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turn1 airfield attacks

 
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turn1 airfield attacks - 2/15/2012 9:52:49 PM   
sath

 

Posts: 424
Joined: 2/21/2010
Status: offline 		I'm wondering if there is any concern over the signifigantly lower Russian aircraft losses on turn 1 due to certain changes of recent patches. Is this what is intended or is it being looked into. I've not seen too much discussion on this.
Post #: 1
RE: turn1 airfield attacks - 2/15/2012 11:10:19 PM   
Zort

 

Posts: 666
Joined: 7/19/2004
From: Colorado Springs, CO
Status: offline 		Seems this is how it is now intended to work. Can't find the thread right now but this has been discussed and lower losses are what was intended in the latest patches.

< Message edited by Zort -- 2/15/2012 11:24:00 PM >

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Post #: 2
RE: turn1 airfield attacks - 2/16/2012 12:19:18 AM   
Farfarer

 

Posts: 661
Joined: 7/21/2004
Status: offline 		Someone posted that it is better to leave them alone so the Red Air pool stays filled with junk.

Might face some interdiction though. Probably best to damage planes then overun the airfields, but as a contrarian, I like the idea of forcing biplanes for ages unless the Sov pays for manual upgrades.

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Post #: 3
RE: turn1 airfield attacks - 2/16/2012 2:21:55 AM   
Flaviusx


Posts: 5744
Joined: 9/9/2009
Status: online 		Despite having more aircraft, I haven't noticed any increase at all in the efficiency of the Red Air force. It's still junk in 1941.

Going to let you in on a little tester secret: the game is hard coded so that ground support missions are disorganized in 1941. All the planes in the world won't matter, nor will their experience or morale. Only in 1942 does this hard coded penalty go away. The result of said penalty is that only a very few planes show up for ground support missions that first year. You could have 1000 shturmoviks ready to go, and the result is still the same -- 6-12 guys showing up. If a few luftwaffe fighters respond, these few planes that make it get blown out of the sky.

Since ground support is by far the most important mission in the game, this is more or less taking the Red Air Force out of the ground war for a full year.

Interdiction is probably the best thing you can do with the Red Air Force in 1941 (since you only need a few planes for these to actually succeed) along of course with straight up interception. Swarms of fighters will make life miserable for the Luftwaffe. But this has always been the case since 1.05 came out. Even with 5k air kills on turn one.

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RE: turn1 airfield attacks - 2/16/2012 3:57:21 PM   
Cerion

 

Posts: 95
Joined: 9/16/2009
From: Europe
Status: offline
quote:

Can't find the thread right now but this has been discussed and lower losses are what was intended in the latest patches.


This is the other thread:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3030879&mpage=1&key=

Regards

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Post #: 5
RE: turn1 airfield attacks - 2/16/2012 4:39:41 PM   
Q-Ball


Posts: 5261
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Chicago, Illinois
Status: offline 		That is interesting note Flav....I didn't know that, though empirical evidence shows that most of the time, nobody shows

I like using the VVS for Ground Bombing ahead of counterattacks; I think this helps a bit in terms of disruption. But Ground Support doesn't do much.

I think Fighter Interception works too well for the VVS in 1941 in the game. If you deploy all the fighters you can, and set Intercept to 300, you will chew the Luftwaffe up pretty good over time, particularly the bomber units. I have done it a couple times, and had it happen to me as the Germans.

Even crappy, low-experience fighters get some knocks in, if there are enough of them. As VVS, I send-up I-16s, I-153, anything that can fly and shoot forwards.

As Germans, I used to focus on the Bombers, but I would clear all the fighters first. As a bonus, there a are quite a few close to the front

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Post #: 6
RE: turn1 airfield attacks - 2/16/2012 4:46:56 PM   
Offworlder

 

Posts: 840
Joined: 8/27/2008
Status: offline 		Yes but as the Axis you normally kill more Soviet planes on the ground when you overrun their airfields than in the sky. But its true as the soviets it makes sense to send up droves of fighters all at one go on interception missions since you can lose 5 to 1 and still make a profit, so to say. Besides, if the LW fighters have flown their limit, any LW ground attacks by bombers have to come in unescorted, meaning that it would be a turkey shoot for the Soviet airforce.

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Post #: 7
RE: turn1 airfield attacks - 2/16/2012 5:13:54 PM   
Flaviusx


Posts: 5744
Joined: 9/9/2009
Status: online 		Q-ball, when those shturmoviks can actually show up in numbers on ground support, it's like night and day. I think they're worth a good odds column by themselves once they can fly for real. Direct bombing is a joke by comparison, although it gives your guys something to do in 41 and chance to occasionally whack an enemy general. (I've had poor luck in this, but others seem to do better.)






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RE: turn1 airfield attacks - 2/16/2012 5:32:20 PM   
traemyn

 

Posts: 135
Joined: 1/21/2005
Status: offline 		Back to the original question...

1. What are the average Soviet air losses after turn 1 (both sides)?
2. On average, is this close to what was historically done?

I am wondering if we are getting to caught up on the numbers of the initial bombing airfields and not looking at the total number after the first week. In otherwords, the 4500 or so you could destroy a couple patches ago by just airfield bombing looks about the right number historically, but was it actually too high considering the amount at end of turn 1?

I've found some stats for the number of planes the Soviets lost in the first few days and first 9 days, but nothing specifically cutoff at a week so I am curious about this as well.

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Post #: 9
RE: turn1 airfield attacks - 2/16/2012 5:41:43 PM   
Flaviusx


Posts: 5744
Joined: 9/9/2009
Status: online 		2000-2200 seems to be the range in PBEM games. Could be less in AI games.

Note that the first turn is 3 days long, not a week. (So is the second turn.) The old 4500-5000 plane losses on the first turn were way overstated.

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RE: turn1 airfield attacks - 2/16/2012 6:03:44 PM   
traemyn

 

Posts: 135
Joined: 1/21/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Note that the first turn is 3 days long, not a week. (So is the second turn.)


Thank you for noting that.

I found a source that says 2000 by end of the second day so 2200 is somewhat close. The next question is what influence did the actions of the Soviets contribute to the losses. Is it fair to assume that in the air war, like the ground war, casulties would be a lot higher if the WiTE Soviet played as they acted historically?

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Post #: 11
RE: turn1 airfield attacks - 2/16/2012 6:26:39 PM   
Flaviusx


Posts: 5744
Joined: 9/9/2009
Status: online 		Correction. 2nd turn is a full week. Brain fart on my part.



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RE: turn1 airfield attacks - 2/16/2012 6:53:44 PM   
sath

 

Posts: 424
Joined: 2/21/2010
Status: offline 		Yeah but the Germans are not going to kill that many planes after turn 1 with AF bombing. I'm just wondering if the patch goes to far to limit the first turn Russian plane losses.

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Post #: 13
RE: turn1 airfield attacks - 2/16/2012 11:26:18 PM   
Farfarer

 

Posts: 661
Joined: 7/21/2004
Status: offline 		When I play Sov, I re-role all the crap to bombers and send waves of hundreds ( often to their end) in order to disrupt the Axis target prior to a ground attack.

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Post #: 14
RE: turn1 airfield attacks - 2/17/2012 9:00:42 AM   
Tazak

 

Posts: 30
Joined: 9/3/2011
Status: offline 		I've started and restarted serveal times against the AI and seem to get around 2000 (+/- 250) kills on airfield attacks alone, add in 400(ish) air kills, top off with op losses and i see generally around 2500 SU air losses in the first turn

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Post #: 15
RE: turn1 airfield attacks - 2/19/2012 11:08:54 PM   
DorianGray

 

Posts: 85
Joined: 8/2/2008
Status: offline 		I love you man! Thank you for the tester-tip so I can put that issue to rest.

No reason to burden my therapist with it anymore either.

(Only wish I had the complete list of insider tester tips)

:)

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Post #: 16
RE: turn1 airfield attacks - 2/19/2012 11:16:23 PM   
DorianGray

 

Posts: 85
Joined: 8/2/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: traemyn


quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Note that the first turn is 3 days long, not a week. (So is the second turn.)


Thank you for noting that.

I found a source that says 2000 by end of the second day so 2200 is somewhat close. The next question is what influence did the actions of the Soviets contribute to the losses. Is it fair to assume that in the air war, like the ground war, casulties would be a lot higher if the WiTE Soviet played as they acted historically?


This seems a bit low IMO for 1st turn. I think I can still consistently get around 3000+ on 1st turn even now.

I used to get 5.5 - 6.5k SU airlosses on the first turn. This somewhat surprised my PBEM opponent. But that was ok because he ran like the wind and the ground losses sucked for the next 18 turns.

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Post #: 17
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