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locked up? - 2/8/2012 8:40:43 PM   
phoenix

 

Posts: 974
Joined: 9/28/2010
Status: online 		Has the locked up bug been fixed, really? I mean the one where units just paused for a long while, doing nothing.

I've ran, abortively (for this very reason) From the Meuse to the Rhine 4 times now and each time I'm frustrated because the brit para units I task with taking the arnhem bridges just sieze up somewhere around osterbeck. They're not fighting. They're not, as far as I can see, doing anything. The indicators say they're moving AND dug in. I've no idea why they might be dug in when I've really flagged up the urgency of taking this bridge whatever the consequences. If they were hit by arty and I didn't notice, do the consequences really last so long? Without a rout or even a retreat? In the snap below 2 para are the worst. JOhn Frost would shudder. They've just stopped. They've been stopped like that for about three hours now. Is this a bug?




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< Message edited by phoenix -- 2/8/2012 9:35:33 PM >
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RE: locked up? - 2/8/2012 8:48:47 PM   
phoenix

 

Posts: 974
Joined: 9/28/2010
Status: online 		I just checked my saves and 2 para, for example, stopped moving at around 16.22. It's 19.00 in the above pic. There was no graphic (or message) to indicate arty. It seems repeatable, from the save. They just halt. I can send a save to anyone interested, if you let me know where to send it to.

< Message edited by phoenix -- 2/8/2012 9:36:04 PM >

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RE: locked up? - 2/8/2012 9:00:57 PM   
nate25


Posts: 1239
Joined: 9/20/2011
From: Middletown Ohio
Status: offline 		phoenix,

FWIW, I have better luck in this scenario detaching individual bns. and then re-attaching them to brigade when all are close to their objective.

I feel your pain. Don't know why this is like this in this scenario. My rule of thumb is to take objectives with regt./bgde. size units.

Thanks,
Nate

(in reply to phoenix)
Post #: 3
RE: locked up? - 2/8/2012 9:31:49 PM   
phoenix

 

Posts: 974
Joined: 9/28/2010
Status: online 		Thanks Nate. All my orders are at Bn level, unless I detatch companies for something specific for a while. In this case, 2 Para Bn has the order. I never give orders higher than this as, for me at least, this just means the Regiment spends ages processing the orders and nothing gets done for too long. At least this way 2 Para started on the mission. Then just stopped. In this forum, and from Panther people, the recommendation has always been, I think, to give orders at roughly Bn level.

i'll try that though. I'll try reattaching 2 para to brigade and giving brigade the order. My guess is there will be a lot of replanning followed by long orders delays, then long re-orgs.....

< Message edited by phoenix -- 2/8/2012 9:34:11 PM >

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Post #: 4
RE: locked up? - 2/8/2012 9:41:09 PM   
phoenix

 

Posts: 974
Joined: 9/28/2010
Status: online 		Happened as expected. No joy with that, Nate.

Anyway, they shouldn't be just stuck there. Or if they are, I should know why?

Does anyone (Dave?) want a save from around 1600. You can run it through from there on full speed and watch 2 para doing nothing for a few hours (at least that's what happens every time I run the save).

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Post #: 5
RE: locked up? - 2/8/2012 10:10:12 PM   
RockinHarry


Posts: 2947
Joined: 1/18/2001
From: Germany
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: phoenix

Has the locked up bug been fixed, really? I mean the one where units just paused for a long while, doing nothing.

I've ran, abortively (for this very reason) From the Meuse to the Rhine 4 times now and each time I'm frustrated because the brit para units I task with taking the arnhem bridges just sieze up somewhere around osterbeck. They're not fighting. They're not, as far as I can see, doing anything. The indicators say they're moving AND dug in. I've no idea why they might be dug in when I've really flagged up the urgency of taking this bridge whatever the consequences. If they were hit by arty and I didn't notice, do the consequences really last so long? Without a rout or even a retreat? In the snap below 2 para are the worst. JOhn Frost would shudder. They've just stopped. They've been stopped like that for about three hours now. Is this a bug?





Quick evaluation of what I see in the screeny:

The 2nd para Bn route appears close enough to the german 9/KRA zone of influence, that movement along this route is blocked or greatly hindered. With given "defend" task at (on top) Arnhem bridge it might also be problematic for the AI to solve a final deployment zone for all Bn components, as it might end up in a north- and south of rhine river part. An intermediate waypoint added at the crossing of the N-S railroad with the W-E road also might have helped to plot a route closer to the rhine river and away from german 9/KRA.

I havent´t found time to try this scenario yet, but I´d likely try a move with attacks ticked, to just north of the Arnhem bridge. Maybe not even attacks ticked, but with low aggro, fast speed and a suitable pathing option (avoidance?). Route should stick as close to the rhine river as possible.

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RE: locked up? - 2/8/2012 10:14:36 PM   
Arjuna


Posts: 16504
Joined: 3/31/2003
From: Canberra, Australia
Status: offline 		phoenix,

Send me the save from both before they locked up and after. I'll check it out. Send to "support[at]panthergames[dot]com".

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www.panthergames.com

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Post #: 7
RE: locked up? - 2/8/2012 10:36:03 PM   
wodin


Posts: 6504
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: England
Status: online 		What maybe better than posting on here when it's something like this is just send the save with an explanation to Dave. Thing is only Dave can give an opinion or fix the issue (sending it to Dave is helping everyone especially if it's a bug) so posting here it may get lost or overlooked by the one person who can help.

Or post in the Tech part of the forum.

Just a thought and I don't want to sound like a pain in the backside. It's just important Dave gets to see it, everyone else seeing it doesn't matter either way.

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Post #: 8
RE: locked up? - 2/8/2012 11:04:59 PM   
Arjuna


Posts: 16504
Joined: 3/31/2003
From: Canberra, Australia
Status: offline 		Yep that's why I have just moved this thread to the Tech Support subForum. I always check this forum every work day.

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www.panthergames.com

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Post #: 9
RE: locked up? - 2/9/2012 8:17:12 AM   
phoenix

 

Posts: 974
Joined: 9/28/2010
Status: online 		Thanks Dave. I'm sure it's me and something I'm doing, of course....

Interesting, Harry, that you think the AI might have got confused between north and south of river choices. You can see its planned route, however, which lies along the north. I wouldn't think 9/KRA should hold it up for that long. Worst option might be long enough to plan a reroute south of the threat. I had avoidance on, I think.


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Post #: 10
RE: locked up? - 2/9/2012 8:37:58 AM   
phoenix

 

Posts: 974
Joined: 9/28/2010
Status: online 		Mmm, just started with an earlier save and analysed it a bit more. Maybe I won't send through yet, Dave.

This is what happened, I think (assuming it roughly happened this way on original run-through).
1. 2 Para, with the 3 indep para companies attached, is given a route with waypoints nth of the river and told to sieze Arnhem road bridge, everything max, fastest, quickest, no rest, attacks and bypass clicked. Around 2pm it starts off and makes good progress to where it is stalled in the above pic.
2. It stalls, as RH surmised, because the lead element - 2.21 IPC - runs into 9/KRA. 2.21 and the C.2 para then get hit by arty (the lead elements). This is about 3pm. No doubt it doesn't help that I've got 'attacks' checked and aggro set to max.....
3. Everything stops for about 45 minutes. I get twitchy waiting for 2 para to re-route (doesn't 'bypass' achieve that? - not with attacks and full aggro, maybe.....) and so change its orders. I click 'avoidance' and uncheck 'attacks' (I'm trying to get it to re-route and go round 9/KRA). Nothing happens within another 45 mins or so, so I issue the sieze bridge order all over again, with avoidance and bypass, norm aggro. I don't give a route. I'm just shouting at Frost, really. This is at about 4.30.
4. The result? Frost is still stuck there at 7pm.

So it's a bit confused - multiple impatient responses from me. However, there is a good two and a half hours between my last order and the pic above, with nothing happening. That said, I haven't specified a route, and have changed quite a few parametres, so maybe the AI is doing all its planning again. A RL subordinate wouldn't, I assume, do this (don't know - maybe they would?), but maybe RH was right that I've managed to confuse the AI. How long should the delay be, I wonder, in thse circs?

So I'll try it all again and try to keep my temper before sending anything through for Dave to pour over.

Thanks.

< Message edited by phoenix -- 2/9/2012 9:10:51 AM >

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Post #: 11
RE: locked up? - 2/9/2012 3:09:01 PM   
GBS

 

Posts: 648
Joined: 7/3/2002
From: Southeastern USA
Status: offline 		I'm real interested to see the explanation here.

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Post #: 12
RE: locked up? - 2/9/2012 3:16:38 PM   
phoenix

 

Posts: 974
Joined: 9/28/2010
Status: online 		Well, like I said, GBS, I decided not to send the saves through, because I did so many confusing things prior to the lock up that it's possible all that is happening is 2 Para is reacting to too many orders etc. I don't know. But I'm playing the scenario again, and if it happens again I will action it.

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Post #: 13
RE: locked up? - 2/9/2012 4:00:31 PM   
nate25


Posts: 1239
Joined: 9/20/2011
From: Middletown Ohio
Status: offline 		phoenix,

I have to use the little bit of arty we get almost constantly to try and dislodge stubborn units. The two batteries of 75s, company mortars, all of it.

You've probably already done this, just thought I'd mention it.

Thanks,
Nate

(in reply to phoenix)
Post #: 14
RE: locked up? - 2/9/2012 4:39:29 PM   
phoenix

 

Posts: 974
Joined: 9/28/2010
Status: online 		Well, here we go again. This time I will send you 2 saves, Dave, because I just need to know what is going on.

2 para again. This run they got through a bit further, right up to the dreaded bottleneck. In reality, historically, they held the north end of the bridge by dusk. I'm sending them roughly the same route as they used historically, all along the Rhine, this time with aggro low, and bypass only checked. At the bottleneck they lost an entire company (that's the little cross there in the pic). They went into siezure mode, no probs with that, and retreated. So I decided they wouldn't get through the bottleneck and since I've got the rail bridge I thought I'd send them round that way. So I order them to pull back to the rail bridge and across it. You can see from the log that they got these orders at 21.46pm. In the pic it's now half after midnight. They haven't pulled back yet. But the log shows they were bombarded a bit etc. Fair enough?




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< Message edited by phoenix -- 2/9/2012 4:41:17 PM >

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RE: locked up? - 2/9/2012 4:44:03 PM   
phoenix

 

Posts: 974
Joined: 9/28/2010
Status: online 		Their sidebar looks like this;

(Not very fatigued - no probs, really)




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Post #: 16
RE: locked up? - 2/9/2012 4:46:18 PM   
phoenix

 

Posts: 974
Joined: 9/28/2010
Status: online 		Move on a bit and see how good they are at following orders;

It's now 4.35 in the morning.....




They've done nothing. Well, virtually nothing. They've had the order for over 6 hours and there they are still up there. As far as I can see the only thing that happened was one bombardment a while back. What's going on?

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< Message edited by phoenix -- 2/9/2012 4:51:48 PM >

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Post #: 17
RE: locked up? - 2/9/2012 4:49:00 PM   
phoenix

 

Posts: 974
Joined: 9/28/2010
Status: online 		A couple of minutes before that snap their log looked like this, below;

What have they been up to? Halting. I would like to know why. That's all. I'm sure there's a good reason, But what is it?




Would you like saves for this, Dave? Or do you think it's all understandable? Don't want to waste your time if it all looks fine to you.

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< Message edited by phoenix -- 2/9/2012 4:52:51 PM >

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RE: locked up? - 2/9/2012 6:16:12 PM   
simovitch


Posts: 3898
Joined: 2/14/2006
Status: offline 		I have a question - why are you dragging along those AT guns with the assault companies? I would leave them and possibly even the mortars back in your security area until you need them.

You are ordering your battalion to maneuver into unknown enemy territory and secure a distant objective. This is a job for your assault companies not bulky AT guns and mortars.

This may help.

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simovitch


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Post #: 19
RE: locked up? - 2/9/2012 6:40:55 PM   
phoenix

 

Posts: 974
Joined: 9/28/2010
Status: online 		Mmm. Thanks Richard. My question is - why is your AI dragging them along? I give the orders to the battallion. It brings them along. There's not an option for it to go light, but I don't like micromanaging it too much to force things. Nice to have them along when we get there, of course - if we ever get there. The Bn ought to be able to manage to make sure they're well in the rear for the advance, out of harm's way, now that they no longer lead the assaults..... If I don't bring them now then they'll never get through in the future, because the window for getting through to the bridge is closing all the time.

But anyway, even if that would help - what is 2 Para doing for all that time? Why is it halting when nothing at all (apparently) is going on? Are you suggesting it's halting because of the AT gun unit?

< Message edited by phoenix -- 2/9/2012 6:55:08 PM >

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RE: locked up? - 2/9/2012 8:53:57 PM   
GBS

 

Posts: 648
Joined: 7/3/2002
From: Southeastern USA
Status: offline 		Can't wait to see how this turns out. This behavior is one of the things that turn me off about a year age but since the patch and HTTR I haven't noticed it, until this. I haven't tried this scenario yet.

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RE: locked up? - 2/9/2012 9:11:17 PM   
simovitch


Posts: 3898
Joined: 2/14/2006
Status: offline 		phoenix, I'm not sure but I think the AT gun may have something to do with it. And I think it is a bit much to expect the AI to make the decision to detach the support companies to a higher command, especially if you are choosing to direct the Battalion in the field.

Maybe I'm a bit more lenient to this kind of delay happening than some people are. I doubt that real WW2 warfare is even remotely as tidy as these situations portray. If the lockup occurs without appropriate messaging for over 6 hours i would report it as a possible bug, otherwise I shake my fist at the screen wondering why things are not going the way the timetable says they should.

But I agree it would be nice to know WHY the UI is reporting the halting.

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RE: locked up? - 2/9/2012 9:30:43 PM   
phoenix

 

Posts: 974
Joined: 9/28/2010
Status: online 		Ok. I'll try it without the gun.

I used to have the same attitude to delays etc, but running the game slowly and playing the scenarios properly, and joining in the discussions in here does tend to encourage a bit of head scratching. I didn't report it as a bug, I just queried it - it was moved to here by Dave.

I've sent 3 saves to you now, Dave. Hope they land ok.

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Post #: 23
RE: locked up? - 2/9/2012 11:08:48 PM   
Arjuna


Posts: 16504
Joined: 3/31/2003
From: Canberra, Australia
Status: offline 		I've got them. Hopefully I can get to these early next week.

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RE: locked up? - 2/11/2012 5:35:39 PM   
nate25


Posts: 1239
Joined: 9/20/2011
From: Middletown Ohio
Status: offline 		All,

Could someone please send instructions on how to take a "screenie" from your game?

I'd like to display my progress in "From the Meuse to the Rhine.

I don't have issues getting downtown into Arnhem.

I think it would be relevant to this thread.

Thanks, in advance,
Nate

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Post #: 25
RE: locked up? - 2/11/2012 5:50:54 PM   
phoenix

 

Posts: 974
Joined: 9/28/2010
Status: online 		Press prnt screen, that saves it to the clipboard, then paste it into a program like Paint. Mess around with it (crop is very useful) then save it as a GIF, to make sure it's small enough to upload. That's what i do. Be keen to see your route into Arnhem.

I'm trying it again.... The troops go much faster without the guns, as Richard suggested, and so far no 'lock ups' (though I'm sure it wasn't a lock up and Arjuna will in due course enlighten me..), but I'm not going to get the bridge. It's dusk day 1 and the germans are flooding into Arnhem.

Probably you should post it starting a new thread in war reports or AARs, Nate, not here, as this is technical, bugs and stuf.

< Message edited by phoenix -- 2/11/2012 5:53:00 PM >

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Post #: 26
RE: locked up? - 2/11/2012 6:01:46 PM   
nate25


Posts: 1239
Joined: 9/20/2011
From: Middletown Ohio
Status: offline 		phoenix,

Thanks man. I'll try that. I'm not the most computer literate person.

I have to give orders at bn. level at a minimum, and orders to individual cos./plts. depending on how early Spindler shows up. It's a huge pain and time consuming, but it's the only way I have figured out to cut the bridge off.

I'd like to see your route into Nijmegen. I cannot get there! I've never been able to fight past the line Kapal - De Ploeg - Driehuizen.

Thanks,
Nate

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Post #: 27
RE: locked up? - 2/11/2012 6:14:41 PM   
phoenix

 

Posts: 974
Joined: 9/28/2010
Status: online 		I've a feeling that the timing on Arnhem might affect Nijmegan. So, I notice many Axis units crossing at Arnhem en route to Nijmegan. It may be that I'm getting in the vicinity of Arnhem Road bridge too quickly, and these units that were headed for Nijmegan then stop and fight me in Arnhem. That way I don't get near the Arnhem Road bridge, but there's less defence of Nijmegan.

All I've done to take Nijmegan is the most obvious orders. As and when each battallion of the 508 drop (they're the nearest - I'm playing on historical, everything standard, inc orders delay) I give each battallion orders to sieze the bridge, setting the sieze objective at the other side of the river, over the bridge. Then I leave the three battallions to do just that, which they have every run, so far. I click 'secure crossing' to do this, then set aggro to min (so they don't get distracted starting fights along the way), tick 'bypass', so they can reroute round the enemy, and 'none' for rest. I click 'quickest and fastest' in the route options. They take the bridge before midnight day 1. So far....

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Post #: 28
RE: locked up? - 2/24/2012 10:05:38 PM   
phoenix

 

Posts: 974
Joined: 9/28/2010
Status: online 		So, Dave. Any chance of you looking at the saves I sent you, as I'm still getting lots of fallow periods where units are doing nothing at all, it seems, though all indicators show them as doing something? Just wondering whether you think you will get time to look at this? It's especially noticeable, I think, playing the monster scenario - From the Rhine to the Meuse - and so irritating (in default of an explanation) that I've stopped playing that now and have sought out smaller scenarios instead. Thanks.

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Post #: 29
RE: locked up? - 2/24/2012 10:30:24 PM   
Arjuna


Posts: 16504
Joined: 3/31/2003
From: Canberra, Australia
Status: offline 		Sorry phoenix I haven't had time this week. Next week will be better. Thanks for reminding me.

_____________________________

Dave "Arjuna" O'Connor
www.panthergames.com

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