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Can we nerf this at some point next patch?

 
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Can we nerf this at some point next patch? - 2/17/2012 4:21:08 PM   
Pelton

 

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Before it becomes the flavor of the month?

It for one seems totally nonhistorical and is exploiting the rail conversion system by design.

Most games other then this one that deal with eastern front, the lines are converted so many hexs per turn per line.

This game because of the lacking logistical system has made 5 counters to convert rail lines. This has alrdy been nerfed down to 4 and 6, which means there will only be a few lines to the front areas by turn 12ish.Long lines with no way to defend then other then string out 10 divisions to defend 1 line.

The SHC player can drop 1 unit next to the 1941 start lines and the line will be cut for several turns as the RR unit will have to walk back to the cut.

Several players have pointed out to me this could be done more then 2+ turns in a row and cut off 1 AG for 3 or 4 turns and the RHC player could destory most of not all the units in that area because of a lack of supplies.

Is this historical for 1941? I hole AG wiped out because of a few air dropps?

Lets be honest allot of "exploits" have been removed from game or nerfed to reflex history. Mostly German, which is fine.

This really needs to be taken care of. The guys I talked to about it know they can do it but do not because its just plain stupid that its even possible. As you can simply drop one whenever your in trouble in 1941 and the german player is screwed for 2 turns min.

Pelton












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RE: Can we nerf this at some point next patch? - 2/17/2012 4:38:57 PM   
JAMiAM

 

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What makes this so devastating is that the forward FBDs cannot use rail movement to get back to the break. This is a problem, even with partisans.

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RE: Can we nerf this at some point next patch? - 2/17/2012 4:44:35 PM   
Flaviusx


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My own personal rule of thumb here is to not play any tricks with paras until blizzard. After that...





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RE: Can we nerf this at some point next patch? - 2/17/2012 4:51:30 PM   
JAMiAM

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

My own personal rule of thumb here is to not play any tricks with paras until blizzard. After that...


After that, it's like Lux Interior from the Cramps said, "You got your g-strings 'n' gin, and nylon hose, chicken pot pie, anything goes!"

Or, was it Cole Porter?

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RE: Can we nerf this at some point next patch? - 2/17/2012 4:53:03 PM   
Flaviusx


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Heh. Quick and dirty fix: maybe limit drop ranges more? These drops hundreds of miles behind the lines really are dubious.



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RE: Can we nerf this at some point next patch? - 2/17/2012 5:10:01 PM   
Q-Ball


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.....or have a house rule against this. I personally think it's gamey to take out the rail line with Paras. I have to agree with Pelton here.

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RE: Can we nerf this at some point next patch? - 2/17/2012 5:10:03 PM   
wdkruger

 

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I agree, a range limit would make sense to avoid suicidal air drops. Arnhem was about 67 miles behind the lines. I'd suggest a limit of 8 hexes behind lines and perhaps 3 from the sea would make sense. Not sure how easy this would be to code.

The inability of the FBD units to move "backwards" to the point of the break is a problem. Ideally FBD units should be allowed to use isolated railroads to get to the damage site. Again, this might be hard to code.


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RE: Can we nerf this at some point next patch? - 2/17/2012 5:19:59 PM   
Pelton

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Heh. Quick and dirty fix: maybe limit drop ranges more? These drops hundreds of miles behind the lines really are dubious.




hehhe yes it is kinda fully.

But exploses the logistic/rail system that wite is currently stuck with. I know witw and wite2 will not have is issue, but if I was thinking about buying this game. This one silly trick would make me say "you got to be kidding me. Thats the best they could do in 5 yrs of developement?"

Best fix would be no air drops until after March 1942. By then there are allot more lines to front and several north south lines linked up.

As it is the German player can't build anything, but russian player can so there needs to be some protection from exploits like this. I am sure if GHC players could build para's we have them dropping 500 miles from front on rail links. The south would be the best area.

Needless to say I be dropping this game. I had a breakthrough going in center and opps 3000 para's drop 300 miles from front stopping 300,000 men for 2 weeks. Now I have a huge hole in the south and again opps 3000 para's drop 7 hexes from 1941 start line stopping your 300,000 man AGS breakthrough for 3 turns.

Atleast the game exposed a weakness in the logistic and rail system that needs to be addressed so not a total waste of time.

Pelton



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15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
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RE: Can we nerf this at some point next patch? - 2/17/2012 5:24:51 PM   
Flaviusx


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Pelton, the Sovs dropped paras during the blizzard counteroffensive. These guys caused quite a ruckus behind AGC's lines, they joined up with Belov's cavalry in an ongoing pocket that lasted for months. But not hundreds of miles in the rear.

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RE: Can we nerf this at some point next patch? - 2/17/2012 5:30:50 PM   
elmo3

 

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The mostly unsuccessful Soviet drop in '43 was about 200km behind the lines IIRC. So that is about 125 miles or about a dozen hexes.

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RE: Can we nerf this at some point next patch? - 2/17/2012 5:50:26 PM   
Denniss

 

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Nobody is talking about the misuse of the current supply system by converting only one ot two lines eastwards per sector. So your opponent used a spoiled system with airdrops to crush yur spoiled supply system with just minor rail conversion.

I ususlly leave only one construction Bn per Corps/Army/Front HQ and move all other to OKH to get the rear area rail conversion done.

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RE: Can we nerf this at some point next patch? - 2/17/2012 5:57:17 PM   
Seminole


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It exposes people who fail to make interconnects in their rail net.

Here's some historical rail marks.
18 July 1941 - 1st DRG train arrives at Porkhov
23 August 1941 - 1st DRG train arrives at Luga
29 September 1941 - 1st DRG train arrives at Staraya Russa

How many weeks before that do you put rail in these locations? I'm genuinely curious.
How much faster are you able to build the rail than was historically accomplished? Should that be nerfed? Should historical accomplishment be the defining limiting factor in what is possible in this game? I would think not.

quote:

Best fix would be no air drops until after March 1942.


But the Soviets made air drops in the first winter:

quote:

During the Soviet counter-offensive for the Defense of Moscow at Vyazma, 27th January 1942, the Soviet 4th Airborne Corps began a series of night drops of paratroopers in the German rear. Forty civilian and twenty-two military aircraft, escorted by limited numbers of fighters and ground attack aviation, supported the landings. From the beginning, the operation did not go well.

After, six nights, only 2,100 men from the 10,000-man airborne corps had been dropped in. Because of bad weather and the pilots' inexperience with night navigation, most of these troops landed twenty kilometers south of the intended drop zone. Plans for five to six sorties each night did not take into account adverse weather conditions, aircraft failures, or combat losses. Also, the failure to conceal the buildup of troops at the airborne fields led to the closing of one of them by German bombers. The remaining two fields provided only two to three sorties per night.

The paratroops that landed, however, did succeed in interdicting lines of communication in the German rear area for almost three weeks, in part because of their linkup with the 1st Guards Cavalry Corps on 6 February.


I'm all for addressing the efficacy (randomness in ability to hit the target hex, etc), but I think pulling the ability is harsh, and not supported by the historical record.

If German players can make faster, deeper panzer pushes than the Germans did historically, why should Soviets be limited to no airborne operations when they actually conducted them (however poorly)? Isn't the point of the game for both sides to ultimately do better than historical?

If the Germans were putting more effort into building a rail net and less effort into pushing every inch west that the game engine allows, they would to a large degree mitigate this problem (and a more western rail head would allow the game to more effectively demonstrate front line supply issues late in Barbarossa campaign. You can also cover important rail junctions and prevent drops (and partisan damage). So really, this can be addressed with game play instead of nerfing.

You take the risk such a strategy entails you live (or die) with it, imo.

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RE: Can we nerf this at some point next patch? - 2/17/2012 5:58:50 PM   
Flaviusx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Denniss

Nobody is talking about the misuse of the current supply system by converting only one ot two lines eastwards per sector. So your opponent used a spoiled system with airdrops to crush yur spoiled supply system with just minor rail conversion.

I ususlly leave only one construction Bn per Corps/Army/Front HQ and move all other to OKH to get the rear area rail conversion done.


A fair point, and expert Axis players have definitely, shall we say, optimized rail conversion.

But for all of that making drops this far back is very sketchy and I for one can't defend it. It just didn't happen.

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RE: Can we nerf this at some point next patch? - 2/17/2012 6:06:29 PM   
Seminole


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At least the game exposed a weakness in YOUR logistic and rail system that needs to be addressed so not a total waste of time.

Why didn't you establish the rail net close to the European border? What did you do with those HQs and their FBD units? Are all the supplies for AGS really coming down a single track to the Ukraine?
Is that realistic, or 'gamey'?
Isn't that a risk you chose to push faster east with your rail heads? It cost you time and momentum, but you thought the risk was worth the reward, and this time it didn't pay.

I'm really curious how fast you establish railhead compared to the historical marks I noted by the Deutsche Reichsbahn Gesellschaft. I'm not calling for it to be nerfed, I'm just wondering how many weeks progress you're gaining with the risk you're taking.

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RE: Can we nerf this at some point next patch? - 2/17/2012 6:48:37 PM   
Q-Ball


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I try to build interconnecting rail as Axis, but there just isn't time, and there certainly isn't by T-15, which is the example Pelton posted.

A good HR is to limit drops to 10 or 12 hexes of the front line, or even shorter. Something more tactical, even if it cuts rail lines locally. I think that's OK.

But dropping that far back, I don't think is at all kosher.

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RE: Can we nerf this at some point next patch? - 2/17/2012 7:13:43 PM   
Pelton

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Seminole

It exposes people who fail to make interconnects in their rail net.

Here's some historical rail marks.
18 July 1941 - 1st DRG train arrives at Porkhov
23 August 1941 - 1st DRG train arrives at Luga
29 September 1941 - 1st DRG train arrives at Staraya Russa

How many weeks before that do you put rail in these locations? I'm genuinely curious.
How much faster are you able to build the rail than was historically accomplished? Should that be nerfed? Should historical accomplishment be the defining limiting factor in what is possible in this game? I would think not.

quote:

Best fix would be no air drops until after March 1942.


But the Soviets made air drops in the first winter:

quote:

During the Soviet counter-offensive for the Defense of Moscow at Vyazma, 27th January 1942, the Soviet 4th Airborne Corps began a series of night drops of paratroopers in the German rear. Forty civilian and twenty-two military aircraft, escorted by limited numbers of fighters and ground attack aviation, supported the landings. From the beginning, the operation did not go well.

After, six nights, only 2,100 men from the 10,000-man airborne corps had been dropped in. Because of bad weather and the pilots' inexperience with night navigation, most of these troops landed twenty kilometers south of the intended drop zone. Plans for five to six sorties each night did not take into account adverse weather conditions, aircraft failures, or combat losses. Also, the failure to conceal the buildup of troops at the airborne fields led to the closing of one of them by German bombers. The remaining two fields provided only two to three sorties per night.

The paratroops that landed, however, did succeed in interdicting lines of communication in the German rear area for almost three weeks, in part because of their linkup with the 1st Guards Cavalry Corps on 6 February.


I'm all for addressing the efficacy (randomness in ability to hit the target hex, etc), but I think pulling the ability is harsh, and not supported by the historical record.

If German players can make faster, deeper panzer pushes than the Germans did historically, why should Soviets be limited to no airborne operations when they actually conducted them (however poorly)? Isn't the point of the game for both sides to ultimately do better than historical?

If the Germans were putting more effort into building a rail net and less effort into pushing every inch west that the game engine allows, they would to a large degree mitigate this problem (and a more western rail head would allow the game to more effectively demonstrate front line supply issues late in Barbarossa campaign. You can also cover important rail junctions and prevent drops (and partisan damage). So really, this can be addressed with game play instead of nerfing.

You take the risk such a strategy entails you live (or die) with it, imo.


IF wite worked like other games and was historical, all the rail lines would be getting worked on from start line east.

But because of a weakness in the rail/logistic system they give the German player 5. Sure historically stuff was cut, but the HOLE German army did not recieve supplys from just 5 railheads.

As we all know this has been alrdy talked about to no end and is going to be addressed and fixed.

2by3 sees the problem and is fixing it and will have a better product for everyone to play at some time in the near future.

But until then we can't let one side exploit the current system that we play under.

HQ build ups were way over powered and were nerfed "fixed" to be more relistic and now even I hardly use them.

I have no weakness on my logictic's system

I can't double up, so I am doing the very same thing everyone esle is.

I have no problem with para drops, if I can build them also and drop them hehehehe.

If I had paras and used them like this we be hearing the normal cring I am getting Peltonized help me!!!!!!!!.

Its clearly an exploit of the logistic system, which I am sure 2by3 did not expect.

Flaviusx I am fine with the 10ish hex limit from front, that seems historical.

I am sure there were para drops way behind the lines, but historically there were not just 5 rail lines working there were many times that. So supplies were not cut off to 300,000 men for 2 weeks because of one broken rail line.

It is still a little gamey, because I can't build para units. I can wait for War in Europe to make my mass para drops 500 miles behind enemy lines cutting of 1 million russians for 2 weeks


Pelton

< Message edited by Pelton -- 2/17/2012 7:17:36 PM >


_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

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RE: Can we nerf this at some point next patch? - 2/17/2012 8:49:12 PM   
randallw

 

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What would happen, in real life, at such a drop attempt? More fighters showing up to intercept? Pilots unable to locate the proper hex?

To make a comparison to Western Allied para ops there was an attempt to drop a British battalion in Africa to support a 1942 operation, with the troops coming in from another continent. And yes it went balls up.

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RE: Can we nerf this at some point next patch? - 2/17/2012 8:55:06 PM   
Seminole


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quote:

IF wite worked like other games and was historical, all the rail lines would be getting worked on from start line east.


It can be, but it seems you're taking the HQs with subunit FBDs (that can fill in the critical interconnects) farther east too soon.
You didn't answer my question before, can you address this:

Here's some historical rail marks.
18 July 1941 - 1st DRG train arrives at Porkhov
23 August 1941 - 1st DRG train arrives at Luga
29 September 1941 - 1st DRG train arrives at Staraya Russa

How many weeks before that do you put rail in these locations? I'm genuinely curious.
How much faster are you able to build the rail than was historically accomplished?

quote:

I have no weakness on my logictic's system


It appears (the picture you provide is incomplete) that you're feeding the whole of AGS on one line.
You don't see that as a weakness?
You've created a long 'single point of failure' through Vinnitsa. Why is there no rail line through Tarnopol and Proskurov? Because you decided it was more important to build a rail line past Kharkov a month faster than the Germans got their first tanks that far east than create redundancy in your rail network. This allows you push supplies farther east than the Germans historically could, but not without risk from severe lack of redundancy.

quote:

I have no problem with para drops, if I can build them also and drop them hehehehe.


Is 7th Flieger Div and the Air Landing Division not airborne capable in the game?

quote:

I am sure there were para drops way behind the lines, but historically there were not just 5 rail lines working there were many times that.


Actually, the Russian rail network was quite primitive:

quote:

One of the first actions taken by the German Transportation Division to prepare itself for the upcoming war with the Soviet Union was to complete a preliminary analysis of the Soviet rail network. This effort highlighted the following - only four major east-west running trunk lines connected the western border regions of the Soviet Union (including the recently annexed regions of Poland and the Baltic States of Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania) with Soviet rear areas:

Niemen river to Leningrad (double track)
Bug river to Orsha to Moscow (double track)
Bug river to Kremenchug to the Donets basin (double track)
San river to Odessa (double track)

The four above named trunk-lines were intersected by only six major north-south running trunk lines:

Koeningsberg to Kremenchug (double track)
Riga to Orsha to Kharkov to the Donets basin (double track)
Odessa to Orsha to Leningrad (double track)
Sevastopol to Kharkov to Moscow to Archanglesk (double track)
Leningrad to Moscow to the Donets to the Caucasus (double track)
Leningrad to Moscow to the Caucasus (double track)

...

This rather sparse network was fed by numerous smaller, single track, feeder lines whose transport capacities were far from optimal. In fact, the majority of the Soviet rail line network was the same as it had been for the Czars armies 20 years earlier. In some regions of the Soviet Union, single track rail lines existed for no apparent reason.



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RE: Can we nerf this at some point next patch? - 2/17/2012 9:00:43 PM   
Aurelian

 

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Axis don't have paradop capability. Thank the Crete assualt for souring Hitler on it.

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RE: Can we nerf this at some point next patch? - 2/17/2012 9:02:05 PM   
Seminole


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quote:

What would happen, in real life, at such a drop attempt? More fighters showing up to intercept? Pilots unable to locate the proper hex?


I think that's the main way to address this. The farther you drop from the front lines, the more random the final drop zone.

I think the Li-2 has the range to drop paras 18 hexes from the airbase. Not sure about the TB-3-G2 or C-47.

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RE: Can we nerf this at some point next patch? - 2/17/2012 9:02:23 PM   
Flaviusx


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Interestingly Kanev did the same for Stalin. He never really believed in them after that. This might have indirectly spared Japan from a joint Soviet-American occupation.



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RE: Can we nerf this at some point next patch? - 2/17/2012 9:21:23 PM   
Seminole


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quote:

This might have indirectly spared Japan from a joint Soviet-American occupation.


Well, that and a nuclear bomb.
Didn't the soviets use paras against the Japanese in Manchuria?

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RE: Can we nerf this at some point next patch? - 2/17/2012 11:13:33 PM   
Michael T


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IMO: No Soviet para ops prior to blizzard. Easy and historical. Then impose a range limit.

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RE: Can we nerf this at some point next patch? - 2/18/2012 1:46:00 AM   
AFV


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I find it ridiculous as hell anyone would defend a Soviet para drop 500 miles in.
Its really irrelevant of what the German player did or didn't do with his rail line.

I am marking this- its actually quite funny. Someone does something totally gamey and not only does someone else defend it but also attacks Pelton's game?

Really? OMG LMAO.


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RE: Can we nerf this at some point next patch? - 2/18/2012 3:51:23 AM   
Seminole


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quote:

I find it ridiculous as hell anyone would defend a Soviet para drop 500 miles in.


No one has defended a 'para drop 500 miles in'.
But I don't support removing from the game the types of drops that actually happened.

quote:

Its really irrelevant of what the German player did or didn't do with his rail line.


Actually, it's not. Had there been any redundancy, the move would have been moot and not occurred. Pelton eschewed redundancy for distance. Why should that have no risk?

Here's a look at my PBEM opponents southern rail net on turn 15. Note how he doesn't lack the rear area interconnects that Pelton needs.
I think all of those are performed by the subunit FBDs. Why doesn't Pelton have them? Is he keeping his HHQs too close to the front (perhaps to garner the command range modifier advantage conferred?)?



I believe the devs should create a degree of randomness based on the distance for para drops, as navigation was nowhere near as precise as the current setup permits. At long distances the troops would be more likely to land in any hex but the one they targeted.

The airborne can't be moved once dropped, so this would neatly solve the issue he encountered, and he can keep up his rail building without nearly as high a risk (just partisans).

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RE: Can we nerf this at some point next patch? - 2/18/2012 7:05:26 AM   
bevans

 

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Anyone who believes that the Germans can build redundant lines deep in the USSR by turn 15 has clearly never played the Axis side. Sure, every hex in Courland will be fed by 4 or 5 rail lines - at least that is where all my HQs seem to think the highest priority is for sending their attached units. You have your precious FBDs and that is all, so your choices are basically, don't bother to move from the start line or drive as deep and fast as you can in thrusts predicated by the few the rail lines that your FBDs can drive east. Arguably the first choice would have been better historically but it does make for a dull game. Yes, I use my AGN FBD to get within range of Leningrad, then start driving it SE to build the first cross line - but it is still a long ways north on T15.

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RE: Can we nerf this at some point next patch? - 2/18/2012 7:39:13 AM   
Aurelian

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T

IMO: No Soviet para ops prior to blizzard. Easy and historical. Then impose a range limit.


And how is a range limit historical.

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RE: Can we nerf this at some point next patch? - 2/18/2012 7:47:41 AM   
Tarhunnas


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T

IMO: No Soviet para ops prior to blizzard. Easy and historical. Then impose a range limit.


I agree completely on a range limit, for all drops, not only Soviet ones. Suicicdal paradrops were not made.

However, I do not agree on a blizzard limit. The Soviets did naval landings in early autumn 1941, so why not airdrops? In a realistic game, German air superiority should prevent Soviet dops, not weather or time.

I also think there should be a chance of the drop being unsuccessful, and the unit simply evaporating. That happened for example with the allied airdrops in Sicily, which just dispersed paratroopers all over the island that had negligible effect on the fighting. Or a chance of the unit ending up in an adjacent hex. That should prevent too gamey rail-cutting drops.

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RE: Can we nerf this at some point next patch? - 2/18/2012 7:53:13 AM   
Seminole


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quote:

Anyone who believes that the Germans can build redundant lines deep in the USSR by turn 15 has clearly never played the Axis side.


Was Pelton's line cut deep in Russia? The single point of failure existed as far back as 50 miles from the Rumanian border as far as I can tell. Had it been cut deep in Russia the effect wouldn't have been nearly as severe.

I haven't played through the Axis campaign, so maybe someone can enlighten me. Is it typical to support AGS on a single rail line? What did he do with FBD 1 since he didn't build the line through Rovno or Proskurov?

quote:

You have your precious FBDs and that is all, so your choices are basically, don't bother to move from the start line or drive as deep and fast as you can in thrusts predicated by the few the rail lines that your FBDs can drive east.


You're right. There must be no middle ground between plunges eastward well beyond the historical achievement without regard for establishing any north-south interconnects for redundancy and no advance whatsoever.

quote:

Sure, every hex in Courland will be fed by 4 or 5 rail lines - at least that is where all my HQs seem to think the highest priority is for sending their attached units.


Does it not work as the manual indicates?

quote:

For human players only, there is a limit to the distance that the automated rail repair units will operate from the HQ unit that they are attached, which is based on command range (7.6.4). For example, if a construction battalion is assigned to a Corps HQ unit, it can only repair rail line hexes up to 5 hexes from that HQ, but the same construction battalion attached to a High Command HQ unit (e.g. OKH or STAVKA) could operate up to 90 hexes away.


Wouldn't placing a Corps HQ, with the appropriate construction SUs, at the sites you want interconnected result in the AI performing this function during the logistics phase (and restricting them from going to Courland)? Sounds like you're leaving them in the Army Group, which while useful for repairing partisan damage, isn't necessary early on and results in leaving that element of rail construction up to the AI. [edited to add: from your description is sounds like the AI prioritizes rail repair of the construction SU it controls from West to East, so assign them to lower HQs with that in mind and see what your results are)

I'd like to hear what Pelton did with his construction SUs, and FBD 1. Hopefully he didn't disband them for manpower or something on turn 1.
A picture of his entire rail net at this phase would be interesting.

< Message edited by Seminole -- 2/18/2012 7:56:20 AM >

(in reply to bevans)
Post #: 29
RE: Can we nerf this at some point next patch? - 2/18/2012 10:51:57 AM   
Savanniperkele


Posts: 64
Joined: 7/6/2005
Status: offline
How to counter Pelton in the late summer 1941,

As this is a game I play against Pelton and used the operation in question. Which by the way first time used was labelled by Pelton "a good move" I feel like contributing here. Perhaps this thread should have had started by me with a topic "How to counter Pelton in the late summer 1941". As the tone of the discussion could have been a bit different. And bear in mind this tactics would not work or would be hideously expensive in para units (which SU cannot build by the way) against average Axis player with more careful approach in throwing weight to east as well for the reasons explained here.

I have played game quite a lot (not comparable to Pelton for sure) but I have experienced with the panzer-hq buildup a bit and feel that with excessive use it is unrealistic and unhistorical. Before we started I asked for a house rule to prevent technique of supply chaining which Pelton refused. This is one reason I feel that this game should be played as it is and to be able to use its mechanisms in full to test where the engine goes. Pelton has shown me and all of us how the Panzer puncture in its most massive form could be achieved even in winter and he has turned penetrations into very deep strategic movements very very far to rear. Combined with "maximized" rail building this has become a devastating tactic that has forced most Peltons opponents loose their fortified positions and great cities without a fight. Some times Pelton can even surround a front or three with these strategically devious thrusts where all or most of German mobile forces plunge behind using singular railroad for staging area and to feed multiple hq-buildups. As i started a game with Pelton, I was sure that this would face me as well. Form then I studied a bit of tactics and strategical goals of Pelton (in game he would represent OKH with similiar history in Poland and France) and decided that he's rather rigid thinking could be challenged (everyone must have noticed geometrically beautiful defense lines etc.).

Pelton's AAR with my infringements can be found here: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3009329

The key in defence would be mobility and offering Pelton paths of advance to go. One such a path Pelton found in flat center and reported in the AAR. Only thing he forgot is the entrance to this "weak center in soviet lines" was fueled only with one railroad starting unconventionally (but efficient for Peltonizing, we all admit) from Rumania. AGS, half of AGC and most of the panzer forces of German army was thus supplied trough the very busy Romanias railroad net. One could ask how historical and realistic this was and should not one fight such a exploitation of the game engine with a larger partisan operation capable to turn such an exploitation into a disaster and to show the community that Germany truly needs to build few lines into east and maybe wait a bit for the supply network to catch up and to avoid the winning disease - the same disease which quite historically led German army too far from her supply?

The first "breaktrough" he refers to here was genuinely not a breaktrough as it was about to be plunged against the main lines of strong defenses in forests behind Smolensk and was not already trough as only the screening forces was touched. The risk of it turning a breaktrough was a possibility later on as Pelton was simultaneously launching atacks against the Valdai hills to threaten Moscow. So the first partisan operation was implemented and the AGC rail was severed near Viluns. The operation was praised by Pelton afterwards as he mentioned that it was first time he saw that. Few of the reasons it was done to was to counter the unhistorically fast pace of building railroad in center, because of Pelton gathering his panzers for buildup as far as I knew and because there was only three lines of rails build at all (AGN, AGC & AGS)- and i suspect that atleast the central line was build by two FDB's (wasn't there a post from Pelton reporting the devs that by doubling you could even build 7 hexes of railroad at once still after the railroad doubling was supposed to be fixed). The first para operation was put to effect and Pelton was approached with a message in which I told this was a practice operation (as in serious use I should delayed it until the panzers were committed and could not cancel and change their axis without being left supply cut behind the lines). I asked too what has Pelton done to he's small railroad units as those should have been already busy with the network building and were not! This would bring partisan trouble in the winter for sure. OKH was warned not to overextend.

I have not used this 'Partisan drop en masse' against anyone else, who stick to the 5 fdb's building rail-lines to east and who have the rest of Railroad troops connecting these lines into networks in the rear. If there was a railroad network in Ukraine the number of partisans in form of paratroop brigades might have exceeded the number of transport aircraft squadrons capable of transporting those! So be careful if you think that this tactics would be as effective against against average railroad networks if those were build by German player. Paradropping far to rear is very exhausting to the transport squadrons and both operations have eaten the squadrons dry and it takes more than month for those to recuperate (last operation left all three squadrons empty of working planes - so you know there wont be another drop very soon). The main point being that the German supply head would not be unhistorically east if the supply network was honed and not having 2/5 Eastern armies and most of panzers their lifeline hanging only from one thread trough Rumania.

So Pelton saw the gap in the center aranged for him. But he forgot what the Stavka partisans could do to hes very vulnerable single lines. As the counterfinal arguments go I have only to answer that there might have not been such a lucrative looking gap in the soviet defences if Stavka thought the partisans could not help to defend the gap arranged for the eyes of Peltonizer. In other world the situation might have been different and the breaktrough more hard to achieve in there and perhaps there was a retreat in the area as well - so no cries claimed by pelton would not have happened. You must see that this the concentrated partisan operation has been in the mind of Stavka for quite a while. So in here our ears face cries only from the Peltonizer.

I feel that this tactics can be seen as counter tactics and to pretty unhistorical things the engine allows Pelton who needs those to go Peltonizing in late summer 1941. These things being railroad rushing and hq-buildups for entire panzerarmies form singular railhead stretching all the way trough Romania. Honored Devs already have been toning these two things down with more or less success thanks to Pelton showing us how these could be exploited. On the other hand there just might have been an antidote already in the game - which just wasn't used, perhaps for the tenderness of heart, or other reasons against an opponent who quite frankly will use all the possibilities he finds from the engine to hes advantage.

Sorry Pelton, perhaps you now must consider of having a railroad network by summer 1942? I think that most of the counterattacks Southern Fronts wont kill many of your troops here and certainly not wipe whole AG's. And by the way I would be honored to have the game fixed because my actions as Pelton is and will be more honored in this respect. Perhaps these few points of the restrictions there already is on the transport capacities of early soviet airforce is and on the need for German player not to fully maximise or exploit the FDB's (and the other rr units) in a single minded fashion without a look to the sides of supply network. Perhaps these points could be considered as well in how to make the game better in representing actual historical possibilities.

And thank you devs who keep up the good work with this wonderful game!



quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton

Before it becomes the flavor of the month?

It for one seems totally nonhistorical and is exploiting the rail conversion system by design.

Most games other then this one that deal with eastern front, the lines are converted so many hexs per turn per line.

This game because of the lacking logistical system has made 5 counters to convert rail lines. This has alrdy been nerfed down to 4 and 6, which means there will only be a few lines to the front areas by turn 12ish.Long lines with no way to defend then other then string out 10 divisions to defend 1 line.

The SHC player can drop 1 unit next to the 1941 start lines and the line will be cut for several turns as the RR unit will have to walk back to the cut.

Several players have pointed out to me this could be done more then 2+ turns in a row and cut off 1 AG for 3 or 4 turns and the RHC player could destory most of not all the units in that area because of a lack of supplies.

Is this historical for 1941? I hole AG wiped out because of a few air dropps?

Lets be honest allot of "exploits" have been removed from game or nerfed to reflex history. Mostly German, which is fine.

This really needs to be taken care of. The guys I talked to about it know they can do it but do not because its just plain stupid that its even possible. As you can simply drop one whenever your in trouble in 1941 and the german player is screwed for 2 turns min.

Pelton













< Message edited by Savanniperkele -- 2/18/2012 1:36:02 PM >

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 30
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