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RE: Geronimo!!!!!

 
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RE: Geronimo!!!!! - 2/19/2012 3:20:02 AM   
Marquo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Seminole

quote:

So I can move an entire mech corps into a hex, and it flips to pending my control, but if i drop a measly para brigade there, it suddenly flips to my control?
What is wrong with this picture?


Do I need to explain to you how it was easier for the 82nd and 101st airborne to seize control of territory more rapidly that XXX Corps advancing in a linear fashion from the front line?
Is that what you're asking?

I'm still curious about the 'single para brigade to enable a single tank brigade to advance behind an entire Armee Groupe'. Can you clarify that? Or was it just ludicrous exaggeration?



Like JAIMaiM explained; immediately converting the hex during one's turn is different than having it convert during the interphase.

(in reply to Seminole)
Post #: 31
RE: Geronimo!!!!! - 2/19/2012 6:15:15 AM   
AFV


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Seminole:

I would assume paratroops can get there faster since they are flown in and don't walk or drive in. I guess you do need to explain to me why a mech corps with 90,000 men and assorted vehicles does not immediately convert a hex in game like a para brigade, with a couple thousand men. I don't see how they can control the space more effectively than a unit 50 times larger does. I have to wonder if that was the intent of the devs.

(in reply to Marquo)
Post #: 32
RE: Geronimo!!!!! - 2/19/2012 1:10:48 PM   
Seminole


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quote:

I would assume paratroops can get there faster since they are flown in and don't walk or drive in. I guess you do need to explain to me why a mech corps with 90,000 men and assorted vehicles does not immediately convert a hex in game like a para brigade, with a couple thousand men. I don't see how they can control the space more effectively than a unit 50 times larger does. I have to wonder if that was the intent of the devs.


It's not a matter of 'control space more effectively', but it is a matter of movement costs.

XXX Corps rolling over roads and bridges controlled by paras doesn't have the same considerations as they would moving through enemy controlled territory. That 'cost' is borne by the airborne (in lost men, readiness, and airframes).

Consider, in games terms, the motorized cost of Operation Garden without Operation Market:

Minor River hexside (No EZOC) +2
Minor River hexside (EZOC) +6
Major River hexside (No EZOC) +4
Major River hexside (EZOC) +18

Several rivers, 10 to 20 miles apart, that in game terms XXX Corps could never traverse in one week unless friendly controlled. Immediate conversion can represent factors like seizing bridges before they are blown, reduced need for scouting and recon, and similar factors that explain the higher cost of moving into enemy territory. In point of fact, the operation failed where the paras failed to seize bridges.

(in reply to AFV)
Post #: 33
RE: Geronimo!!!!! - 2/19/2012 1:56:51 PM   
AFV


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I guess I kinda see your point but just don't agree.
Lets say there is a gap in the enemy line. I move a stack of  2 Mech Corps thru it- nearly 200,000 men plus vehicles. All I get is the hexes converted to pending.
Then I drop a para on it, and viola, its friendly. I guess in game terms, the para unit could be considered to have gotten there first (regardless of the order I moved the units), since they flew and were dropped in- and because of that had more time to "make the hex friendly" but it still does not seem right to me.

(in reply to Seminole)
Post #: 34
RE: Geronimo!!!!! - 2/19/2012 2:11:14 PM   
Marquo


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I agree with AFV; what is the difference between air dropping a para brigade into a hex as opposed to having an inf bridgade walk into the hex prior to a larger force entering the hex? In either case the hex was "controlled" by a brigde first.

Marquo

(in reply to AFV)
Post #: 35
RE: Geronimo!!!!! - 2/19/2012 2:39:46 PM   
Marquo


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Here is the quote from the manual:

"Any air base unit can be used as a staging base. Note that since only regimental or brigade sized airborne combat units can be air dropped, air dropped units will only convert the hex they drop in from enemy controlled to a pending friendly hex (6.3)"

So, if the hexes are immediately becoming friendly, than it is not WAD.

Marquo

(in reply to Marquo)
Post #: 36
RE: Geronimo!!!!! - 2/19/2012 7:59:39 PM   
Seminole


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quote:

Lets say there is a gap in the enemy line. I move a stack of 2 Mech Corps thru it- nearly 200,000 men plus vehicles. All I get is the hexes converted to pending.


EZOC represents that the gap isn't really a vacuum. The hex delineation is notional. That's why a mech corps can convert empty hexes on either side of it (that are not in EZOC), but a smaller unit doesn't.

(in reply to Marquo)
Post #: 37
RE: Geronimo!!!!! - 2/19/2012 8:42:34 PM   
AFV


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Good find Marquo. We find common ground, I'm not sure whether to laugh or cry :)

(in reply to Seminole)
Post #: 38
RE: Geronimo!!!!! - 2/19/2012 8:54:53 PM   
Marquo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Seminole

quote:

Lets say there is a gap in the enemy line. I move a stack of 2 Mech Corps thru it- nearly 200,000 men plus vehicles. All I get is the hexes converted to pending.


EZOC represents that the gap isn't really a vacuum. The hex delineation is notional. That's why a mech corps can convert empty hexes on either side of it (that are not in EZOC), but a smaller unit doesn't.


Not to nit pick, but divisions also convert the 6 hexes adjacent; brigades do not; the conversion occurs during the interphase (pending).

(in reply to Seminole)
Post #: 39
RE: Geronimo!!!!! - 2/19/2012 8:55:23 PM   
Marquo


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Common ground = Truth

(in reply to Marquo)
Post #: 40
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