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Refit Replacement Sub-Segment

 
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Refit Replacement Sub-Segment - 2/16/2012 4:47:13 PM   
Judykator


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Does the attached drawing digits are not too big? I have just a few turns. It is 1943-04-15 (turn 96) 1941-45 Campaing. Game version 1.05.63




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RE: Refit Replacement Sub-Segment - 2/16/2012 5:35:24 PM   
JAMiAM

 

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It does look odd...

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RE: Refit Replacement Sub-Segment - 2/16/2012 10:26:05 PM   
Denniss

 

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Look at the german transit pool, how many support, labor squads and manpower are listed there ?

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RE: Refit Replacement Sub-Segment - 2/17/2012 5:29:52 AM   
Judykator


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Denniss

Look at the german transit pool, how many support, labor squads and manpower are listed there ?


Where is this information?
My save:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/97837/Pliki/Jarek.sav

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RE: Refit Replacement Sub-Segment - 2/17/2012 7:14:48 AM   
Blubel

 

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You can look at the transit pools in the production screen, if select "transit pool".
You had about 600.000 guys in transit. It looks like they are upgrading to the new Rifle Squads. And there are also a huge amount of Labor Squads and Support Squads in the transit pool.

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RE: Refit Replacement Sub-Segment - 2/17/2012 7:17:32 AM   
Judykator


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So everything is OK

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RE: Refit Replacement Sub-Segment - 2/17/2012 5:43:48 PM   
Denniss

 

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Please either post screenshots with the relevant sections of your production screen or load up a savegame.

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RE: Refit Replacement Sub-Segment - 2/17/2012 5:52:20 PM   
Judykator


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Denniss

Please either post screenshots with the relevant sections of your production screen or load up a savegame.


Savegame is above (post #3)

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RE: Refit Replacement Sub-Segment - 2/17/2012 9:10:39 PM   
Denniss

 

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Huh - 604k manpower in the transfer pool, 21.7k labor squads and 19.1k support. That really hurts.

There's no easy way to recover this but you may want to try running at minimum one turn (better two) with maxTOE set to 50% for all your units (set via commander's report). I had a lot of them moved back to active pool this way although they came back with higher maxtoe settings (although not in these masses).

BTW a lot of your divisions are in really bad shape as the manpower is sucked-up by the circling equipment.

EDIT: I ran some tests with your save in human/human, about one month with 50% TOE is required to get circling manpower down to just over 100k but that leaves a lot of them laying around doing nothing. After four turns with 80% TOE there are just 3k support left in the transit pool but a massive 30k labor squads, leading to 363k manpower in transfer pool. I'll do some tests with lower maxTOE settings.


Sidenote: In my own testgames I had seen some strange behaviour with the german production - almost always when german armament points are to break the one million point, strange mass buildings of support and labor squads appeared despite often having more than enough in active pool.

< Message edited by Denniss -- 2/17/2012 10:34:32 PM >


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RE: Refit Replacement Sub-Segment - 2/17/2012 11:37:11 PM   
Denniss

 

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Update: the best result so far was with 80% maxTOE for all, then 50% for all construction type units (to get labor squad spam under control). About 200k manpower left in transfer pool after four turns.

Testing with 75+50 did not show a huge difference to 80/50, will do another 80/50 test with forts set to 50% as well.

EDIT: wow, this 80/50/50 test brought up surprising results - just 210k manpower left in transfer pool on turn 2, 130k in turn 3 and 87k on turn four. Just 3100 support and 2300 labor circling. Two turns later this has dropped to 2k support, 950 labor and 53k manpower. On turn 110 just a slight reduction to 1950 support, 820 labor and 49k manpower in transfer pool while having 163k manpower in active pool.

May this be a Hiwi-related calculation problem in the Logistic phase?
They are used for TOE percentages but not for maxTOE percentages ?
Example: a unit has less german support than both their pre-defined TOE suggests as max and their max TOE setting so someone in the unit HQ requests replacements which are sent in logistic phase 1. Upon arriving the quartermaster counts all german and Hiwi support and that's way above maxTOE settings so replacements are not accepted and sent back in logistic phase 2. Repeated turn after turn.

< Message edited by Denniss -- 2/18/2012 12:24:33 AM >

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RE: Refit Replacement Sub-Segment - 2/18/2012 1:04:12 AM   
Denniss

 

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Another update:
The breaking point for support units circling is 85%, anything higher will result in an increasing number of them stuck in transfer pool.

The breaking point for construction and fortress units (labor squads) is 55%, everything above will result in transfer pool flooded with labor squads.



< Message edited by Denniss -- 2/18/2012 1:40:43 AM >


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RE: Refit Replacement Sub-Segment - 2/18/2012 12:25:29 PM   
coolts


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Denniss, can you explain a little why you recommend these settings? Why are men "stuck" in the transit pool? Is this a bug or WAD? In my GC vs. AI on turn 60 as axis I have 271K manpower in the transit pool which seems a lot. I reduced all INF division to MAX toe 71% reduce demand on manpower. This has reduced the 'over' demand on the pool from the INF divisions and I now have a tiny active surplus. (although I may disband one div in each army to try and build up the TOE of other depleted divisions).

The transit pool seems huge though, the biggest chunks of that 271k are;

Labour squad - 9,192 in transit pool
Rifle - 1,496 (as expected as they are fighting after all)
Support - 7,626

I can’t filter support or labour units on the CR so can’t lower the TOE. All I can see are "const" units

Support units are part of every combat unit and Labour units seem to be part of rail repair units? Apologies if this is obvious but the logistics aspects of this game are fairly confusing and intriguing at the same time ;)


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RE: Refit Replacement Sub-Segment - 2/18/2012 12:57:49 PM   
Judykator


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And did such a great flow of people (transit pool) are bad in the game? I'm doing pretty well. Germany will soon earn 290 VP

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RE: Refit Replacement Sub-Segment - 2/18/2012 9:10:00 PM   
Denniss

 

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Labor squads are used in forts and construction units but support is used by every unit.
I took the save from above, changed it to human/human and tested multiple settings that actually reduced the amount of these items stuck in the transfer pool. That's how I arrived at these maxTOE settings of 85/55/55 for the given uit types (set all to 85%, then just forts and construction units to 55%).

Please try yourself using the savegame from above and the given settings, whatch out for newly arriving units and change their settings as well.

Note: There will always be activity in the transfer pool as equipment is constantly swapped/upgraded/replaced so some activity is OK (especially if new infantry squad types appear), you'll always see some equipment in transfer pool.
Germany really suffers from huge masses of support/labor in the transfer pool that never arrives, actively blocking replacements for units. Also it's a waste of large amounts of armament points as it will continue to build this equipment ending up in the transfer pool.

@coolts: please try these settings and report how the values change the next turn.

< Message edited by Denniss -- 2/18/2012 9:11:32 PM >

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RE: Refit Replacement Sub-Segment - 2/18/2012 9:44:39 PM   
Helpless


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The rotation is indeed very high here and I found several potential problems which may accelerate it. From other side there are some factors which contribute to such high rotation - many fortified zones with very low exp elements on the front line. Such units will have very high front line attrition at the same time fort units when close to be depleted are placed on refit automatically, if not set by player already.

I'll try to slow it down in coming patches.

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RE: Refit Replacement Sub-Segment - 2/18/2012 11:34:00 PM   
Denniss

 

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Some more testing:
All forts disbanded, no maxTOE change, the next turn 605k manpower in transfer pool, all other gained by disbanding moved to units. Both support and labor squads in transfer pool continue to raise.
After 4 turns (turn 107) in transfer pool: 22.1k support, 21.4k labor and 659.2k manpower.

On a sidenote: Hiwis seem to disappear on disbanding - not a single one reported back in pool. Only the german support and labor squads are properly transferred back to pool.

< Message edited by Denniss -- 2/18/2012 11:39:18 PM >

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RE: Refit Replacement Sub-Segment - 2/20/2012 11:45:12 AM   
coolts


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Denniss

I will try these settings tonight and report on their effect. Thanks for the insight.

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RE: Refit Replacement Sub-Segment - 2/20/2012 12:02:20 PM   
Denniss

 

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A development version currently undergoing testing has these problems fixed.

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RE: Refit Replacement Sub-Segment - 2/21/2012 9:00:00 AM   
coolts


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Denniss

Following your 85/55/55 TOE advice transit pool down from 271,000 to 73,000 in 4 turns with these figures still in transit;

Labour squads 1,728 (down from 9,192)

Supports 2,152 (from 7,626)

Much much better and my front line units are benefitting from the extra manpower.

I would think that a replacement priority system needs to be implemented (or tweaked if already in place) as, if the pool can only process 25% from transit each turn, and if the pool is stuffed with 1,000’s of damaged support squads, your returning frontline troops aren’t going to get a seat on those trains from Berlin ;)
Cheers


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"Gauls! We have nothing to fear; except perhaps that the sky may fall on our heads tomorrow. But as we all know, tomorrow never comes!!" - Chief Vitalstatistix

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