects of the long war are felt (Bombing of germany, lack of raw materials, etc...)


I would actually like to see the Axis player given some more control over how many men to send to the frontline units as well. The way I see it, atm I have the manpower for aprox 15 complete divisions...


Terje

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RE: Gnikam eht ni retsasid - Oloren USSR, Terje Axis, N... - 6/15/2012 11:47:25 AM   
terje439


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Turn 104

Overall
Aiaiai...
There goes that line...Thank heavens for mud which allowss me to save my units at least.
The USSR makes a total of 24 attacks, scoring 6 helds, 17 retreats and 1 rout this turn. It is a matter of time I think.

Losses
USSR : 120.000 troops, 1.343 guns, 483 AFVs, 420 AC.
Axis : 57.000 troops, 950 guns, 52 AFVs, 35 AC.

Pools
Manpower : 431.759
Vehicles : 220.539
Armaments : 277.234
Hiwi : 9

Pest control
A partisan has the nerve to appear this turn. It is promptly delt with!








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RE: Gnikam eht ni retsasid - Oloren USSR, Terje Axis, N... - 6/15/2012 1:30:32 PM   
bigbaba


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would be a nice idea to seperate armament in light and heavy.

light would consist infantry weapons and panzerfaust and heavy AT and artilery.

the heavy weapon shortage of the german army is a good point and should be simulated. the shortage was so painful that the late war german anti tank defense was more or less only about panzerfaust and panzerschreck.

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RE: Gnikam eht ni retsasid - Oloren USSR, Terje Axis, N... - 6/15/2012 2:08:17 PM   
hfarrish


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Definitely agree - it is a crazy outcome to have tons of SP-Art in the pools but no rifles for the infantry.

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RE: Gnikam eht ni retsasid - Oloren USSR, Terje Axis, N... - 6/15/2012 2:58:47 PM   
notenome

 

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I've been thinking about the whole Axis armament thing, some thoughts:

1- Part of the reason German production is so low is that 41 is a bit of an aberation. After the Greek campaign there was a question of what to do with the vehicles and heavy equipment of 2nd and 5th panzer division. Hitler opted to move them by ship out of Greece instead of overland, where they were torpedoed. This meant that for the first dozen or so weeks of Barbarossa these divisionns were being built up to strength, which is why so few tanks and heavy weapons reached the front, as effectively there was an entire panzercorps on refit mode (the one that shows up on turn 13).

So this distorts early war German production. There are two possible solutions: 1) increase German production and place XXXX Panzer Corps on refit mode at the map edge frozen until turn 13. The reason to do this is that this wasn't a strategic reserve, but an existing corps that was having itself built back up. 2) Keep things as they are but give German production a boost past turn 12.

2- The game doesn't model enough the huge spike in production experienced by Germany in 43-44. As mentioned before, the allied bombing campaign's main effect was not to distort German production, but to tie down a large amount of resources (AA guns and planes) in the defense of the Reich. My brother (an economist) has a fascination with this and has read more books than I'd like to admit on the subject. Germany had access to more raw materials (except oil) than the Soviets. By 1944 German production was triple 1942 in both aircraft and tanks and SP Guns, coming within a hairs breath of matching Soviet production (see table). It was, of course, too little too late, but the Germans realized the same thing the Soviets did: They couldn't sustain their losses so the brunt of casualties had to be transferred from personnel losses to equipment losses. The amount of heavy weapons and firepower was drastically increased per division even as headcount decreased. One possible solution to this would be to introduce a 43 OOB for German infantry that decreases rifle squads and increases heavy weapons (especially machine guns), making them tougher and slower.

So yeah, there goes. Sorry for the thread highjack but it felt like a pertinent thing to post.




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< Message edited by notenome -- 6/15/2012 3:00:06 PM >

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RE: Gnikam eht ni retsasid - Oloren USSR, Terje Axis, N... - 6/15/2012 6:53:35 PM   
notenome

 

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One last post:

Automatic weapons production statistics

1940 171.000
1941 325.000
1942 317.000
1943 435.000
1944 787.000

Source: "The Penguin Historical Atlas of the Third Reich" by Richard Overy

Artillery production statistics (over 37mm)

1939 ?
1940 5.000
1941 7.000
1942 12.000
1943 27.000
1944 41.000
1945 ?

Source: "The Penguin Historical Atlas of the Third Reich" by Richard Overy

If we take the production of MG42s (the backbone of German infantry post 41), 17,915 were built in 1942, 116,725 in 1943, 211,806 in 1944, and 61,877 in 1945 (source: wikipedia! Too lazy to find a proper source at the moment). By mid 1943 terje has only produced 418 of these (I'm assuming the larger number are MG43s). This means he's only producing less ( 116,725 / 2 + 17,915 = 76, 277 * .7 [production to other fronts] = 53,394. 418 / 53394 = .00782) than 1% the historical amount. If 9927 is the MG42 production, then its .185919, or 19%. Either way he's severly underproducing, which may not be an armament shortage, but an OOB problem, as the number of machine guns in infantry divisions rose dramatically from 43 onwards to compensate for manpower shortages.

< Message edited by notenome -- 6/15/2012 7:16:41 PM >

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RE: Gnikam eht ni retsasid - Oloren USSR, Terje Axis, N... - 6/15/2012 8:07:49 PM   
traemyn

 

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Those "Tanks and self-propelled guns" numbers look funny to me. Just from a quick search on production numbers of tanks/afvs, it seems like you are listing a total per year for the Soviets and a running total for the Germans.

http://www.battle-fleet.com/pw/his/Tank_Production_Germany_ww2.htm
If you add up the numbers in 1944 they don't come close to your numbers.


http://www.ospreypublishing.com/articles/world_war_2/holding_back_soviet_onslaught/

"In comparison with the figures for 1942, German production of AFVs during 1943, for example, increased from 3,118 to 11,546 vehicles."

What am I missing?


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RE: Gnikam eht ni retsasid - Oloren USSR, Terje Axis, N... - 6/15/2012 8:28:00 PM   
Kronolog

 

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quote:

If we take the production of MG42s (the backbone of German infantry post 41), 17,915 were built in 1942, 116,725 in 1943, 211,806 in 1944, and 61,877 in 1945 (source: wikipedia! Too lazy to find a proper source at the moment). By mid 1943 terje has only produced 418 of these (I'm assuming the larger number are MG43s). This means he's only producing less ( 116,725 / 2 + 17,915 = 76, 277 * .7 [production to other fronts] = 53,394. 418 / 53394 = .00782) than 1% the historical amount. If 9927 is the MG42 production, then its .185919, or 19%. Either way he's severly underproducing, which may not be an armament shortage, but an OOB problem, as the number of machine guns in infantry divisions rose dramatically from 43 onwards to compensate for manpower shortages.


But those 418 aren't really machine-guns, they are MG-sections. The number doesn't include the organic machine-guns included in the infantry, panzer grenadier and pioneer sections, nor those fitted to AFVs.

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RE: Gnikam eht ni retsasid - Oloren USSR, Terje Axis, N... - 6/15/2012 8:28:00 PM   
Walloc

 

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Was about to say the same. Tallied all Pz III through Pz VI production, plus all major jgpz 38t through JgpzV and stug types for the entire war and i got up too 37k'ish.
Dunno what Overy includes in his numbers but they seem off or includes stuff not immidate apparent. If u look in game the weekly AFV production is many times higher in '44 opposed to '41 as it should be.

About his Artillery numbers they include Anti air artillery so if u look at actual gun making it to the east front those figurs are some what misleading as more and more of the production is AA guns, used in the defence of the reich.
According to Overy him self 2/3 of all artillery ammo produced in '44 is for AA artillery.
Another point where things get to generic in game, but it is as, as it is. Supply being supply no matter. Germans never had a lack of small arms ammo, but alrdy from '43 and more so in '44+ widespread lack of artilley ammo has a big impact on the firepower of the german artillery. The average daily alloted ammo supply is between 20 to 25% of the needed for all artillery in the 7th army in normandy. Doesnt help to have a tube if u got nothing comming out of it.

Kind regards,

Rasmus

< Message edited by Walloc -- 6/15/2012 8:30:48 PM >

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RE: Gnikam eht ni retsasid - Oloren USSR, Terje Axis, N... - 6/16/2012 10:21:56 AM   
terje439


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Turn 105

Disclaimer
Did not really find anything that was worth a picture this turn.

Overall
I try to push the enemy back from the hexes they took in my line. I would have been better off trying to scare them with harsh language it seems. We launch 6 attacks and score no better than 4 helds, 1 retreat and 1 rout. Depressing.
The Italians withdraw this turn. Hmm that ain't good either, need to find myself some new diggers...

Losses
USSR : 103.000 troops, 1.131 guns, 299 AFVs, 247 AC.
Axis : 35.000 troops, 381 guns, 86 AFVs, 6 AC.

Pools
Manpower : 438.225
Vehicles : 225.538
Armaments : 295.960
Hiwi : 0

Pest control
Our rear area units chase away the one partisan that does appear.

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RE: Gnikam eht ni retsasid - Oloren USSR, Terje Axis, N... - 6/16/2012 2:14:56 PM   
hfarrish


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Walloc

Was about to say the same. Tallied all Pz III through Pz VI production, plus all major jgpz 38t through JgpzV and stug types for the entire war and i got up too 37k'ish.
Dunno what Overy includes in his numbers but they seem off or includes stuff not immidate apparent. If u look in game the weekly AFV production is many times higher in '44 opposed to '41 as it should be.

About his Artillery numbers they include Anti air artillery so if u look at actual gun making it to the east front those figurs are some what misleading as more and more of the production is AA guns, used in the defence of the reich.
According to Overy him self 2/3 of all artillery ammo produced in '44 is for AA artillery.
Another point where things get to generic in game, but it is as, as it is. Supply being supply no matter. Germans never had a lack of small arms ammo, but alrdy from '43 and more so in '44+ widespread lack of artilley ammo has a big impact on the firepower of the german artillery. The average daily alloted ammo supply is between 20 to 25% of the needed for all artillery in the 7th army in normandy. Doesnt help to have a tube if u got nothing comming out of it.

Kind regards,

Rasmus



Good call - I had the same thought, those figures seemed way too high to me (particularly armor) and its pretty well known that the Wehrmacht was desperately short of artillery and AT and, as you point out, ammo for such.

(in reply to Walloc)
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