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possible new updated manual in PDF? - 2/12/2012 10:35:25 AM   
GeorgePatton


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Kudos to the dev team on the latest update in 2012 to AE but will a new updated manual will be available in PDF form? It's been almost 3 years since the game came out and already it's gone through so many changes.

I'm actually lost as to what some of the notations means now on the various LCU, base, naval unit lists etc. that are not in the printed manual that I had received in the boxed version in 2009. Having to go back through all the changes on the list is quite daunting as I find it hard to reconcile what got updated and what got deleted etc.

I'd be willing to buy a completely new manual as well if some of the major changes were incorporated into a new updated book

Thanks



< Message edited by GeorgePatton -- 2/12/2012 10:38:26 AM >


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RE: possible new updated manual in PDF? - 2/12/2012 3:25:15 PM   
Woody


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+1

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RE: possible new updated manual in PDF? - 2/12/2012 3:29:55 PM   
nate25


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I'd purchase this as well. Looks like quite a few new features that, if you're new like me, need to be explained.

Thanks,
Nate

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Post #: 3
RE: possible new updated manual in PDF? - 2/13/2012 8:05:45 PM   
geofflambert


Posts: 3975
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Looking at the product page, it says in one place the boxed version comes with a 196 page full color manual. In another place it say a 330 pg. yada yada yada (the old book). I don't think they could have boiled down the original plus changes and additions to 196 pages unless the dimensions of the book have increased greatly (as well as the cost of the whole package). I'm thinking the 196 pg. thing is an addendum and you get both in the new boxed version. This ought to be available PDF or easily made so. If anyone knows who to contact on this issue, please do so, don't think they necessarily pay attention to these forums.

(in reply to nate25)
Post #: 4
RE: possible new updated manual in PDF? - 2/13/2012 8:22:50 PM   
Sardaukar


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Idea of new manual, even in PDF format is basically dead, IMHO.

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Post #: 5
RE: possible new updated manual in PDF? - 2/13/2012 8:46:29 PM   
Empire101


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

Idea of new manual, even in PDF format is basically dead, IMHO.





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but being bored is greatly preferable to being prematurely dead because of some ideological fantasy.
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Post #: 6
RE: possible new updated manual in PDF? - 2/13/2012 8:59:19 PM   
Sardaukar


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It'd have to be volunteer project..and life would be too short. This is one reason why there is this very active forum...ask and you will be answered.

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Post #: 7
RE: possible new updated manual in PDF? - 2/13/2012 9:08:59 PM   
Apollo11


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Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

Idea of new manual, even in PDF format is basically dead, IMHO.


It should not be that way...

I have done it with WitE...


Leo "Apollo11"

_____________________________



Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

(in reply to Sardaukar)
Post #: 8
RE: possible new updated manual in PDF? - 2/13/2012 9:17:52 PM   
Sardaukar


Posts: 5789
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From: Finland/now in Israel
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

Idea of new manual, even in PDF format is basically dead, IMHO.


It should not be that way...

I have done it with WitE...


Leo "Apollo11"


Well...it'd be a massive project for AE. I shudder how complicated it'd get..not to mention getting 2 people to agree about how game calculates things.
AE is step up in complexity even when compared to WitE.

_____________________________

"To meaningless French Idealism, Liberty, Fraternity and Equality...we answer with German Realism, Infantry, Cavalry and Artillery" -Prince von Bülov, 1870-


(in reply to Apollo11)
Post #: 9
RE: possible new updated manual in PDF? - 2/13/2012 9:23:39 PM   
Apollo11


Posts: 22421
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Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

Idea of new manual, even in PDF format is basically dead, IMHO.


It should not be that way...

I have done it with WitE...


Well...it'd be a massive project for AE. I shudder how complicated it'd get..not to mention getting 2 people to agree about how game calculates things.
AE is step up in complexity even when compared to WitE.


It is big undertaking but it can be done...


The essential thing is to have the original WinWord document and all pictures from release manual. With that you create workable version in which you add appropriate rule to appropriate section in manual...

BTW, there should not be any problem with agreement / disagreement - new rules from addendum are just placed into appropriate manual sections!


Leo "Apollo11"


P.S.
Sighted typo fixed...

< Message edited by Apollo11 -- 2/13/2012 9:24:29 PM >


_____________________________



Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

(in reply to Sardaukar)
Post #: 10
RE: possible new updated manual in PDF? - 2/13/2012 9:58:20 PM   
crsutton


Posts: 6845
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I'm still looking for the player who knows 100% how this game works...When I find him (her) we should take up a collection and ask him (her) to do it....

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Post #: 11
RE: possible new updated manual in PDF? - 2/14/2012 9:36:03 AM   
michaelm


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I have said that I will get an updated manual done sometime after (a) I stop making updates, and (b) have a break in my real work commitments which seem to have suddenly increased.

Well (a) seems to be underway as patch finally done.


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RE: possible new updated manual in PDF? - 2/14/2012 10:24:28 AM   
n01487477


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quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelm

I have said that I will get an updated manual done sometime after (a) I stop making updates, and (b) have a break in my real work commitments which seem to have suddenly increased.

Well (a) seems to be underway as patch finally done.


Michael,
Can you tell us whether:-
[1] This means you'll no longer be making updates?
[2] Are taking a break from making new updates ?
[3] Are going to working in the background on new updates?
[4] Are undecided or been instructed to take a break ?

I'm sure most of us are curious about this ...

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Post #: 13
RE: possible new updated manual in PDF? - 2/14/2012 10:36:24 AM   
michaelm


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All 4

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Post #: 14
RE: possible new updated manual in PDF? - 2/14/2012 1:27:14 PM   
USS America


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Thanks for clearing that up!

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"Good times will set you free" - Jimmy Buffett

"They need more rum punch" - Me


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Post #: 15
RE: possible new updated manual in PDF? - 2/14/2012 1:35:51 PM   
Joe D.


Posts: 3454
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From: Stratford, Connecticut
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quote:

ORIGINAL: GeorgePatton

Kudos to the dev team on the latest update in 2012 to AE but will a new updated manual will be available in PDF form? ...


Assuming that the last public beta is the same patch as the official v1.01.08r9, I haven't seen anything in my pdf manual to describe the new features; although many of them are self-explanatory, some need a brief explanation.

Would the biggest issue with updating the manual be changing the pages of the appendix to accomodate the added text?

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Post #: 16
RE: possible new updated manual in PDF? - 5/7/2012 2:06:27 PM   
Cmdrcain


Posts: 1155
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From: Rebuilding FLA, Busy Repairing!
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

Idea of new manual, even in PDF format is basically dead, IMHO.


It should not be that way...

I have done it with WitE...


Leo "Apollo11"




All we need is an addendum... explaining the new symbols especially from recent patch and frankly those who worked on patch must have the documented changes and what this added symbol means and just would need gather up those patch doc's and issue us an addendum sheet of what all the abbrevs on screen mean.



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Post #: 17
RE: possible new updated manual in PDF? - 5/7/2012 2:44:35 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

I'm still looking for the player who knows 100% how this game works...When I find him (her) we should take up a collection and ask him (her) to do it....


I think JWE probably qualifies. But if he wrote a new manual the Woof Ratio would be so high it'd be 1000 pages . . .

(Joke! Joke!)

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Post #: 18
RE: possible new updated manual in PDF? - 5/7/2012 3:00:55 PM   
Canoerebel


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I am not a technical writer, but I am a writer and an editor.  As such, I would tremble, throw up and pass out at the very thought of the amount of time it would take to comprehensively and accurattely update the manual.  The amount of time required and the headaches would be awesome.  The only way somebody would do that is if they were (a) insane or (b) had a monetary incentive - IE, knowing that a four-year-old game would generate sufficient revenue to cover the immense amount of effort required.

While there is no indication that something new in the way of WitP: AE II is even in the contemplation stage right now, I think that project would be more likely at this late date.

(in reply to Bullwinkle58)
Post #: 19
RE: possible new updated manual in PDF? - 5/7/2012 5:02:56 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I am not a technical writer, but I am a writer and an editor.  As such, I would tremble, throw up and pass out at the very thought of the amount of time it would take to comprehensively and accurattely update the manual.  The amount of time required and the headaches would be awesome.  The only way somebody would do that is if they were (a) insane or (b) had a monetary incentive - IE, knowing that a four-year-old game would generate sufficient revenue to cover the immense amount of effort required.

While there is no indication that something new in the way of WitP: AE II is even in the contemplation stage right now, I think that project would be more likely at this late date.


I would add my vote to not needing a new manual, but a 1-page summary of all the new and old ASCII symbols used in the report screens, as well as the meaning of various colored texts, would set me up.

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Post #: 20
RE: possible new updated manual in PDF? - 5/8/2012 4:32:38 PM   
dr.hal


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It would seem that there is enough expertise on this forum who might have the time to take chunks of the manual and rework it if they were given the original and then post it for review/suggestions/corrections and then one person put it all together and presto, a new manual. If volunteers are needed, wouldn't this forum be the place to start looking for them? Hal

(in reply to Bullwinkle58)
Post #: 21
RE: possible new updated manual in PDF? - 5/8/2012 6:05:01 PM   
Canoerebel


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No, that won't work. 

You're thinking:  "And why not?"

Trust me.  It won't.  Nightmare.  Awful.  Take Forever.  Would have all Kinds of Errors and Omissions.

The only person that could handle updating the manual is somebody who is intimately familiar with the entire game and all updates.  And I mean Intimately.  There are people that have that kind of comprehensive knowledge, but probably they actually have lives and want to enjoy them, so they would run screaming from the very notion.

(in reply to dr.hal)
Post #: 22
RE: possible new updated manual in PDF? - 5/8/2012 8:28:56 PM   
Apollo11


Posts: 22421
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Hi all,

Let me tell you guys how I did it for WitE...


I was the second ALPHA WitE member responsible for working manual whilst WitE was in development and I established the original TOC ("Table of Contents") for the document.

Before me another ALPHA WitE member Rafael ("rjh1971") was first responsible for the manual and he created first working version of WitE documentation by placing each and every tidbit and rule into one single place.

When WitE was close to finalization professional manual writer was employed to finish the work and put everything into place (this was much needed move since both Rafael and I are not native English speakers). It was huge task and it was done very good!

Before it was send to Matrix for finish the final WitE working manual was pure text WinWord document (small, I think, B5 paper size that Matrix uses for manuals) and separate pictures (in text there was info where every separate picture or table should go).

After WitE was released and after numerous improvements were made to game I asked Joel (2By3) and Erik (Matrix) if I can create updated WitE manual. They accepted and I started to work...


Here is what I did:

#1
I used original pure text WinWord manual and crated proper US Letter sized document. I placed every picture and table into appropriate place.

#2
I placed all changes in Addendum (in chronological order - every patch being listed separately).

#3
I put every "forgotten rules" that we discovered since release into document and fixed all sighted errors that both players and tester noticed after release.

#4
I connected TOC with every section (i.e. the document was TOC "jumpable").

#5
I made whole document "section jumpable" (i.e. if you click on "See section xx.yy.zz" you would jump to that section).

#6
After much work I made the document contain copy of each and every applicable rule change from Addendum to appropriate section in main manual body.



So... it is possible to be done... it just takes time and dedication...



Leo "APollo11"

_____________________________



Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 23
RE: possible new updated manual in PDF? - 5/8/2012 8:41:19 PM   
USS America


Posts: 15882
Joined: 10/28/2002
From: Apex, NC, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Hi all,

Let me tell you guys how I did it for WitE...


I was the second ALPHA WitE member responsible for working manual whilst WitE was in development and I established the original TOC ("Table of Contents") for the document.

Before me another ALPHA WitE member Rafael ("rjh1971") was first responsible for the manual and he created first working version of WitE documentation by placing each and every tidbit and rule into one single place.

When WitE was close to finalization professional manual writer was employed to finish the work and put everything into place (this was much needed move since both Rafael and I are not native English speakers). It was huge task and it was done very good!

Before it was send to Matrix for finish the final WitE working manual was pure text WinWord document (small, I think, B5 paper size that Matrix uses for manuals) and separate pictures (in text there was info where every separate picture or table should go).

After WitE was released and after numerous improvements were made to game I asked Joel (2By3) and Erik (Matrix) if I can create updated WitE manual. They accepted and I started to work...


Here is what I did:

#1
I used original pure text WinWord manual and crated proper US Letter sized document. I placed every picture and table into appropriate place.

#2
I placed all changes in Addendum (in chronological order - every patch being listed separately).

#3
I put every "forgotten rules" that we discovered since release into document and fixed all sighted errors that both players and tester noticed after release.

#4
I connected TOC with every section (i.e. the document was TOC "jumpable").

#5
I made whole document "section jumpable" (i.e. if you click on "See section xx.yy.zz" you would jump to that section).

#6
After much work I made the document contain copy of each and every applicable rule change from Addendum to appropriate section in main manual body.



So... it is possible to be done... it just takes time and dedication...



Leo "APollo11"


God Bless you, Leo!

Please don't forget to mention that you volunteered all of this time!

Can we get a volunteer for AE?

_____________________________

Mike

"Good times will set you free" - Jimmy Buffett

"They need more rum punch" - Me


Artwork by The Amazing Dixie

(in reply to Apollo11)
Post #: 24
RE: possible new updated manual in PDF? - 5/8/2012 9:05:12 PM   
Bullwinkle58


Posts: 8049
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

No, that won't work. 

You're thinking:  "And why not?"

Trust me.  It won't.  Nightmare.  Awful.  Take Forever.  Would have all Kinds of Errors and Omissions.

The only person that could handle updating the manual is somebody who is intimately familiar with the entire game and all updates.  And I mean Intimately.  There are people that have that kind of comprehensive knowledge, but probably they actually have lives and want to enjoy them, so they would run screaming from the very notion.


I've seen college work groups writing a group paper come to actual blows, and that was four people who were physically together and could read body language. Group writing projects almost never lead to a better product than could be done by a single writer left alone.

_____________________________

The Moose

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 25
RE: possible new updated manual in PDF? - 5/9/2012 2:27:59 PM   
littleike

 

Posts: 99
Joined: 10/3/2007
Status: offline
The dream of an ancient dusty big final manual where found answers to all game questions like the tome that wizards consult at the flickering flame of a candle up there in the manor tower is something of subliminal that every game player ( me too) has always had.

I also asked many times for a revised copy of the manual thinking that this final release would be able to resolve all my questioning about the game rules and strategies. But as soon as time was passing i have been thinking that the wait for a final manual perhaps was only an alibi to don't study as deep as this game require to be managed.

That said is indubitable that Witp AE has had so many upgrades and tweakings that the need of something more revised documentation has become more than a necessity.

If the release of a revised manual is not planned ( i also will be happy to pay for it ) we have only the actual manual and the forum.

The actual manual is still invaluable because it describe all of the game stuff and It is a good operating manual ( to learn how and where to do things ) but outdated or incomplete in strategies description.

So if we suppose to upgrade and use the manual only for his operating part (leaving the strategies) we need only to update the mask descriptions adding the buttons that have been deleted,modified or added during the patch process. This could be done very easy looking at the manual mask description and having the game opened on the same mask.
Creating this addendum where to describe the use of the new buttons with all the mask variations integrated by a description of the colors and symbols used in the masks and reports could finish the work on the manual.

For the strategies and a deeper description of techniques we could use the forum and create a document to be added for topics:
Many things are just in there:

The air coordination guide
The repair ship 101 guide
could be the first two topics


This sort of "strategic guide" could be put in an adobe acrobat document form for consulting purposes and expanded for topics ( a sort of the avalon hill The general publication dedicated only to this game) Obviously this guide should be managed from someone very expert to whom forum members could submit their topics created from their experience or extracted from the forum threads for subsequent approval revision and publication.

(in reply to Bullwinkle58)
Post #: 26
RE: possible new updated manual in PDF? - 5/9/2012 6:33:05 PM   
Bullwinkle58


Posts: 8049
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: littleike

The dream of an ancient dusty big final manual where found answers to all game questions like the tome that wizards consult at the flickering flame of a candle up there in the manor tower is something of subliminal that every game player ( me too) has always had.

I also asked many times for a revised copy of the manual thinking that this final release would be able to resolve all my questioning about the game rules and strategies. But as soon as time was passing i have been thinking that the wait for a final manual perhaps was only an alibi to don't study as deep as this game require to be managed.

That said is indubitable that Witp AE has had so many upgrades and tweakings that the need of something more revised documentation has become more than a necessity.

If the release of a revised manual is not planned ( i also will be happy to pay for it ) we have only the actual manual and the forum.

The actual manual is still invaluable because it describe all of the game stuff and It is a good operating manual ( to learn how and where to do things ) but outdated or incomplete in strategies description.

So if we suppose to upgrade and use the manual only for his operating part (leaving the strategies) we need only to update the mask descriptions adding the buttons that have been deleted,modified or added during the patch process. This could be done very easy looking at the manual mask description and having the game opened on the same mask.
Creating this addendum where to describe the use of the new buttons with all the mask variations integrated by a description of the colors and symbols used in the masks and reports could finish the work on the manual.

For the strategies and a deeper description of techniques we could use the forum and create a document to be added for topics:
Many things are just in there:

The air coordination guide
The repair ship 101 guide
could be the first two topics


This sort of "strategic guide" could be put in an adobe acrobat document form for consulting purposes and expanded for topics ( a sort of the avalon hill The general publication dedicated only to this game) Obviously this guide should be managed from someone very expert to whom forum members could submit their topics created from their experience or extracted from the forum threads for subsequent approval revision and publication.


All good ideas, but I've been hanging around here and in the WITP forum for over six years and it's never quite happened. Why? Time. Money. Time. Interest. Expertise. Time.

There have been aborted attmepts at Wikis. That might be a way to go if you're interested.

But what it seems to come down to is players want to play, not write. I write, sometimes. It's hard, lonely work. It's even harder when it's for free.

And expertise? A bare handful of players come close to having enough to do the project, and most of them (all?) already put in years designing and coding the thing. Many of them are at work on the Da Babes project, which seems to me, a non-designer, as probably a heck of a lot more fun than writing a manual.

If michaelm ever gets caught up in real life and wants to do a one-pager on buttons and ASCII symbols in the TOE screens, and colored text, etc. I would be the first to thank him. But I don't expect him to. He's done more than enough already.

And Matrix? Oh, look! A pig, up in the AIR!!!!

< Message edited by Bullwinkle58 -- 5/9/2012 6:37:11 PM >


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Post #: 27
RE: possible new updated manual in PDF? - 5/9/2012 7:19:50 PM   
PizzaMan


Posts: 206
Joined: 7/14/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: littleike


For the strategies and a deeper description of techniques we could use the forum and create a document to be added for topics:
Many things are just in there:

The air coordination guide
The repair ship 101 guide
could be the first two topics


This sort of "strategic guide" could be put in an adobe acrobat document form for consulting purposes and expanded for topics ( a sort of the avalon hill The general publication dedicated only to this game) Obviously this guide should be managed from someone very expert to whom forum members could submit their topics created from their experience or extracted from the forum threads for subsequent approval revision and publication.



If they are only limited to non-gamey yet historical type strategy and tactics, great. We'd need to avoid strategy and tactics like 4E below 10k, CAP, and Search Archs.

(in reply to littleike)
Post #: 28
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