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Axis AI vs Redmarkus

 
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Axis AI vs Redmarkus - 2/16/2012 4:16:11 PM   
redmarkus4


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To test the effect of the following house rules under the latest Beta 1.05.63.

House Rules

Axis AI Morale 110
Soviet Human Morale 100
Forts at 25 for both sides
All else left at 100

Modelling of Soviet Shock, as suggested by delatbabel here http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3038859

My version of his suggested house rule:

Turn 1. Do nothing = Soviet shock
Turn 2. Move Sov air units and counter attack with Sov armour or mech only
Turn 3. Move Sov reserve units only (that is, units at least 10 hexes away from any Axis unit).
Turn 4. Move out of contact Sov units only (>2 hexes away from any Axis unit).
Turn 5 onwards, normal movement and combat.

Let us see what chaos results!




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< Message edited by redmarkus4 -- 2/16/2012 5:23:49 PM >

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RE: Axis AI vs Redmarkus - 2/16/2012 4:24:07 PM   
redmarkus4


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Status: offline 		TURN 1

Stalin retreats to his Dacha!




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RE: Axis AI vs Redmarkus - 2/16/2012 4:24:38 PM   
redmarkus4


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RE: Axis AI vs Redmarkus - 2/16/2012 4:27:37 PM   
redmarkus4


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Status: offline 		TURN 2

I will move air units and possibly make armoured or Mech counter attacks this turn.




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RE: Axis AI vs Redmarkus - 2/16/2012 4:28:11 PM   
redmarkus4


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Status: offline 		TURN 2 losses prior to my moves




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RE: Axis AI vs Redmarkus - 2/16/2012 4:57:00 PM   
redmarkus4


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Status: offline 		A couple of successful Mech attacks down south.

I note that the AI is still ignoring some key cities in direct contradiction to the Turn 1-2 strategy recommended in most AARs...

I had expected the taking of key objectives early on to have been programmed into the engine by now?




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< Message edited by redmarkus4 -- 2/16/2012 5:24:41 PM >

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RE: Axis AI vs Redmarkus - 2/16/2012 4:58:24 PM   
redmarkus4


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< Message edited by redmarkus4 -- 2/16/2012 5:06:54 PM >

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RE: Axis AI vs Redmarkus - 2/16/2012 5:04:44 PM   
redmarkus4


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Status: offline 		TURN 3

Riga still in Sov hands

Minsk still in Sov hands

AGS appears to have made no major efforts this turn.

AGN and AGC have also barely advanced.




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RE: Axis AI vs Redmarkus - 2/16/2012 5:05:58 PM   
redmarkus4


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Status: offline 		I have decided to do nothing on Turn 3 as the Soviet player. Let's see what the AI does in response.

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RE: Axis AI vs Redmarkus - 2/16/2012 5:13:02 PM   
redmarkus4


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RE: Axis AI vs Redmarkus - 2/16/2012 5:15:38 PM   
comsolut

 

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Status: online 		Is that a deliberate attempt to give the AI an advantage? If so, does that not invalidate your initial settings?

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RE: Axis AI vs Redmarkus - 2/16/2012 5:18:01 PM   
comsolut

 

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Status: online 		Follow up question, you set Fort level to 25, is that because you feel forts are overpowered or the AI cannot handle fort construction effectively?

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RE: Axis AI vs Redmarkus - 2/16/2012 5:18:07 PM   
redmarkus4


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Status: offline 		TURN 4

AGN and AGC push forward 3-4 hexes each.

Riga still stands

A bit of activity by AGS this turn, but under my house rules I would be able to escape the burgeoning Lvov pocket if I continued the game.

But I'm not going to. I don't find this to be a particularly impressive outcome for the AI, given that it's only T4 and I haven't put up any resistance to speak of.

Things needing attention:

1. AI still not attacking cities.
2. AI acting too cautiously during the Barbarossa phase - should be going hell for leather to the East at this stage.

Save games available if anyone asks for them.

ENDEX




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< Message edited by redmarkus4 -- 2/16/2012 5:25:47 PM >

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RE: Axis AI vs Redmarkus - 2/16/2012 5:18:54 PM   
redmarkus4


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RE: Axis AI vs Redmarkus - 2/16/2012 5:19:26 PM   
redmarkus4


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Status: offline 		AIR LOSSES TO T4




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RE: Axis AI vs Redmarkus - 2/16/2012 5:21:26 PM   
redmarkus4


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quote:

ORIGINAL: comsolut

Is that a deliberate attempt to give the AI an advantage? If so, does that not invalidate your initial settings?


UM... not sure I follow. It's the Axis AI. I gave it a morale advantage and ALSO deliberately didn't defend for the first 4 turns.

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RE: Axis AI vs Redmarkus - 2/16/2012 5:22:40 PM   
redmarkus4


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quote:

ORIGINAL: comsolut

Follow up question, you set Fort level to 25, is that because you feel forts are overpowered or the AI cannot handle fort construction effectively?


Just a note I read in the other thread referred to. Seemed like a good idea at the time to keep things fluid, but unlikely to have an effect on a test of this short duration.

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RE: Axis AI vs Redmarkus - 2/16/2012 7:12:33 PM   
Apollo11


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quote:

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4

House Rules

Axis AI Morale 110
Soviet Human Morale 100
Forts at 25 for both sides
All else left at 100


AI needs 110% for successful attacking in all settings... not just morale (the fort level is the only exception)...

This was related here several times!

BTW, please check Larry's AI vs. AI AAR...


Leo "Apollo11"

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RE: Axis AI vs Redmarkus - 2/16/2012 7:55:41 PM   
redmarkus4


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Status: offline 		OK, I will try that. I don't read everything typed here as I have a job :)

If the AI "needs" 110% to attack successfully, why isn't the default setting 110%?

I can't imagine how many people buy the game and then give up without ever visiting the forums.

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RE: Axis AI vs Redmarkus - 2/16/2012 7:58:49 PM   
redmarkus4


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RE: Axis AI vs Redmarkus - 2/16/2012 7:59:33 PM   
redmarkus4


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Status: offline 		This time I will do nothing as the Soviets for the first 4 turns. Hoping to get knocked to hell by the AI this time.

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RE: Axis AI vs Redmarkus - 2/16/2012 8:04:37 PM   
redmarkus4


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RE: Axis AI vs Redmarkus - 2/16/2012 8:04:57 PM   
Apollo11


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Status: offline 		Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4

OK, I will try that.


Good!


quote:



I don't read everything typed here as I have a job :)


As most of us have as well...


quote:


If the AI "needs" 110% to attack successfully, why isn't the default setting 110%?


This is "Challenging" setting - new players should always play "Normal" (i.e. 100% vs. 100%) first to learn the ropes...


quote:


I can't imagine how many people buy the game and then give up without ever visiting the forums.


Most players play against AI and they know from manual the AI settings (if they tried "Normal" and find it to easy it is natural to try higher levels)...


BTW the forums are visited by small amount of owners of the product and even smaller amount of those do actually post - this is a known "rule of a thumb" that is acknowledged for long long long time...


Leo "Apollo11"

_____________________________



Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

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RE: Axis AI vs Redmarkus - 2/16/2012 8:05:14 PM   
redmarkus4


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Status: offline 		TURN 1




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RE: Axis AI vs Redmarkus - 2/16/2012 8:09:26 PM   
Apollo11


Posts: 21615
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quote:

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4

This time I will do nothing as the Soviets for the first 4 turns. Hoping to get knocked to hell by the AI this time.


AI is AI - it is good but it is weaker than most of the experienced players (even with 110% help)!

Please do note that if you play the AI you are committing for long game - the AI will never rush (except for settings above 110% but those are really "murderous") - the 1941 will not be the "final decisive" year of the game against AI...

In my numerous tests (I have run close to 100 AI grand campaigns for development team) the 1942 is the best year for German AI (in it the AI seized Leningrad and Moscow the most)!


Leo "Apollo11"

_____________________________



Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

(in reply to redmarkus4)
Post #: 25
RE: Axis AI vs Redmarkus - 2/16/2012 8:10:14 PM   
redmarkus4


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Status: offline 		TURN 2

Riga still in Soviet hands.

Minsk still in Soviet hands and still in supply.

AGS almost no movement this turn.




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RE: Axis AI vs Redmarkus - 2/16/2012 8:14:49 PM   
redmarkus4


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Status: offline 		OK. The only points I am raising at the moment are the fact that it won't attack certain key cities (surely it can be coded to do that as part of an 'early moves' routine or script?) and that AGS in particular fails to move at all during Turn 2 and only a little in Turn 3.

If we are looking at a game where the Axis really needs to win in '41 to be sure of a win, then the early '41 AI scripts must be the most essential in the game.

A customer buying an East Front game is entitled to expect the Axis AI to blitz its way through the western USSR between June and July, no?

< Message edited by redmarkus4 -- 2/16/2012 8:33:22 PM >

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RE: Axis AI vs Redmarkus - 2/16/2012 8:17:24 PM   
redmarkus4


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Riga still holds.

Minsk still holds.

Minimal movement by AGN.

Almost zero movement by AGC and AGS.

All this is without a SINGLE command to any Soviet unit since the start of the game. I just click next turn as soon as I have the screenie.




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RE: Axis AI vs Redmarkus - 2/16/2012 8:19:59 PM   
Apollo11


Posts: 21615
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Status: offline 		Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4

OK. The only points I am raising at the moment are the fact that it won't attack certain key cities (surely it can be coded to do that as part of an 'early moves' routine or script?) and that AGS in particular fails to move at all during Turn 2 and only a little in Turn 3.

If we are looking at a game where the Axis really needs to win in '41 to be sure of a win, then the early '41 AI scripts must be the most essential in the game.

A customer buying an East Front game is entitled to expect the Axis AI to blitz its way through the western USSR between June and July, no?


As always in Gary Grigsby games the AI will try to follow the history as much as possible!

In UV and WitP (and new WitP-AE that was further developed without 2By3) it was the same thing...

The AI is quite capable at 110% but it will most certainly not "blitz" through Soviet defense... it is AI we are talking about after all...


Please just play at least till end of 1942 (it should not be boring)!


Leo "Apollo11"

_____________________________



Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

(in reply to redmarkus4)
Post #: 29
RE: Axis AI vs Redmarkus - 2/16/2012 8:28:57 PM   
redmarkus4


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Leo, I'm not disputing that the AI will give me a tough time. I'm just saying that it needs to be adjusted so that it behaves more aggressively (and logically) during the early war.

For example, below, this is a clear indication that the AI avoids urban areas which should actually be objectives - ports and key cities in this case. This is the situation on T4.




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