Matrix Games

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ORIGINAL: gradenko_2000
In contrast, once WITE enters the German-defensive phase, there doesn't seem to be all that much punch-and-counter-punch going on. Perhaps part of it is due to the nature and scale of the game, which we can't really change, but I daresay it's also influenced by the distance of the auto-victory conditions. Without a game-ending goal to aim for, there's not a lot of incentive for the German to go on the offensive in 1942 unless he can deal some really bad body blows to the Red Army, but the loss rates don't really encourage that either. So you turtle up without a Fall Blau, much less a future Zitadelle. German defense and Soviet mobility being what it is, much of it is slow going as well. That arguably is a lot less entertaining.

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ORIGINAL: 76mm

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ORIGINAL: Flaviusx
Fall Blau will look positively rational and even timid compared to what I expect to see happen.

hmmm, maybe, although I would think that such extreme measures would be vulnerable to counter-measures.

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ORIGINAL: Flaviusx
The Soviet player will never get a chance to march on Berlin. Some of us actually like the late game as the Soviets. I suppose we'll have to start advertising for 43 campaigns once the Axis player base signs on to this incredibly unsporting new "grand" campaign.

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ORIGINAL: Ketza
Rather then change the VP number why not make Berlin worth more? This would give the Axis players the opportunity to go for a knock out blow mid game but also give them an incentive to possibly win in 1945.

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ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

It is already possible to force a draw by keeping Berlin. That's good enough incentive imo. The real problem is that the stock game goes all the way to October, which is much too long and something the game engine frankly isn't designed to handle.

That said, I could see lowering the requirements for a minor victory. Instead of holding on to the initial start line more or less, perhaps something like holding on to a VP equivalent of greater Germany.

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It is already possible to force a draw by keeping Berlin. That's good enough incentive imo. The real problem is that the stock game goes all the way to October, which is much too long and something the game engine frankly isn't designed to handle.

That said, I could see lowering the requirements for a minor victory. Instead of holding on to the initial start line more or less, perhaps something like holding on to a VP equivalent of greater Germany.

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ORIGINAL: vicberg
The Soviets are too weak first year. The Germans are too weak during winter (except against Soviet shock troops), Leningrad is too weak overall. VPs should be adjusted. Economic loss of *some* cities should be greater. This would widely open the game up. It wouldn't be a German romp by any means. If 2by3 tweaks the game correctly, it should be a touch and go for both sides based on German first year objectives. It would see widely varying gameplay focusing on either capturing of cities for economic purposes, capturing of VPs (and going for economic centers such as Stalino should give lesser VPs than Moscow or Leningrad, but greater economic impact) or destruction of the Red Army. An improved first year Red Army would force the Germans to focus on what they want rather than being able to push everywhere, as they currently can.

It would see widely varying responses by the Soviets. Forward defense, preserve army (with economic consequences later, slowing the game down a bit), defend key locations. Germans go for victory and Soviet economy should remain intact. Germans go for economy and the game will last for sure into 44/45. Destroy the Red Army, who knows, depends on how much of the Red Army is destroyed.

That would be a very fun game and widely varied.

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ORIGINAL: Ketza
From what some players are saying is if you lower the victory points too much an all out Axis assault that fails and wrecks their army may very well lead to an early Axis exit.

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ORIGINAL: TDV

I’m Russian and I play only the Russian side. I must say there is not enough challenge to play for Russia now because the Germans are too weak, even in 1941. Germany has to have high chances to win in 1941-1942. If the Soviet player loses Leningrad, Moscow, Voronezh, Tambov, Rostov (roughly)  the game is over. It doesn’t mean Russia  lost the war, it means this certain chief of High Command is dismissed and executed. The game is over for him because of incompetence. I vote for 240 VP

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ORIGINAL: TDV

I played against Pelton my very first game. I was able to hold both Moscow and Leningrad. In the second game against Pelton I held Moscow and Leningrad again. If a green Russian player can do it against very experienced German opponent I would say the Germans are weak

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ORIGINAL: TDV

I played against Pelton my very first game. I was able to hold both Moscow and Leningrad. In the second game against Pelton I held Moscow and Leningrad again. If a green Russian player can do it against very experienced German opponent I would say the Germans are weak

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ORIGINAL: TDV

I played against Pelton my very first game. I was able to hold both Moscow and Leningrad. In the second game against Pelton I held Moscow and Leningrad again. If a green Russian player can do it against very experienced German opponent I would say the Germans are weak

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ORIGINAL: TDV

I’m Russian and I play only the Russian side. I must say there is not enough challenge to play for Russia now because the Germans are too weak, even in 1941. Germany has to have high chances to win in 1941-1942. If the Soviet player loses Leningrad, Moscow, Voronezh, Tambov, Rostov (roughly)  the game is over. It doesn’t mean Russia  lost the war, it means this certain chief of High Command is dismissed and executed. The game is over for him because of incompetence. I vote for 240 VP

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Exactly my thought (or fear)... We might see a mega massive push à la Pelton, disregarding completely other areas... Then of course if the Germans fail, the route to massive counter-attack is open. Either way, Axis resign, the Soviet player will never get to be on the offensive (1943/4/5)

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ORIGINAL: pzgndr

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Exactly my thought (or fear)... We might see a mega massive push à la Pelton, disregarding completely other areas... Then of course if the Germans fail, the route to massive counter-attack is open. Either way, Axis resign, the Soviet player will never get to be on the offensive (1943/4/5)

These fears are unfounded and completely distract from the issue. Sure, some idiots will go for a reckless strategy and quit early; always have and always will. But the idea of having automatic victory conditions in a WITE-type game has a very long positive legacy going back to boardgames like AH The Russian Campaign, Russian Front, etc. Between competent and experienced players, most games would go the distance and rarely end early with an automatic victory for one side or the other. Why? Simply because both players had incentives throughout the game to push hard not only to try for an early victory but also to deny one to their opponent. The natural result was to have challenging and enjoyable games for both sides. At least that's how I remember it, and every August at the World Boardgaming Championships there are many players who still continue to play and enjoy these old relics with such 'preposterous' victory conditions. It kinda makes me wonder if the naysayers are even old enough to remember such games. They are just games, after all...

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ORIGINAL: Flaviusx
Also just took another look at the M60 v. Pelton game. I think that one would be over under the DM 42 conditions. And I for one have a difficult time believing in that result. Plainly the Soviets have made many mistakes, but a surrender? Not likely.

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ORIGINAL: Wild

I know the usual suspects are terrified of this because they think they will no longer find axis players to play the original scenario and be their whipping boy.This might actually force them to play the game instead of the game playing itself to the inevitable conclusion.