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Geronimo!!!!! - 2/16/2012 9:57:25 PM   
Seminole


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Wanted to kick off a thread to discuss the use and utility of airborne.

I just made some para drops in my game (flubbed one with an errant mouse click and ended up 10 miles off the intended drop site - I blame the drunk pilots!)

I noticed something very cool, unintended or not.

I pushed the enemy out of Cherkassy (Italians, they didn't really want to be there anyway) with an attack across the frozen Dnepr. However, none of the units that made the attack had sufficient MP to move into the city that was pending Soviet control.

I decided to drop in a brigade of paras to discourage the Italians from returning, and discovered that a para drop immediately converts the control of the hex to Soviet. This means reduced MP cost allowing me to move in a supporting unit that had participated in the previous attack. Very cool.

Para drops are hell on the transports though, so don't think you're going to get to spam these even though you get a load of airborne after the blizzard starts.
Post #: 1
RE: Geronimo!!!!! - 2/16/2012 10:01:15 PM   
Flaviusx


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Oh this is very nice find.

I have An Idea that I've been wanting to try out with paras for the blizzard, and this makes that idea even more attractive.

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RE: Geronimo!!!!! - 2/16/2012 10:19:32 PM   
JAMiAM

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Oh this is very nice find.

I have An Idea that I've been wanting to try out with paras for the blizzard, and this makes that idea even more attractive.

Oh great...I see a gamey exploit of dropping a line of paras along an attack axis, then running a Shock-Cavalry army through the freshly converted hexes.

I hope this gets fixed before it gets massively abused.

(in reply to Flaviusx)
Post #: 3
RE: Geronimo!!!!! - 2/17/2012 12:42:09 AM   
Farfarer

 

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Did it to Ploesti and Odessa - never thought of using it to get across those rivers. There is a chapter in Sajer ( I know I know) describing exactly how the Reds tried to do this for crossing the Dnepr. Not ahistorical, other than the MP usage which may or may not be right. I figure if you are going to burn up the paras, might as well get something for it. It may also cause them to be saved fo paratroop duties, rather than a way to exceed the Guards limit.

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RE: Geronimo!!!!! - 2/17/2012 1:11:51 AM   
Seminole


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quote:

Oh great...I see a gamey exploit of dropping a line of paras along an attack axis, then running a Shock-Cavalry army through the freshly converted hexes.
I hope this gets fixed before it gets massively abused.


What you're saying is that Operation Market Garden was a gamey exploit.
After all, Monty sought to overcome the extra MP cost of bridging multiple rivers in a single week that were under enemy ZOC. His problem was that recon didn't pick up 9th SS and 10th SS Panzer Div on refit several hexes behind the line in a city.

I'll see what my transport regiments look like next week, but in both cases all the aircraft used for the lift were listed as damaged, so I'm betting they'll take several weeks to get back to decent strength (I may just send them to the NR), and I only have 5 of them (it appears that only the Li-2 can be used, I'll have to double check if TB-3 can handle transport (it should), but I think the game might restrict to certain air frames.

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RE: Geronimo!!!!! - 2/17/2012 2:53:14 AM   
Flaviusx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JAMiAM


quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Oh this is very nice find.

I have An Idea that I've been wanting to try out with paras for the blizzard, and this makes that idea even more attractive.

Oh great...I see a gamey exploit of dropping a line of paras along an attack axis, then running a Shock-Cavalry army through the freshly converted hexes.

I hope this gets fixed before it gets massively abused.



Something like that, yes. Anyways, easiest way to fix it is to treat the hexes as having been flipped over for control purposes.

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Post #: 6
RE: Geronimo!!!!! - 2/17/2012 3:14:01 AM   
Flaviusx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Seminole

What you're saying is that Operation Market Garden was a gamey exploit.
After all, Monty sought to overcome the extra MP cost of bridging multiple rivers in a single week that were under enemy ZOC. His problem was that recon didn't pick up 9th SS and 10th SS Panzer Div on refit several hexes behind the line in a city.

I'll see what my transport regiments look like next week, but in both cases all the aircraft used for the lift were listed as damaged, so I'm betting they'll take several weeks to get back to decent strength (I may just send them to the NR), and I only have 5 of them (it appears that only the Li-2 can be used, I'll have to double check if TB-3 can handle transport (it should), but I think the game might restrict to certain air frames.


It's cheese, let's not kid ourselves about it. But I'd love to get the chance to try the cheese once, just as a proof of concept sort of thing.


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RE: Geronimo!!!!! - 2/17/2012 3:45:28 AM   
Aurelian

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Seminole

quote:

Oh great...I see a gamey exploit of dropping a line of paras along an attack axis, then running a Shock-Cavalry army through the freshly converted hexes.
I hope this gets fixed before it gets massively abused.


What you're saying is that Operation Market Garden was a gamey exploit.
After all, Monty sought to overcome the extra MP cost of bridging multiple rivers in a single week that were under enemy ZOC. His problem was that recon didn't pick up 9th SS and 10th SS Panzer Div on refit several hexes behind the line in a city.

I'll see what my transport regiments look like next week, but in both cases all the aircraft used for the lift were listed as damaged, so I'm betting they'll take several weeks to get back to decent strength (I may just send them to the NR), and I only have 5 of them (it appears that only the Li-2 can be used, I'll have to double check if TB-3 can handle transport (it should), but I think the game might restrict to certain air frames.


The base TB-3 can't, the TB-3-G2 is the one. (They're out of production, though you do have 45 or so IIRC.)

< Message edited by Aurelian -- 2/17/2012 3:46:59 AM >

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RE: Geronimo!!!!! - 2/17/2012 4:28:02 AM   
Seminole


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quote:

It's cheese, let's not kid ourselves about it.


The devs know whether they did it on purpose or not, so I'm sure it will be addressed if simply overlooked previously.

I see the reason for it, it literally allows an Operation Market to be tried. If paras indeed control the territory (you can't land in the middle of an enemy unit) then the extra MP costs associated with entering enemy controlled territory (scouting, security, etc.) should be moot, imo.

It doesn't appear to me to be the type of thing that lends itself to abuse (burns up the planes, and you don't have many groups to do this, so it's not like granting the ability to perform another 500 mile plunge that HQ build up allows). You'll still have EZOC costs imposed for what you propose, and while I haven't run the math, I doubt you're getting far if the German has a proper defense established with a line and armor/motorized in reserve behind it.

Be interesting to see how people utilize it.

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RE: Geronimo!!!!! - 2/17/2012 4:50:25 AM   
JAMiAM

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx


quote:

ORIGINAL: Seminole

What you're saying is that Operation Market Garden was a gamey exploit.
After all, Monty sought to overcome the extra MP cost of bridging multiple rivers in a single week that were under enemy ZOC. His problem was that recon didn't pick up 9th SS and 10th SS Panzer Div on refit several hexes behind the line in a city.

I'll see what my transport regiments look like next week, but in both cases all the aircraft used for the lift were listed as damaged, so I'm betting they'll take several weeks to get back to decent strength (I may just send them to the NR), and I only have 5 of them (it appears that only the Li-2 can be used, I'll have to double check if TB-3 can handle transport (it should), but I think the game might restrict to certain air frames.


It's cheese, let's not kid ourselves about it. But I'd love to get the chance to try the cheese once, just as a proof of concept sort of thing.


Indeed. Even worse than a Shock-Cavalry army would be a hybrid Mtn Infantry-Tank Brigade Shock army, backed by a Cavalry Shock Army or two.. Throw in a couple of Combined Arms Rifle Division based armies for creating the hole, and you have the means to do a single turn 10-15 hex deep penetration.

Imagine, a three hex drop behind a section of the front, assaulting the front lines with Rifle Divisions, and popping a three hex wide gap in the lines, then you drop a string of Paras along the axis you wish to advance along. Then, you race through the second Combined Arms army to widen the base to 5-7 hexes and a couple deep. Then you send in the Cavalry Army(ies) to widen the penetration, and/or fan out behind. Then you send in the Mountain Divisions and Tank Brigades to create a huge mushroom cloud of death and destruction throughout the Axis rear. With decent initiative/admin rolls, the Mountain units could get 16 MPs, and with rivers frozen they could theoretically convert a swath of territory at least 3-5 hexes wide well over a dozen hexes deep. The Tank Brigades, as well, moving through the freely converted hexes, are going to be able to pretty much keep up and fill in the gaps.

I'll bring the cheese, and you bring the whine...

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RE: Geronimo!!!!! - 2/17/2012 5:39:32 AM   
Seminole


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quote:

Imagine, a three hex drop behind a section of the front, assaulting the front lines with Rifle Divisions, and popping a three hex wide gap in the lines, then you drop a string of Paras along the axis you wish to advance along.


No reason it can't be wargamed with the editor, but I think you're overestimating the number of Russian transports available. I think there are 5 regiments total (at least where I'm at in Dec '41)
Your theory also relies on an Axis defense with no depth, which shouldn't be happening anyway, and should be punished if it is.

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Post #: 11
RE: Geronimo!!!!! - 2/17/2012 5:50:44 AM   
Flaviusx


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Lift will indeed be the limiting factor here, along with aborts caused by the weather, but even so, I think you could really wreck the Axis with this.

Bottom line is that this little wrinkle bypasses the entire turn based determination of control, and that surely can't be intended.

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RE: Geronimo!!!!! - 2/17/2012 6:27:14 AM   
Seminole


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quote:

Bottom line is that this little wrinkle bypasses the entire turn based determination of control, and that surely can't be intended.


Such a change would make impossible something like Operation Market Garden if the game engine gets used for the West Front.

What was the point of dropping paras on the bridges if not to expedite allied control of the terrain in question to speed up passage by the forces in Operation Garden? In short, to obviate the additional costs of fighting through choke points that the additional costs are coded to represent.

The reason the original operation failed at the last step was they didn't know that the final bridge was actually 'defended' by two (albeit mauled) SS Pzr Div.

Step-stoning paras into enemy hexes won't obviate EZOC costs (and relies on those hexes being completely empty), it will simply lower the costs of moving into territory at the price of the paras combat effectiveness, and the remaining utility of the squadrons dedicated to making the lift.

I think JAMiAM's concerns are more paranoid fantasy than consideration of all factors involved. But I would like to see what people can accomplish. Paras should be more than just throw-away units used to clip rail lines.

If the Axis have the MLR supported by Pzr Div and Mot Rgt in reserve, you're not going to lay a red carpet of paras. But if they're digging a razor straight line across Russia that is one stack deep, well, I think that's part of the reason vertical envelopment was invented...

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RE: Geronimo!!!!! - 2/17/2012 7:00:08 AM   
JAMiAM

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Seminole

I think JAMiAM's concerns are more paranoid fantasy than consideration of all factors involved. But I would like to see what people can accomplish. Paras should be more than just throw-away units used to clip rail lines.

Personally, I wouldn't waste them clipping rail lines. I would use them to block retreat routes, and to prevent local reserves from being able to commit due to MP and adjacency restrictions. That is, a tactical/operational usage that will increase their chance of living to fight (and create grief) another day.

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RE: Geronimo!!!!! - 2/17/2012 7:14:58 AM   
Aurelian

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JAMiAM


quote:

ORIGINAL: Seminole

I think JAMiAM's concerns are more paranoid fantasy than consideration of all factors involved. But I would like to see what people can accomplish. Paras should be more than just throw-away units used to clip rail lines.

Personally, I wouldn't waste them clipping rail lines. I would use them to block retreat routes, and to prevent local reserves from being able to commit due to MP and adjacency restrictions. That is, a tactical/operational usage that will increase their chance of living to fight (and create grief) another day.



That's what I'm thinking. A little late for my 41-42 offensive though.

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RE: Geronimo!!!!! - 2/17/2012 7:28:10 AM   
Seminole


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quote:

Personally, I wouldn't waste them clipping rail lines.


Depends on how your opponent constructs (or rather fails to construct) his rail net.

quote:

I would use them to block retreat routes, and to prevent local reserves from being able to commit due to MP and adjacency restrictions. That is, a tactical/operational usage that will increase their chance of living to fight (and create grief) another day.


I agree, but you have to plan these things out as well. Getting things in position, etc. They're so weak after being dropped that you better get to them fast or they're gone.
Part of the problems the Allies had in the west in using their paras after Normandy was the pace of ground operations kept overrunning their planned drop zones.

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RE: Geronimo!!!!! - 2/17/2012 7:33:32 AM   
Flaviusx


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The way I'm thinking about doing this, even if just a single unit was successfully dropped, it could really speed things along. (It's an idea I've been working on to deal with Axis blizzard runaways.) It's something I already had in mind, but getting a Soviet controlled hex in the bargain makes it even more effective. And if I can do one such drop each turn, so much the better. So you really do not need mass para insertions to cause havoc. Just a few. And no, not on on rail lines, it's a tactical use.

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RE: Geronimo!!!!! - 2/17/2012 2:59:10 PM   
Marquo


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Ridiculous. Here is the introduction to WITE from the manual, "As the Axis or Soviet player, you take the role of the military High Command to use the forces available to you to execute the conflict at the strategic and operational levels of war." The tactical use of parachute brigades to engineer such a breech in the Axis lines in ridiculous. This concept takes place along with the opening Riga Gambit and the massive Soviet amphibious assaults into Roumania seen in earlier versions.

IIRC the use of paras to secure the Dnepr bridges did not work out so well...

Marquo

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RE: Geronimo!!!!! - 2/17/2012 4:05:50 PM   
Pelton

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JAMiAM


quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Oh this is very nice find.

I have An Idea that I've been wanting to try out with paras for the blizzard, and this makes that idea even more attractive.

Oh great...I see a gamey exploit of dropping a line of paras along an attack axis, then running a Shock-Cavalry army through the freshly converted hexes.

I hope this gets fixed before it gets massively abused.


This exploit is much much better.

The russian player has a brain fart, but he can simply drop a unit on one of the 4 rail lines you have and your offensive is stopped cold for a turn and he fixes his lines.Of course he magicly knows which line. Hes being nice and only doing it once, but if he wanted he could do it 3 or 4 turns in a row and simply kill off every unit in AGS. I kill the unit in one turn, but your rail unit has to march back to cut line.

This really needs to be nerfed as it will become a standard exploit that has zero historical basic.

The german player simply can't keep his 4 rail units in back as they have been nerfed to the lower number the last patch.

Pelton




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Pelton -- 2/17/2012 4:06:24 PM >


_____________________________

GHC
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15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

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RE: Geronimo!!!!! - 2/17/2012 5:31:27 PM   
Seminole


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quote:

Ridiculous. Here is the introduction to WITE from the manual, "As the Axis or Soviet player, you take the role of the military High Command to use the forces available to you to execute the conflict at the strategic and operational levels of war." The tactical use of parachute brigades to engineer such a breech in the Axis lines in ridiculous. This concept takes place along with the opening Riga Gambit and the massive Soviet amphibious assaults into Roumania seen in earlier versions.
IIRC the use of paras to secure the Dnepr bridges did not work out so well...


Sorry, you're just wrong here.
Operation Market-Garden was a strategic level plan, signed off by Monty and Ike, to use paras in a 'gamey exploit' and seize bridgeheads for a rapid advance (the plan was to originally conclude in 4 days).
The use of paras isn't 'tactical' (like calling in air support or artillery). Tactical is how you take the hill, strategy is how you develop a (in this case vertical) envelopment.

< Message edited by Seminole -- 2/17/2012 9:00:33 PM >

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RE: Geronimo!!!!! - 2/18/2012 2:19:59 AM   
Farfarer

 

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There is an incompatibility with the FBD rail supply model 'being an adequate emulation' of supply which will lead to a more or less historical Dec 41 stop line, and the ability to wipe supply to huge swathes of troops as the supply system is hyper-simplified, therefore has too many unrealistic single points of failure.

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RE: Geronimo!!!!! - 2/18/2012 2:42:25 AM   
Pelton

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Farfarer

There is an incompatibility with the FBD rail supply model 'being an adequate emulation' of supply which will lead to a more or less historical Dec 41 stop line, and the ability to wipe supply to huge swathes of troops as the supply system is hyper-simplified, therefore has too many unrealistic single points of failure.


What he said

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GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afmyypGyfng&list=PLrY4H4gWWBircAjo

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RE: Geronimo!!!!! - 2/18/2012 11:21:22 AM   
Savanniperkele


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No need to repeat the details (http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=3041651)

But how come it will be standard exploit as feeding whole southern half of German Eastern Armies and Panzer Armies trough Rumania has not become "a standard exploit" which has quite equally "zero historical basic". This is only respond to Peltonesque rushing the rails by constructing only one railroad and no network with a railhead already in Kursk area september 1941!


quote:

This really needs to be nerfed as it will become a standard exploit that has zero historical basic.

(in reply to Seminole)
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RE: Geronimo!!!!! - 2/18/2012 1:52:25 PM   
Marquo


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quote:

Sorry, you're just wrong here. Operation Market-Garden was a strategic level plan, signed off by Monty and Ike, to use paras in a 'gamey exploit' and seize bridgeheads for a rapid advance (the plan was to originally conclude in 4 days). The use of paras isn't 'tactical' (like calling in air support or artillery). Tactical is how you take the hill, strategy is how you develop a (in this case vertical) envelopment.


I disagree . Using a single para brigade to enable a single tank brigade to advance behind an entire Armee Groupe, does not belong in a strategic level game.

BTW, the Germans can do para drops in this game, with the potential to really hurt the Soviet. I did this a few times against the AI to great effect, but not yet against a human; though the first time I find a para 200 miles in my rear I will abandon all restraint.


Marquo

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RE: Geronimo!!!!! - 2/18/2012 2:00:03 PM   
Walloc

 

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Better yet drop em on several major factory sites in germany in turn 2.... Sorry u never get the panther, ops u only have half the vechicles production of the war. Not sure many players garrison their cities to prevent such.

Exploit patented!

Rasmus

< Message edited by Walloc -- 2/18/2012 2:03:18 PM >

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RE: Geronimo!!!!! - 2/18/2012 3:35:20 PM   
Seminole


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quote:

Using a single para brigade to enable a single tank brigade to advance behind an entire Armee Groupe, does not belong in a strategic level game.


Can you explain how you think that is possible. I can't make the math work on that as Russian morale is too low and EZOC and enemy hex costs are simply too high.

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RE: Geronimo!!!!! - 2/18/2012 4:23:11 PM   
AFV


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So I can move an entire mech corps into a hex, and it flips to pending my control, but if i drop a measly para brigade there, it suddenly flips to my control?
What is wrong with this picture?

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RE: Geronimo!!!!! - 2/18/2012 5:15:01 PM   
Seminole


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quote:

So I can move an entire mech corps into a hex, and it flips to pending my control, but if i drop a measly para brigade there, it suddenly flips to my control?
What is wrong with this picture?


Do I need to explain to you how it was easier for the 82nd and 101st airborne to seize control of territory more rapidly that XXX Corps advancing in a linear fashion from the front line?
Is that what you're asking?

I'm still curious about the 'single para brigade to enable a single tank brigade to advance behind an entire Armee Groupe'. Can you clarify that? Or was it just ludicrous exaggeration?

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RE: Geronimo!!!!! - 2/18/2012 6:37:44 PM   
Pelton

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Savanniperkele

No need to repeat the details (http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=3041651)

But how come it will be standard exploit as feeding whole southern half of German Eastern Armies and Panzer Armies trough Rumania has not become "a standard exploit" which has quite equally "zero historical basic". This is only respond to Peltonesque rushing the rails by constructing only one railroad and no network with a railhead already in Kursk area september 1941!


quote:

This really needs to be nerfed as it will become a standard exploit that has zero historical basic.



Its not your fault you just saw a big fat loop hole and jumped in both feet first. Which is good for the game in long run. This is public beta. They nerfed my uber panzer 1941 offensives, heheh. The game is better because of it and I had a hand in its nerfing hehehehe.

You should be happy.

They should name the new fixes after the poeple who found them or exploited them, heheeh

The basic logistic system and rail system is not very good as can be seen. This issue will be all worked out with witw and wite2 I am sure. 2by3's products always get better over time.

Most games ALL the rail lines are repaired 3 ro 4 hexes per turn so you don't get the 5 long single lines.

The rail repair issue was nerfed a few patchs ago. So I am not repairing lines any faster or slower then anyone esle. Only 4 bugged hexes left on the map I can find.

This exploit could be done to Jamiam or MT in there games as it was done 2 times in ours.

Jamiam, MT and myself are not doing anything different then anyone esle any more as rail repair is all standerd now. Its slower then before so there is zero chance of doing anything north south until mud or just before.

Pelton

_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afmyypGyfng&list=PLrY4H4gWWBircAjo

(in reply to Savanniperkele)
Post #: 29
RE: Geronimo!!!!! - 2/18/2012 6:48:32 PM   
Seminole


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quote:

Jamiam, MT and myself are not doing anything different then anyone esle any more as rail repair is all standerd now.


What happened to your construction subunits? Why does it appear they're not being utilized and not creating the interconnects and 'backfilling' the rail net?
Is a single line supporting AGS 'standard' in your view?
Still wondering how your rail construction benchmarks compared to the historical marks I mentioned in the other post.

(in reply to Pelton)
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