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Using the B7A2 Grace

 
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Using the B7A2 Grace - 2/21/2012 7:29:25 PM   
Icedawg


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Status: offline 		Okay, I haven't ever gotten far enough into a game to play around with this plane, but I was just curious how she works.

It's classified as a DB, but its primary payload is a torpedo. How did it perform its attack run? Did it dive semi vertically and then flatten out just above the surface of the water to drop its fish? Sounds like the pilot had to be a complete psycho to even think about trying it.

In game terms, what altitude do you use? 10k since it is a DB, or something around 5k like you would use for the Kate or the Jill?

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RE: Using the B7A2 Grace - 2/21/2012 8:05:36 PM   
Terminus


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Status: online 		It works the same way as the Barracuda (which is also a torpedo-carrying dive bomber in the game). They both had dive brakes for bomb attacks, but torpedo attacks were carried out the way you'd expect.

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RE: Using the B7A2 Grace - 2/21/2012 8:10:57 PM   
Commander Stormwolf

 

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Status: offline 		Probably it needs to be separated into a Dive and Torpedo variants,

in game it means only dive squadrons can upgrade and that means pilots
with high dive skill and poor torpedo skill.. making the torpedo function less effective

unless you are using 20exp rookies
and by that point in the war it doesn't really matter

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RE: Using the B7A2 Grace - 2/21/2012 8:19:44 PM   
EUBanana


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Status: offline 		Barracudas are awesome, its good to have the choice. Also means that when they are out of torpedoes they are still real effective!

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RE: Using the B7A2 Grace - 2/21/2012 9:12:12 PM   
Terminus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Commander Stormwolf

Probably it needs to be separated into a Dive and Torpedo variants,



That would kinda defeat the purpose of a multi-role aircraft. The Barracuda could do both, even if it couldn't do them well. I can imagine quite a lot of whining if we wasted people's time that way, but modders can obviously do what they want.

< Message edited by Terminus -- 2/21/2012 9:13:12 PM >

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RE: Using the B7A2 Grace - 2/21/2012 9:49:17 PM   
Shark7


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Status: offline 		The AD-1 Skyraider was the same in USN service. Was designed as a DB, could carry torpedoes, very effective (they stayed in service until the 1970s as a testament as to how good they were). Also a side note, the last air to air kill by a propeller driven aircraft was made by a A-1 Skyraider, 2 instances in Vietnam War of them shooting down MiG-17s.

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RE: Using the B7A2 Grace - 2/21/2012 9:56:09 PM   
Commander Stormwolf

 

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Status: offline 		need separate variant so you can convert torpedo units to fly it also,
but if I were making WITP 2: Pacific Simulator

1) the grace can only be deployed from Taiho and Shinano as it wouldn't fit aboard the other CVs

2) The Saiun can be used as a torpedo bmr


*historical event #1: Saiun is carrying a 730L drop tank for massive range so it can take pictures of the USN CV groups

*historical event #2: *no Grummans can catch us*, Saiun can outpace the hellcat

*historical event #3: Saiun is within 11m in length so it can fit on all IJN CV elevators


so.. no one put a torpedo on this plane? did the IJN want to lose the war on purpose?




380mph torpedo plane would be pretty useful in 1944 ~

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< Message edited by Commander Stormwolf -- 2/21/2012 10:00:18 PM >

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RE: Using the B7A2 Grace - 2/21/2012 10:10:29 PM   
Shark7


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Commander Stormwolf

need separate variant so you can convert torpedo units to fly it also,
but if I were making WITP 2: Pacific Simulator

1) the grace can only be deployed from Taiho and Shinano as it wouldn't fit aboard the other CVs

2) The Saiun can be used as a torpedo bmr


*historical event #1: Saiun is carrying a 730L drop tank for massive range so it can take pictures of the USN CV groups

*historical event #2: *no Grummans can catch us*, Saiun can outpace the hellcat

*historical event #3: Saiun is within 11m in length so it can fit on all IJN CV elevators


so.. no one put a torpedo on this plane? did the IJN want to lose the war on purpose?




380mph torpedo plane would be pretty useful in 1944 ~


Wasn't designed as a torpedo bomber though, might have had to do with wing loading stress that prevented it. No way to know why really. Would be a nice thing to see though.

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RE: Using the B7A2 Grace - 2/21/2012 10:19:40 PM   
Commander Stormwolf

 

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Status: offline 		no it carried a 730L drop tank, weights about the same as a torpedo

plus it carries a lot of internal fuel (you could sacrifice about 30% of the range and replace those with self-sealing tanks)


fun to play with the editor..

thank you to all developers for making this game (educational tool? monster?) possible

< Message edited by Commander Stormwolf -- 2/21/2012 10:24:25 PM >

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RE: Using the B7A2 Grace - 2/21/2012 10:27:35 PM   
Shark7


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Commander Stormwolf

no it carried a 730L drop tank, weights about the same as a torpedo

plus it carries a lot of internal fuel (you could sacrifice about 30% of the range and replace those with self-sealing tanks)


fun to play with the editor..

thank you to all developers for making this game (educational tool? monster?) possible


Kinda like that line of thought...extend out the C6 series to include an evolution to a torpedo bomber capable version, not just recon.

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RE: Using the B7A2 Grace - 2/21/2012 10:41:13 PM   
btbw

 

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Status: offline 		1. Not good torpedo bomber. High wing loading (developed as unarmed extreme light recon plane) without armour protection.
2. Add to this almost zero capability for self-defense (and even forgot about strafing when attacking)
3. Just dont needed plane for Japan when it ready.
Yes this plane can carry torpedo. But it overload this plane critically. Main thing for TB it ability for mantain attack course under attacks of figthers and flak fire. That need compromiss between wing load and protection. This plane dont have both. If you want use TB with lowest durability (if devs add this TB to game) than Ok. But in really this plane on low altitude just fragile, non-defended and sluggish fuel cistern. What good on 6000m alt not always good on 100m.
P.S. Also for TB high airspeed not good cuz torpedo stressed when enter in water and must have ability for rerun on course or even dont destroy when touching water. So attack course also mean you dont have 380mph.

< Message edited by btbw -- 2/21/2012 10:51:00 PM >

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RE: Using the B7A2 Grace - 2/21/2012 10:55:08 PM   
Icedawg


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

It works the same way as the Barracuda (which is also a torpedo-carrying dive bomber in the game). They both had dive brakes for bomb attacks, but torpedo attacks were carried out the way you'd expect.


Okay, so either select "Use Bombs" and go in at 10k, or select "Use Torpedoes" and go in at 5k. Thanks.

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RE: Using the B7A2 Grace - 2/21/2012 11:01:34 PM   
Icedawg


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Commander Stormwolf

Probably it needs to be separated into a Dive and Torpedo variants,

in game it means only dive squadrons can upgrade and that means pilots
with high dive skill and poor torpedo skill.. making the torpedo function less effective

unless you are using 20exp rookies
and by that point in the war it doesn't really matter


You can always transfer in some of your Netty pilots to use in your CV "dive squadrons" They'd have pretty decent Torpedo skill, especially if you seriously accelerate the Grace and actually get it to arrive in late 43 or early 44 (long before the war is over).

For another option, I believe the TB squadrons on CVs upgrade to the Grace as well (at least with PDU on).

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RE: Using the B7A2 Grace - 2/21/2012 11:02:51 PM   
Commander Stormwolf

 

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quote:

1. Not good torpedo bomber. High wing loading (developed as unarmed extreme light recon plane) without armour protection.


Kankoh (B5N) and Tenzan (B6N) also had no armor


quote:

2. Add to this almost zero capability for self-defense (and even forgot about strafing when attacking)


Mosquito says: speed is the best defence, especially if you are faster than a hellcat

*but i agree, putting a short barrel Type-99 20mm for the rear gunner would be appropriate,
in fact it should have been done on all japanese planes, those 7.7mm guns are useless against F6F armor

quote:

3. Just dont needed plane for Japan when it ready.


Would have been ready by early 1944 if it were a priority



quote:

Yes this plane can carry torpedo. But it overload this plane critically. Main thing for TB it ability for mantain attack course under attacks of figthers and flak fire. That need compromiss between wing load and protection. This plane dont have both. If you want use TB with lowest durability (if devs add this TB to game) than Ok. But in really this plane on low altitude just fragile, non-defended and sluggish fuel cistern. What good on 6000m alt not always good on 100m


Still think you are confused about wing loading and wing stress, P-47 has the highest wing loading of any fighter but it's as stable as a rock

Saiun engine was a 1-stage-2-speed Ha-45 for medium-low altitude, not a 3-stage Ha-32-25 or Ha-45-ru

still is amazing to me.. after the first message broadcast from a Saiun *no Grummans can catch us*, it was never fitted with torpedoes

an excellent design with laminar flow wings and a powerful engine - Myrt and the Dinah are two underrated japanese designs

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RE: Using the B7A2 Grace - 2/21/2012 11:28:20 PM   
crsutton


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Commander Stormwolf

[
*but i agree, putting a short barrel Type-99 20mm for the rear gunner would be appropriate,
in fact it should have been done on all japanese planes, those 7.7mm guns are useless against F6F armor




I was under the impression that this type of gun in the betty was a failure due to low velocity and slow rate of fire. Almost impossible for any but the best gunner to hit a deflection shot. Allied pilots just kept out of it's six and felt pretty safe.

12.7 mm is probably better choice.

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RE: Using the B7A2 Grace - 2/21/2012 11:35:38 PM   
Dili

 

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Status: offline 		A good torpedo bomber needs to have good maneuverability and an engine set for best performance at low level.

If the 380mph is max speed then it is not with a torpedo.A torpedo might cut 80mph or more since it is a small plane and that is at performance altitude. At sea level what was the speed?

730L fuel tank is not more than 700kg while 848kg torpedo itself about dozen kilos more with commands.




< Message edited by Dili -- 2/21/2012 11:49:42 PM >

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RE: Using the B7A2 Grace - 2/21/2012 11:44:40 PM   
Commander Stormwolf

 

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Status: offline 		20mm is a lot more effective per mass of ammo than 12.7mm (despite what some tv programs say, and the USN agreed)

F6F and F4U have lots of armor, so 20mm was really the minimum you need to knock them down

Ho-5 instead of the T-99-1 for the rear gunner would also be good (from 1944 onwards)

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RE: Using the B7A2 Grace - 2/21/2012 11:49:38 PM   
Commander Stormwolf

 

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quote:

A torpedo might cut 80mph or more since it is a small plane and that is at performance height.


300mph Saiun better than Tenzan (300mph - 80 = 220mph ),and the tenzan had a high-alt Ha-32 kasei engine, it lost more speed at low alt than a homare

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RE: Using the B7A2 Grace - 2/22/2012 10:17:31 AM   
btbw

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Commander Stormwolf
Kankoh (B5N) and Tenzan (B6N) also had no armor

But have much lesser wing load which give them ability for stay on course on airspeed close to torpedo release speed (read about limitation of airdropped torpedos). And high wing load cut off maneur and stable when speed going down. It close to japanese pilots on C6N trick same as used against Yamato in last trial
http://worldwar2database.com/gallery3/var/albums/wwii1247.jpg?m=1310179956
Yes B5N not have armour like C6N, B6N was better protected but still unadequate. But difference between close in armour non-protection B5N and C6N is huge difference between light AA ship defence and total air superiority of enemies.
It make C6N as TB much more weak against much more strong enemy. On air speed in range 100-180 mph on very low alt or max 300 mph on low alt it just turkey.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Commander Stormwolf
Mosquito says: speed is the best defence, especially if you are faster than a hellcat

*but i agree, putting a short barrel Type-99 20mm for the rear gunner would be appropriate,
in fact it should have been done on all japanese planes, those 7.7mm guns are useless against F6F armor

Again, it work on stage of seeking and diving in attack. When you in last stage - targetting and staying on course of torpedo releaese you already DONT HAVE 380 MPH.
You airspeed much lesser and cannot raise if yo dont want mission failure.
So best defence going to be NO DEFENCE.
Problem of light recon is no weight for advance in protection or self-defence etc.
It best fitted extreme low weight recon plane. Alot fuel, awesome speed. Add some things to this and you cut all airspeed dramatically.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Commander Stormwolf
Would have been ready by early 1944 if it were a priority

No it dont. In early 1944 Japs just start test high-speed torpedo bombing so how they can invent C6N TB if they dont know how use it? They had fine for them B6N and developing B7.
And when they open ability for high-speed torpedoing they use for this 2E planes Ki-67 and P1Y. Because these planes had more durability and can virtually penetrate CAP on their high airspeed and release torpedos on 300mph from alt 300. C6N when use this trick - dead on 100%.
Refitting of plane not so fast procedure like just putting torpedo. And just for info 750L fuel tank cannot be compared with aerial torpedo. It weight only 600kg and only on take-off. When you reach enemy you dont have drop tank and 600kg from it. TB dont have 900kg under belly only when he can read tactical number of attacked ship.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Commander Stormwolf
Still think you are confused about wing loading and wing stress, P-47 has the highest wing loading of any fighter but it's as stable as a rock

On what speed P-47 stable as rock?
On 150 MPH?
quote:

ORIGINAL: Commander Stormwolf
after the first message broadcast from a Saiun *no Grummans can catch us*, it was never fitted with torpedoes

an excellent design with laminar flow wings and a powerful engine

You probably dont understand limitation of advance plane construction. Nazi had very good Bf.109 fighter. Which accidentally cannot be advanced. Why? Limitatio of construction. C6N flying cistern had sane limit.

< Message edited by btbw -- 2/22/2012 12:11:43 PM >

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RE: Using the B7A2 Grace - 2/22/2012 3:04:23 PM   
Dili

 

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quote:

P-47 has the highest wing loading of any fighter but it's as stable as a rock


That is the problem for torpedo bombers. Stable as a rock don't let you follow the changes in last minute of the target.

Read about Savoia Marchetti SM.79 in my signature and the supposed evolution to it SM.84. High wing loading made SM.84 to be a failure as a torpedo plane, so in 1943 SM.79 almost 10 years from first flight was still being build.

< Message edited by Dili -- 2/22/2012 3:05:09 PM >

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RE: Using the B7A2 Grace - 2/22/2012 4:30:02 PM   
Commander Stormwolf

 

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quote:

Stable as a rock don't let you follow the changes in last minute of the target


TBF avenger did just fine

quote:

SM.84. High wing loading made SM.84 to be a failure as a torpedo plane


low production numbers made SM.84 a failiure (and total allied air supremacy in 1943)

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RE: Using the B7A2 Grace - 2/22/2012 4:31:52 PM   
Commander Stormwolf

 

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quote:

You probably dont understand limitation of advance plane construction


let's just say i am quite specialized in this field.

(and descended from the makers of them soviet subs)

< Message edited by Commander Stormwolf -- 2/22/2012 4:35:05 PM >

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RE: Using the B7A2 Grace - 2/22/2012 4:36:20 PM   
Commander Stormwolf

 

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quote:

they open ability for high-speed torpedoing they use for this 2E planes Ki-67 and P1Y


and they sank so many USN ships in 1944 right? it was called the great marianas torpedo shoot

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RE: Using the B7A2 Grace - 2/22/2012 4:47:27 PM   
Dili

 

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quote:

low production numbers made SM.84 a failiure (and total allied air supremacy in 1943)


Wrong. Read the history of both planes.

--------------
SM.79 wing loading 170kg/m2
Avenger wing loading 178kg/m2

Saiun wing loading with torpedo+and lets say 50kg equipment - and assuming it does not need structural reinforcement(5260kg is max weight) and self defense weapons: 4500+900kg(Torpedo 848kg+ etc)= 5400kg/25,5 = 211kg/m2
SM.84 wing loading: 217kg/m2

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RE: Using the B7A2 Grace - 2/22/2012 6:13:39 PM   
btbw

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Commander Stormwolf
and they sank so many USN ships in 1944 right? it was called the great marianas torpedo shoot

So japanese constructors can quick jump into future in Mariana?
Again. Constructors have order for build plane with flight characteristics and for certain purpose. If they got before option for make TB then probably they did TB. Not so good but anyway.
Only on forum you can easy add extra 500 kg and fly into sky. For real air production you must test, build, test, change, test, build again and again. Read how D3A died from cats when virtually sucessfull D4Y fighting with his wings.
Also look on this - recon plane dont have 900kg bomb load half of way. C6N had 600kg drop tank which going empty on first stage of fly (climbing, heading on ideal height, drop before contact with enemy).
Marianna battle it result of inexperienced pilots, chaotic command and total air superiority. Army pilots never had good experience for naval attacks. It was secondary priority for Army. P1Y was good plane in good hands. Japanese pilot managment was weird. So why you think you can achieve better results on overweighted plane, without defence used in same manner like historical Mariannas?


< Message edited by btbw -- 2/22/2012 6:36:04 PM >

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RE: Using the B7A2 Grace - 2/22/2012 6:27:05 PM   
btbw

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dili

That is the problem for torpedo bombers. Stable as a rock don't let you follow the changes in last minute of the target.

Read about Savoia Marchetti SM.79 in my signature and the supposed evolution to it SM.84. High wing loading made SM.84 to be a failure as a torpedo plane, so in 1943 SM.79 almost 10 years from first flight was still being build.

P-47 can be stable as rock which good for interceptor or tactic hit and run.
But in range of airspeeds good for torpedo bombing his stable going in uncontrolled diving cuz too low speed.
And yes TB on attack course must maintain alt (for calculate time before torpedo touch water, make hook and reach presetted depth of attack) and correct course from torpedo triangle calculation (also for confuse AA fire TB must have ability for fast ride in left and right side or even drop/raise airspeed fast, i post link on photo with attack on Yorktown when experienced pilot ride his plane to left-right and had AA fire explosions on the side from which he turned and behind, this pilot survive under heavy fire and returned).
If you have TB like Avenger you flying in critical range of flight characteristics for TB, but it cuz you have very well defence. Another aspect of sucess of Avengers it air superiority. We know what happen in Midaway with Avengers. Same like with Kates and Jills against Hellcats.

< Message edited by btbw -- 2/22/2012 6:28:46 PM >

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RE: Using the B7A2 Grace - 2/22/2012 6:27:28 PM   
btbw

 

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< Message edited by btbw -- 2/22/2012 6:28:29 PM >

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RE: Using the B7A2 Grace - 2/22/2012 9:03:41 PM   
Commander Stormwolf

 

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quote:

Saiun wing loading with torpedo+and lets say 50kg equipment - and assuming it does not need structural reinforcement(5260kg is max weight) and self defense weapons: 4500+900kg(Torpedo 848kg+ etc)= 5400kg/25,5 = 211kg/m2
SM.84 wing loading: 217kg/m2


Saiun wingload is 176
Avenger wingload is 178

anyway if a P-47 can strafe with 260kg/m2 then wingload doesn't really matter (except for dogfighting)

is it plausible that the Saiun could be used as a torpedo plane?

yes, especially since it could take off from Zuikaku/Unryu class carriers (11m length is the magic number)


this is the wing loading without ordnance for both Saiun or Avenger,
contrary to the posting below



< Message edited by Commander Stormwolf -- 2/22/2012 10:53:57 PM >

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RE: Using the B7A2 Grace - 2/22/2012 9:35:35 PM   
btbw

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Commander Stormwolf

quote:

Saiun wing loading with torpedo+and lets say 50kg equipment - and assuming it does not need structural reinforcement(5260kg is max weight) and self defense weapons: 4500+900kg(Torpedo 848kg+ etc)= 5400kg/25,5 = 211kg/m2
SM.84 wing loading: 217kg/m2


Saiun wingload is 176
Avenger wingload is 178

your data includes a torpedo for one, and no torpedo for the other
anyway if a P-47 can strafe with 260kg/m2 then wingload doesn't really matter (except for dogfighting)


is it plausible that the Saiun could be used as a torpedo plane?

yes, especially since it could take off from Zuikaku/Unryu class carriers (11m length is the magic number)

Nice you compare Fueled C6N WITHOUT BOMB LOAD with Fueled TBF Avenger with FISH in BELLY.
So easy compare just fast flying naked recon and torpedo bomber.
Strafe attack very short. You dont need maintain course/speed during few thousands meter length. You can make attacking maneur any time, spread out fire from all guns, anti-air maneur and make other round. Torpedo bomber must solve torpedo triangle + make prerequisits for this solving and for successul dropping torpedo.
If P-47 stable as rock drop his airspeed to 100-150 mph what he can strafe?
I know what happen with regular C6N on these speed. 100 mph it his landing speed. For prevent plane from falling japanese constructors used combination of Fowler and split flaps. It mean attack attempt as TB will need use these flaps for just dont fall in water. Forgot about maneur, correction or evasion. Stable as rock but trying stay in air TB.
C6N Sauin CAN BE TB. But dont hope to have Wunderwaffe from him.
Another example of dropping characteristics during modernisation.
We know about C6N and C6N1-S. First - recon with crew of 3 men and 1 MG. Second - NF with crew of 2 men and 1-2 cannons.
Different little. For prevent dropping characteristics when installed 2x20mm cannons japs remove observer. Ooops.

< Message edited by btbw -- 2/22/2012 10:09:47 PM >

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RE: Using the B7A2 Grace - 2/22/2012 11:38:37 PM   
Dili

 

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Joined: 9/10/2004
Status: offline 		Not it is not, the wing loading of Avenger is with maximum weight which includes the weapon. The wing loading of Saiun you presented is with 4500kg/25.5m2 weight which is without external fuel tank. The maximum weight of Saiun is 5260kg which for a 25.5m2 wing area is 206kg/m2. This weight is certainly with the drop tank. With a Torpedo you need to increase the maximum weight to around 5400kg like i wrote above and that makes 211 kg/m2.


You need to understand that an Avenger is much heavier and with almost double wing area of a Saiun. Saiun is a nimble plane and a 900kg fish in it is proportionally like putting a bomb load of 1500kg in Avenger. I also bet that structurally Saiun couldn't land with torpedo weight if it needed to return.
At least there is no reason for a request like that in the project.

(in reply to btbw)
Post #: 30
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