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Sappers and Engineers

 
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Sappers and Engineers - 2/11/2012 4:33:38 AM   
delatbabel


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Because someone asked in another post, I'll give my take on it.

Starting in 1941, as the Soviets, you have 4 types of construction support units you can purchase. They are:

* Sapper Battalions
* Sapper Regiments
* Construction Battalions
* RR Construction Brigades

Of these, 2 I never build -- Sapper Battalions and Construction Battalions. Each of these units costs 1 AP to build, and as the Soviets you are constantly short of APs. If you build a Sapper Battalion and a Sapper Regiment they cost the same, but the regiment is more effective, and has a larger construction value for the same AP cost. Hence it makes no sense to build any of the Battalions.

RR Construction Brigades will automatically detach from their Army or Front HQ to repair any broken rail lines in the area. They will do that without any player control, although the player can return them to their controlling HQ during the Soviet turn. This is an extremely effective ability because it reduces your reliance on those scarce NKPS units. If they are attached to an Army HQ that is not locked then they will return to the controlling front HQ once they have finished repairing lines, which isn't so useful -- remember to lock your HQs after you build RR Construction Brigades!!!

Sapper Regiments will not do that, so at first it appears that the RR Construction Brigades are a better buy (the RR Construction Brigades also have a slightly higher construction value, hence build forts a little faster). However, sappers have two extra special abilities, which are:

* They will help destroy enemy forts.
* They can be directly attached to rifle, cavalry and tank corps.

Therefore I always build approximately one sapper regiment for each rifle corps I plan to build, and one for most of the cavalry and mech corps (I don't tend to build them for the tank corps because I don't tend to use tanks to attack forts).

In addition, I build one sapper regiment for each fortified region I build. Note that you have to build them in the controlling army or front HQ first, then transfer them to the fortified region in the next turn, so build them early. Before disbanding the FR I release the sappers back to the HQ. This is all because the construction value of the sappers will be added to the construction value of the FR to assist the FR to build forts.

RR Construction Brigades can't be directly attached to corps, but they will help fortify if they are in the controlling HQ and the HQ is within range. RR Construction Brigades can be attached directly to fortified regions, but I usually use sappers for that instead and let the RR Construction Brigades sit in the HQ and spread out to do their work.


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RE: Sappers and Engineers - 2/11/2012 4:39:47 AM   
Flaviusx


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I've switched almost entirely to sapper regiments myself, except for a few RR brigades assigned to Fronts. The RR brigades were a much better buy back when forts were overpowered. Now...not so much.

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RE: Sappers and Engineers - 2/11/2012 4:45:38 AM   
2ndACR


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Must be nice to be able to build all the engineer units you want. I would love to have the ability to build support units. Or to have any control over the composition of my army.

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RE: Sappers and Engineers - 2/11/2012 12:43:35 PM   
Tarhunnas


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I have tried to create construction battallions attached to Fortified Zones as the Soviet, but apparently I cannot do that. It seems I cannot assign any support units at all to my FZs. Shouldn't that be possible? It would seem eminently realistic that STAVKA sent lots of labor to hasten the construction of fortifications in some area.

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41Ger
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RE: Sappers and Engineers - 2/11/2012 3:35:08 PM   
76mm


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I have definitely assigned arty SUs to FZs, have not tried construction units.

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RE: Sappers and Engineers - 2/11/2012 6:15:57 PM   
JAMiAM

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas

I have tried to create construction battallions attached to Fortified Zones as the Soviet, but apparently I cannot do that. It seems I cannot assign any support units at all to my FZs. Shouldn't that be possible? It would seem eminently realistic that STAVKA sent lots of labor to hasten the construction of fortifications in some area.


quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

I have definitely assigned arty SUs to FZs, have not tried construction units.


You can, indeed, assign construction units to Fortified Zones. You simply need to have them upstream in the chain of command, and pull them into the unit, like any other SU attachment. See the attached screenshot.

I don't believe that you can make the assignments on the turn of creation, however, and I'm not sure what the coding reason is for this. It might have to do with them being in depleted state, or something else entirely. In subsequent turns though, you shouldn't have any problem getting construction or engineering SUs to attach, provided they exist in the proper places.




Attachment (1)

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RE: Sappers and Engineers - 2/11/2012 6:21:20 PM   
Tarhunnas


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JAMiAM


quote:

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas

I have tried to create construction battallions attached to Fortified Zones as the Soviet, but apparently I cannot do that. It seems I cannot assign any support units at all to my FZs. Shouldn't that be possible? It would seem eminently realistic that STAVKA sent lots of labor to hasten the construction of fortifications in some area.


quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

I have definitely assigned arty SUs to FZs, have not tried construction units.


You can, indeed, assign construction units to Fortified Zones. You simply need to have them upstream in the chain of command, and pull them into the unit, like any other SU attachment. See the attached screenshot.

I don't believe that you can make the assignments on the turn of creation, however, and I'm not sure what the coding reason is for this. It might have to do with them being in depleted state, or something else entirely. In subsequent turns though, you shouldn't have any problem getting construction or engineering SUs to attach, provided they exist in the proper places.



Thanks for the answer! I created some at STAVKA, so I will probably be able to assign them next turn then.

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41Ger
41Sov
41Ger
42Ger
42Sov

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RE: Sappers and Engineers - 2/12/2012 4:50:56 PM   
Farfarer

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

Must be nice to be able to build all the engineer units you want. I would love to have the ability to build support units. Or to have any control over the composition of my army.



I would be happy to be merely able to recombine the split up SU's like flak and werfers.

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RE: Sappers and Engineers - 2/12/2012 10:06:16 PM   
Hermann

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas

I have tried to create construction battallions attached to Fortified Zones as the Soviet, but apparently I cannot do that. It seems I cannot assign any support units at all to my FZs. Shouldn't that be possible? It would seem eminently realistic that STAVKA sent lots of labor to hasten the construction of fortifications in some area.


send an hq with a few const units attached and put the fz under the hq - seems easy to me

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Post #: 9
RE: Sappers and Engineers - 2/13/2012 9:38:53 AM   
delatbabel


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My recommendation to gain the maximum utility out of your fortified regions is to:

* Put the FR under a nearby (5 hexes or closer) HQ rather than Stavka.
* Build some RR construction brigades and some sapper regiments in the HQ.
* On a subsequent turn transfer the sapper regiments to the FRs, one per FR.
* Let the RR brigades do their thing.

You'll get the utility of the "go anywhere" RR brigades as well as the must-have-it-here function of the sappers to get the best fort construction.

Don't assign any artillery to the FRs. By the time the enemy get that close you want to be disbanding them anyway. If the FR has to retreat then it will surrender and any attached SUs surrender with it. Whatever you do don't start doing silly things like assigning tank regiments to FRs, that's just asking for trouble.

It's safe to disband a FR without reassigning the sappers away from it. The sappers will immediately reappear in the upstream HQ.


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RE: Sappers and Engineers - 2/13/2012 1:50:03 PM   
Flaviusx


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Imo FRs should never be viewed as diggers in thesmselves. They exist for two reasons: to enable other units to dig past level 2, and to prevent for decay. Loading them up with engineering assets isn't cost effective from a manpower or AP standpoint. Use divisions as diggers, and back those up with assets attached to HQs.

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RE: Sappers and Engineers - 2/14/2012 2:22:23 AM   
Farfarer

 

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It may sound convoluted, but I send my newly created low exp low morale units to assist my deep forts in digging while they improve their stats before combat. I could leave them all with STAVKA, but I am unsure of the range all the time. Later, when I have Corps available, I can tranfer the Fort to an HQ cheaply, disband it ( leaving a brigade or something behind if I wish to prevent decay), and those experienced SUs are available for distribution next turn.
With STAVKA now infinite, this may be less worth it.

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RE: Sappers and Engineers - 2/15/2012 3:27:13 PM   
delatbabel


Posts: 1246
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From: Sydney, Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Imo FRs should never be viewed as diggers in thesmselves. They exist for two reasons: to enable other units to dig past level 2, and to prevent for decay. Loading them up with engineering assets isn't cost effective from a manpower or AP standpoint. Use divisions as diggers, and back those up with assets attached to HQs.


With respect I disagree. A FR with 2 attached sapper regiments digs faster than a division, and is cheaper in terms of APs. Manpower costs are irrelevant for the Soviets.


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RE: Sappers and Engineers - 2/15/2012 3:31:38 PM   
Flaviusx


Posts: 6415
Joined: 9/9/2009
From: Southern California
Status: online
This is a 10 point AP investment. Not cheap. 11 points if you have to disband the fort.

There is only one place I'm willing to do this, and that's by (and on) Osinovets. And only because crossing the Neva is a do or die proposition. (Mostly die, but every turn you delay it is one less turn Moscow has to deal with PG4.)

I have found the results of this disappointing thus far, too. I've done better grabbing divisions with 40+ construction values and backing them up with engineers from Northern Front.



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