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RE: Will you keep playing after this patch?

 
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RE: Will you keep playing after this patch? - 2/11/2012 7:19:01 PM   
Joel Billings


Posts: 21538
Joined: 9/20/2000
From: Santa Rosa, CA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: AFV

In the days of cardboard, when SPI released WITE (in the mid-seventies), I wonder truly how well playtested it was? Who would have ever known? There were no forums to gripe about the balance. I guess if you even got past the first winter in the game (my brother and I played for hours on end but I really don't remember how far we got in the game) and had concerns, you could write SPI a letter and complain, and maybe a few did. Point is, for this WITE, while it may be true mistakes were made and the game released without proper play testing- I think we do not appreciate what we have. There is this vibrant community here that was able to point balance concerns out, and changes were made. And continue to be made.

If you don't remember cardboard, then likely you will read this and say "so what?".



I spent an entire summers playing SPI's WitE solitaire when it first came out. I then spent 4 months playing 3 nights a week with 5 players in a team game. Only after this did I discover in Moves magazine that there was a major rule change made that froze all on map Soviet production after 100 Soviet units had been eliminated. Our team had the Germans stopped cold in 1942 with much thanks to not knowing about the rule change (I'm still not sure how long it took SPI to make that rule change). Computer games are not the first games to not be able to get enough testing before release. If we waited until a game as big as WitE had been totally tested throughout by human players (as opposed to AI vs AI, which only can do so much), the game would still not be out, and it would never come out because we would have to find another source of income. I believe the game was fun and playable in 2010, just like WitE the boardgame was fun and playable in 1974. I wish we had the time to test it even more before release, but that was impossible given the resources and economics of the situation. Of course, even if we had more time, there would be disagreements about what the game should or shouldn't be, or how it should or shouldn't play out. We have tried to improve the game over the past year as we have learned more about the game, and we appreciate all of the feedback. Player skill is always a critical component in how games go, and we think we have some of the best game players playing War in the East, both among the testers and the general public. They keep pushing the game to its limits, as it should be.

_____________________________

All understanding comes after the fact.
-- Soren Kierkegaard

(in reply to AFV)
Post #: 121
RE: Will you keep playing after this patch? - 2/11/2012 8:54:18 PM   
Apollo11


Posts: 22595
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline
Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Baelfiin

Thats just rude to say the players are playing "wrong".



quote:

ORIGINAL: Baelfiin

Leo says that it is impossible to test everything 100 percent and I agree. There is so much going on in WITE that nobody can KNOW the optimum move at every step in the game. Every die roll can make a little differance that adds up to every game, every turn is a little different from any other. That is the strength of this game. Seeing so many people say "well guys im not playing anymore" saddens me. Telling them that their concerns about the game are not warranted, because they don't play "right", is rude to the point of arrogance, and I just plain don't like it.



quote:

ORIGINAL: RCH

Then the bias of the play testers and the design of the game should be examined.

The game should never had been released with the original blizzard. It was completely unhistorical and severe in the extreme. That is when all the first AAR's ended. Right then and there. What was told to the players was that they were not playing the game right. However hard that is to fathom. To be smashed up in 4 to 12 turns and that was put on Axis play and not game design. How could play testers play through that first blizzard and sign off on it? That is not player problem, but designer and tester problems. Eventually finally the blizzard was changed. Even now I don't think the 41 blizzard is modeled properly.


I think that some of you guys misunderstood me...


It is absolutely great to see so many people playing WitE and enjoying it - this is what matters and this is what is most important!


But at the same time it is always important to remember that WitE is very very complex game / simulations that have huge map and large number of units (i.e. counters) to play with!

Please note that UV / WitP / WitP-AE are now 10 years on the market (UV was released almost 10 years ago ) and the latest incarnation, the WitP-AE, is still patched and modified!!!

And players are still learning it - just go and see WitP-AE forum - there are still questions about game engine, tactics and strategies...

So... if game engine that is present for 10 years is still alive and players are still learning it (even players who play it for years) it is no surprise to have similar situation in WitE that is available for just 1 year!


Therefore my statement is no rude or arrogant - it is just plain truth because of the steep learning curve and myriad of various possibilities - players are still learning the game!


One other thing to consider - war is not balanced - almost no combat is!

Therefore it is equally hard to balance game / simulation vs. history...


BTW if we "grade" players from 0/1 to 10 (with 10 being "Grandmaster" and 0/1 being "Newbie") how do we "balance" the game / simulation?

Should we balance it for players with "grade" 3? 5? 7? 9?


Leo "Apollo11"


P.S.
At the end, without being rude or arrogant in the slightest way, I can tell you that in ALPHA / BETA team we have "Grandmasters" of WitE. For them even the original Blizzard and 1:1->2:1 was not the problem because they learned how to "counter" it and live with it!


_____________________________



Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

(in reply to Baelfiin)
Post #: 122
RE: Will you keep playing after this patch? - 2/11/2012 10:03:52 PM   
Marquo


Posts: 1350
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"At the end, without being rude or arrogant in the slightest way, I can tell you that in ALPHA / BETA team we have "Grandmasters" of WitE. For them even the original Blizzard and 1:1->2:1 was not the problem because they learned how to "counter" it and live with it!"

And for me this is an issue, and not an insignificant one. I seem to have more faith in the development team than some others, and I spent much time trying to learn how to play the original version out of the box. Then it seems like some vocal, frustrated newbies captured the attention of the development team, and the game was changed. It takes years to learn how to play chess, and newbies have no right to scream that pigs are flying so the rules must change. Newbies should put their noses to the grindstone and learn how to play. Why change things so much if the team has/had confidence that players could become "Grandmasters?"

Anyway, I am somewhat frustrated because I have yet to finish a whole campaign, and some of the patches have profound effects on games in progress. And it makes no sense not to patch up because one will not get a sense of how to play the next time one starts. Joel opined after the entire WITE community was "peltonized" and the 1:1 --> 2:1 change occured, "Becareful what you wish for."

Now I am patched up to 1.06X, and the deficit of APs is ridiculous; I spent hours tuning all of my fronts/armies to the proper level, and in the time it took to patch up, well, disaster. "Do not patch UP," some would say; but then I will not have a good feel for how things will be the next time around.

Anyway, the game is alot of fun, and what more could one ask for?

Marquo


(in reply to Apollo11)
Post #: 123
RE: Will you keep playing after this patch? - 2/11/2012 10:20:51 PM   
Baelfiin

 

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Leo: sorry man we must be speaking orange and green 8(

Marqo: Joel is working on a fix to reduce some of the ap pain for ongoing games

_____________________________

"We are going to attack all night, and attack tomorrow morning..... If we are not victorious, let no one come back alive!" -- Patton
WITE-Beta
WITW-Alpha

(in reply to Marquo)
Post #: 124
RE: Will you keep playing after this patch? - 2/11/2012 10:25:58 PM   
RCH


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I learned to play the first blizzard also. You cause as many casualties as possible and then you prepare in places and run some in others. I like and can play a hair string defense. Properly playing a hair string defense is very gratifying. My point as that its severity isn't historical. Bad yes, but the game had it way over the top. I recently learned that the Germans were able to cut off a Soviet spearhead and destroy it in the 41 blizzard. That is not possible even with the current more mild blizzard.

Why was it changed then? Is it because there are players who cannot play a shoe string defense as well as what was required in the first blizzard? That first blizzard could be an emotional drain. I am not saying that it couldn't be done I am saying that I do not see it as historical.

This new rule #1:

1. New Rule - During any Snow turns between December 1941 and April 1942 (inclusive), and any blizzard turns in March or April 1942, German attack CV factors are divided by 1.5. Any missed check (admin or combat skill) causes the attack CV to be further divided by 2. The displayed on counter attack CV will be divided by 1.5 during these turns.

Is a bad rule in so many ways. The numbers are just being manipulated to get desired results and the real issues are not addressed. One reason is that the Soviet player can now attack in every blizzard turn without any fear of repercussions. At least after 3 months of being kicked around the Axis could get some push back and fix their lines with snow turns. Not now.

I am presently finishing up a game and as soon as its over....well...

(in reply to Marquo)
Post #: 125
RE: Will you keep playing after this patch? - 2/11/2012 10:32:18 PM   
Joel Billings


Posts: 21538
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From: Santa Rosa, CA
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I do not see the German CV penalties in March keeping a German player from doing limited attacks in snow. It is meant to prevent the ability to do a major counteroffensive when the logistics system would not allow it. It is a quick fix to what otherwise would be a very complicated problem to solve without major rework of the logistics system, something that is not possible until WitW and WitE 2 down the road.

_____________________________

All understanding comes after the fact.
-- Soren Kierkegaard

(in reply to RCH)
Post #: 126
RE: Will you keep playing after this patch? - 2/11/2012 10:34:30 PM   
randallw

 

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Just wait for the next patch, which will decrease the Axis attack penalty ( i'm guessing ).

(in reply to RCH)
Post #: 127
RE: Will you keep playing after this patch? - 2/11/2012 10:39:32 PM   
RCH


Posts: 226
Joined: 1/19/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

I do not see the German CV penalties in March keeping a German player from doing limited attacks in snow. It is meant to prevent the ability to do a major counteroffensive when the logistics system would not allow it. It is a quick fix to what otherwise would be a very complicated problem to solve without major rework of the logistics system, something that is not possible until WitW and WitE 2 down the road.



Maybe my observation will prove wrong. It is an assumption with no data to back it up. It shouldn't take too long to see what the effects are.

(in reply to Joel Billings)
Post #: 128
RE: Will you keep playing after this patch? - 2/11/2012 10:45:29 PM   
Flaviusx


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Joel, looking down the line for WitE2 I think MechFo had some very interesting ideas about how to tweak this blizzard business. We ought to keep those in mind once the logistical system gets a revamp.

_____________________________

WitE Alpha Tester

(in reply to RCH)
Post #: 129
RE: Will you keep playing after this patch? - 2/12/2012 2:51:26 PM   
Marquo


Posts: 1350
Joined: 9/26/2000
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"I recently learned that the Germans were able to cut off a Soviet spearhead and destroy it in the 41 blizzard. That is not possible even with the current more mild blizzard."

This is not my experience; I have cut off Soviet armor and other unts and have killed them, wiped off the map during the blizzard. Sometimes you can lure an overly ambitious Ivan into a trap and do this; I have done it. And, I am nothing special, just cautious...

Marquo

(in reply to Flaviusx)
Post #: 130
RE: Will you keep playing after this patch? - 2/12/2012 3:45:21 PM   
Tophat1812

 

Posts: 1633
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Big question I'd like to know who "actually" is going to not play after the patch? I am not talking about taking a break from a very good but complex game that requires a serious time investment. So who is ready to uninstall and use the disc for a coaster? As for myself I'll be playing this for years yet,just like WiTp or since its release WiTp-AE.

(in reply to Marquo)
Post #: 131
RE: Will you keep playing after this patch? - 2/12/2012 3:51:18 PM   
heliodorus04


Posts: 1404
Joined: 11/1/2008
From: Denver Colorado
Status: offline
While I know I'm blocked by a wide variety of people who don't want to hear what I have to say, this is what I have to say.

I've yet to see any patches really deal with the root problem of the game, which is that it's combat models are so over-specified that unit experience, supply, and fatigue bear less impact on the game than the artifice of national morale. It is a game where mortars out-perform 155mm artillery, and where every combat element rushes headlong to 50-meter range as fast as it can.

It is a game where everyone knows to put Model in charge of 18.Army to take Leningrad, where Germany can fly hundreds of recon missions a turn without impact fuel levels elsewhere in their national economy. It is a game where Soviets can skip inefficient OOB corps and use the superior brigades and divisions to better effect until the best of the OOBs are achieved by fiat.

It is a game where the Admin impact of moving German divisions from Army (reserve) to Corps would make it impossible for a division like Totenkopf to do what it did historically (something like 5 changes of Army Korps/Army in 4 weeks in France, and 3 changes in the Barbarossa campaign alone (sources available).

It is a game where 1500 guys with 5 tanks can slow down an entire panzer corps (stacked) for a week and live to fight just as efficiently next week.

Ultimately it is a game without a robust victory conditions parameter such that even if Germany wins, it was a painful bore to play because the whole game, you were fixed in place by rules that limit your options. The Soviet is never really challenged because of German tethers that rob Germany of the ability to do anything with their successes, while the Soviet is free to experiment knowing that pretty much whatever he did in 1941/1942 would not impact the long-term prospects of victory in 1944/45 earlier than historical (and with fewer casualties).

I represent the ex-patriot WitE German player. I have an e-mail box full of people who wanted me to keep making my points, including beta testers who tried to stop the travesty of Soviet invincibility from making its way to the final product, and quit beta testing when they were dismissed as not understanding the design philosophy behind the game.

Well, here is what I believe is the WitE design philosophy:
The game is designed for people who enjoy playing a simulated Eastern Front campaign from the Soviet side. It's not too difficult, it's not too complicated, and it doesn't require a whole lot of attention to detail of the finer mechanics of the poorly modeled combat and production systems. The community is comprised MOSTLY of the kinds of players who find that gameplay enjoyable.

When someone threatens the status quo, the community of Sovi-o-philes first gently, then angrily attempts to suppress discussion.

I am telling my ex-pats to go play Combat Mission (even the old version, which is a great bargain), or use Vassal to play World in Flames or the Europa series on your computer (check out Vassal to play all your old favorite cardboard counter games).

I have no intention of purchasing the WitW title. When at my local hobby store, online at The Wargamer, or elsewhere, I make it a point to tell people that my experience with War in the East has taught me to avoid Matrix's products in the future..

I'm disappointed in the game, I am disappointed in the company, and I am disappointed in the community. This is a game where Germany has no chance at improving on its historical performance.


(in reply to Marquo)
Post #: 132
RE: Will you keep playing after this patch? - 2/12/2012 4:01:07 PM   
76mm


Posts: 2133
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From: Moscow
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04
This is a game where Germany has no chance at improving on its historical performance.


eh? I think we're playing different games. I'm not sure when you played this game last, or if you read any AARs, but to say that since 1.05 (if not from the beginning) Germany has no chance at improving on its historical performance is rather funny.

(in reply to heliodorus04)
Post #: 133
RE: Will you keep playing after this patch? - 2/12/2012 4:43:54 PM   
entwood

 

Posts: 93
Joined: 7/22/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

I wish we had the time to test it even more before release, but that was impossible given the resources and economics of the situation. Of course, even if we had more time, there would be disagreements about what the game should or shouldn't be, or how it should or shouldn't play out. We have tried to improve the game over the past year as we have learned more about the game, and we appreciate all of the feedback. Player skill is always a critical component in how games go, and we think we have some of the best game players playing War in the East, both among the testers and the general public. They keep pushing the game to its limits, as it should be.


I still believe it is possible to please the majority of players by giving them what they want. In my opinion, it can be accomplished by maintaining the 'basic game', what we have now, so to speak, and add an 'advanced game' including more optional rules. There is nothing ground-breaking here, many wargames have such a scheme, but I generally dispute the notion of best game players to this extent.

As soon as I see Lvov pocket or other goofy gambits, on either side, pusillanimous fort building, air war things, and so on, that should not always be possible, or allowed, well then, I guess we do have the best game players, but it becomes inconsequential as that can be a 12 year old beating you at a Mario Brothers game as the Player Skill.

If development or patching could include an Advanced Game, something like an "Admirals Edition" for WIE, that added a bunch more risks and rewards, less predictability, less hard-code, politics, abstract things about the progress of the entire war, and the like, then you could have the best armchair generals who can actually react to changing battle conditions, fog of war, ebbs and flows of command and supply, and all sorts of things.

I do not disparage the game, but I can't see myself playing for a great deal of time with other players who will just turn the existing platform into mush. It is just to easy to push the game into places that are unsavory.

I really do appreciate the patching process and continued support. It is a fascinating game. It is a good game to be proud of. I just want it to be a great game, and would pay for an "Advanced Game" layer.




< Message edited by entwood -- 2/12/2012 4:53:32 PM >

(in reply to Joel Billings)
Post #: 134
RE: Will you keep playing after this patch? - 2/12/2012 5:34:22 PM   
Tophat1812

 

Posts: 1633
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04

While I know I'm blocked by a wide variety of people who don't want to hear what I have to say, this is what I have to say.

I've yet to see any patches really deal with the root problem of the game, which is that it's combat models are so over-specified that unit experience, supply, and fatigue bear less impact on the game than the artifice of national morale. It is a game where mortars out-perform 155mm artillery, and where every combat element rushes headlong to 50-meter range as fast as it can.

It is a game where everyone knows to put Model in charge of 18.Army to take Leningrad, where Germany can fly hundreds of recon missions a turn without impact fuel levels elsewhere in their national economy. It is a game where Soviets can skip inefficient OOB corps and use the superior brigades and divisions to better effect until the best of the OOBs are achieved by fiat.

It is a game where the Admin impact of moving German divisions from Army (reserve) to Corps would make it impossible for a division like Totenkopf to do what it did historically (something like 5 changes of Army Korps/Army in 4 weeks in France, and 3 changes in the Barbarossa campaign alone (sources available).

It is a game where 1500 guys with 5 tanks can slow down an entire panzer corps (stacked) for a week and live to fight just as efficiently next week.

Ultimately it is a game without a robust victory conditions parameter such that even if Germany wins, it was a painful bore to play because the whole game, you were fixed in place by rules that limit your options. The Soviet is never really challenged because of German tethers that rob Germany of the ability to do anything with their successes, while the Soviet is free to experiment knowing that pretty much whatever he did in 1941/1942 would not impact the long-term prospects of victory in 1944/45 earlier than historical (and with fewer casualties).

I represent the ex-patriot WitE German player. I have an e-mail box full of people who wanted me to keep making my points, including beta testers who tried to stop the travesty of Soviet invincibility from making its way to the final product, and quit beta testing when they were dismissed as not understanding the design philosophy behind the game.

Well, here is what I believe is the WitE design philosophy:
The game is designed for people who enjoy playing a simulated Eastern Front campaign from the Soviet side. It's not too difficult, it's not too complicated, and it doesn't require a whole lot of attention to detail of the finer mechanics of the poorly modeled combat and production systems. The community is comprised MOSTLY of the kinds of players who find that gameplay enjoyable.

When someone threatens the status quo, the community of Sovi-o-philes first gently, then angrily attempts to suppress discussion.

I am telling my ex-pats to go play Combat Mission (even the old version, which is a great bargain), or use Vassal to play World in Flames or the Europa series on your computer (check out Vassal to play all your old favorite cardboard counter games).

I have no intention of purchasing the WitW title. When at my local hobby store, online at The Wargamer, or elsewhere, I make it a point to tell people that my experience with War in the East has taught me to avoid Matrix's products in the future..

I'm disappointed in the game, I am disappointed in the company, and I am disappointed in the community. This is a game where Germany has no chance at improving on its historical performance.





Alright,this simply can't go unchallenged:

I own CM Normandy as well,I love the game but it too suffers from quirks and grognards dreaming of a more accurate representation of WWII combat. Just go and read the battleground forums and you can read first hand all about it. But it is a wonderful game and i play it often,its a great "tactical game".

WiTE is a strategic game and to compare it to combat mission is simply ridiculous to my mind. But that is a matter of personal choice/taste. I like multiple levels of the gaming experience from worrying about rifleman Malloy running out of grenades,my carriers not having any more torpedoes for my torpedo bombers or can I take Moscow before mud stops me.

WiTE,WiTp-AE and CM Normandy are all very different games that satisfy very different interests at least concerning myself.

That point out of the way the I have lost all faith in matrix-games line just rankles me. I wouldn't have invested in so many of their games if I didn't think they delivered quality products.

The I'm disappointed in the game,company and community line just set me off...sorry for the what will probably be taken as a matrix fanboy rant from some of you. Just an old wargamer fed up with the all too frequent these days over the top complaining. The only good thing is that this rather annoying trait seems to not simply be confined to U.S citizens.

(in reply to heliodorus04)
Post #: 135
RE: Will you keep playing after this patch? - 2/12/2012 6:54:13 PM   
Marquo


Posts: 1350
Joined: 9/26/2000
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04

I represent the ex-patriot WitE German player. I have an e-mail box full of people who wanted me to keep making my points, including beta testers who tried to stop the travesty of Soviet invincibility from making its way to the final product, and quit beta testing when they were dismissed as not understanding the design philosophy behind the game.

Well, here is what I believe is the WitE design philosophy:
The game is designed for people who enjoy playing a simulated Eastern Front campaign from the Soviet side. It's not too difficult, it's not too complicated, and it doesn't require a whole lot of attention to detail of the finer mechanics of the poorly modeled combat and production systems. The community is comprised MOSTLY of the kinds of players who find that gameplay enjoyable.

When someone threatens the status quo, the community of Sovi-o-philes first gently, then angrily attempts to suppress discussion.

I'm disappointed in the game, I am disappointed in the company, and I am disappointed in the community. This is a game where Germany has no chance at improving on its historical performance.




You are so full of yourself that it almost humerous; a self-appointed, arrogant pundit who spews venom with every post. Since you are no longer playing, why don't you just disppear leave us pathetic mortals alone?


(in reply to heliodorus04)
Post #: 136
RE: Will you keep playing after this patch? - 2/12/2012 6:59:54 PM   
janh

 

Posts: 1226
Joined: 6/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04

...

I'm disappointed in the game, I am disappointed in the company, and I am disappointed in the community. This is a game where Germany has no chance at improving on its historical performance.


That's perfectly evident from the large majority of AARs... or isn't it? Granted, there is none that started out under the latest beta patch, but numerous others to consider.

Obviously all Soviet players reach Berlin long before spring of 45, and hardly anybody is delayed by the Axis resistance significantly? In fact, no Soviet player has even had a hard time getting into Germany by summer or autumn 45? On the other hand, apparently the Germans never reach Moscow in a single game by winter 1941, not even to think of anyone having even taken it? Or Rostov? And Leningrad, it has never be taken, even despite the Wehrmacht's hand not being restrained byany Hitler intervention? And in 1942, no offensives are possible for the Wehrmacht anymore because the Soviets are really tough nuts to crack? From the outset of GC, aren't they continuously counterattacking and putting the Axis plans and schedules totally off? As if the German units were mere nuissances?

Hmmh, or is it rather the opposite of what I just described? Well, as far as I have played this game, followed a few AARs in detail and read the discussions, there is as much space for improvement of Axis performance as there is for the Soviets. But the improvements happen in different ways, particularly benefiting from hindsight -- and the lack of FOW on say-- leader stats etc.-- that allow some neat "optimizations of chances" to happen. Which in turn helps with things like storming Leningrad or rushing on towards Moscow by early October. If routinely taking these are not huge improvements for the Germans...

< Message edited by janh -- 2/12/2012 7:07:45 PM >

(in reply to heliodorus04)
Post #: 137
RE: Will you keep playing after this patch? - 2/12/2012 7:10:38 PM   
heliodorus04


Posts: 1404
Joined: 11/1/2008
From: Denver Colorado
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm


quote:

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04
This is a game where Germany has no chance at improving on its historical performance.


eh? I think we're playing different games. I'm not sure when you played this game last, or if you read any AARs, but to say that since 1.05 (if not from the beginning) Germany has no chance at improving on its historical performance is rather funny.

When last I played a few months ago, the only exceptional performance seen by Germany (Lvov pocket and the first 6 turns excepted) were the result of the 1942 weather changes and the over-aggressive morale nerf to the 1942 Soviet. Those are now adjusted in the Soviet's favor (which is to say is probably more historically realistic).

I don't know of a single AAR in which Germany outperforms history through to 1945, though I haven't read AARs in a long time, having given up any hope of extracting fun playing Germany myself over the super-brigades and Soviet admin superiority. The super-brigades problem just got much, much worse. Frankly, to me the game will never play accurately while the Soviets can field brigades that by themselves can effectively delay panzer corps. Soviets should not be allowed to field brigades on the map, but only as SUs.

The Admin Superiority issue is only half-handled by the CP reduction; Soviets were brought down in line with history. Germany still has nowhere near the administrative organizational capability it had historically. Germany continues to be railed to the historic 'glide slope' (see below).

I've been re-reading some Barbarossa divisional accounts (particularly Totenkopf by Charles Trang - there's a gratutious 'I read history books too' reference for those who find them necessary) and it's rather amazing how easily the Germans switched divisions from Korps to Army, and in between korps as necessary. This superiority is what cost France the war in 1940. Indeed, the whole point of having korps-level commands was for operational flexibility, and for units to go from front to reserve, and to be moved between korps when logistical distances between commands required it.

But today, in WITE still the Soviet has a greater ability to move divisional sized units between commands than Germany... AND has thusly to spend fewer AP on leadership changes, since it's often more cost effective to move 10 divisions (5 into your good leadership Army HQ, and 5 out into a reserve Army HQ for passive refit), costing about 10 AP, than it is to switch commanders (and it is more operationally useful in game terms to move fresh divisions in with a good commander than to move fresh divisions into combat with a mediocre commander).

The Soviets get still too much for free and/or without strategic tradeoff (to give two examples: 1) no need to move heavy industry, vehicle, etc. factories, and no reduction in Soviet rail capacity to make up for this advantage that only hindsight gives to WitE Soviet commanders; 2) No need to build the inferior 42a and 42b Rifle Corps because those formations are inefficient compared to divisions in the same time period, and even when seeing Soviets play this way, there is no adjustment to Soviet AP (downward) to make up for this efficiency gain that only historical hindsight gives to WitE Soviet commanders.

Meanwhile, Germany had too much advantage when Blizzard changed to Snow, and that's nipped in the bud. Can't have Germany doing TOO well... threatens Soviets for some reason... (nevertheless, this is a good change for realism, but Sovi-o-philes only advocate realism when it benefits them/hurts Germany, and not vice versa - see above).

Meanwhile, Germany had some advantages in its logistics network, and that is adjusted downward. Can't have Germany doing TOO well... threatens Soviets for some reason... (this is a bad change for the game)

Over and over and over again, the Soviets get to keep the advantages of hindsight with no downward adjustment of strategic capabilities resulting in a Soviet Army in 1942/43 that STAVKA would have literally ejaculated to possess.

Against which, no matter how well Germany survives the winter of 41/42, it's national morale is going to take a significant hit that accelerates regression to the mean, immediately and without question, in January 1942.

Germany must always withdraw HQs and critical divisions by specific name, often stripping the German player of units that through no fault of his own (lucky die rolls) became the center-pieces of his ability to convert terrain quickly and maintain a 1942 or 1943 offensive stance.

Germany is ALWAYS held within a glide slope that gets narrower and narrower until Germany crashes. In aviation, a glide slope is a 3-dimensional cone that steers an aircraft toward the point in space where the runway converges with the its flight path in a way that it is oriented to land. Germany starts 1941 at the open end, and the game forces it downward and into narrower dimensional space with each step forward in time and space.

The glide slope is the metaphor for German gameplay. You start 1941 at the most distant point, but no matter what you do, your pathway to 1945 is fixed for you, and gets narrower and narrower, no matter how you play, how your opponent plays, as time moves toward 1944. It ends with the German army in exactly the position it needs to be in for a Bagration type offensive to shatter it irrevocably.

It is true that some German AARs prove Germany can score a victory. Occasionally a Soviet player bets the farm without knowing it (allowing a super-major encirclement by not paying attention to German Buildup possibilities), or a new player gets beaten.

And certainly I welcome criticism of my gameplay, but let me emphasize this: I am not a dumb person and I am not a person inexperienced in the many facets of land combat on the eastern front from 1941 to 1945. I was never able to get out of 1942 in a way that looked like it was going to be a fun game to play from that point forward (because a Case Blue style offensive is simply stupid to conduct as Germany in this game, due to the constraints Germany is under).

Moreover, I never got to June 1942 in a game where I played Soviets (albeit I abandoned my last game as Soviet). I never came close to feeling threatened as a Soviet player in all but my first game. I never lost as Soviet, and I never had to work as hard as the Soviet side compared to how ungodly hard I had to work to get everything right playing Germany.

I've played the same number of boardgame and computer game East-Front simulations as most of you. I'm as well read as most of you.

If it's this hard to figure out for me, then it's too complicated, because I put in my work, my research, and my repetitions of play. I've drawn out for you my analysis of the game and there are the flaws I, and many like me, see in it. I yelled and screamed and turned blue in the face to get listened to, and occasionally I got angry.

Eventually, one recognizes that what I call the Sovie-o-phile group of players (no disrespect intended) IS the target market for the game, and it would appear, you are the people who strongly identify with the Matrix brand. You guys want a best-case Soviet defense to go against a historic German offense. The results are too predictable for me, but you guys like it, and all my reasonable attempts to persuade you failed. I didn't like the direction I was going with unreasonable attempts to persuade you. Reasonable people must agree to disagree.

I disagree that WitE is the best ever simulation of eastern front warfare 1941-to-1945. I can think of a number of cardboard counter games that were superior, some more simple (Russian Front), some equal in complexity (Fire in the East/Scorched Earth, et al.). Gary Grigsby's War in the East failed to deliver on the most replete collection of data ever used in a wargame. It's not fun to play either side for me.

You're welcome to disagree. Nothing we say seems to be able to pursuade one another. I speak for a relatively small cadre of wargamers who wanted what I wanted: a game with an equal chance for both sides to score a meaningful victory. Germany has no chance to score one, and I find the Soviet victory completely without meaning...

"Adieu, adieu, remember me..."



< Message edited by heliodorus04 -- 2/12/2012 7:12:27 PM >

(in reply to 76mm)
Post #: 138
RE: Will you keep playing after this patch? - 2/12/2012 7:31:28 PM   
heliodorus04


Posts: 1404
Joined: 11/1/2008
From: Denver Colorado
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marquo




You are so full of yourself that it almost humerous; a self-appointed, arrogant pundit who spews venom with every post. Since you are no longer playing, why don't you just disppear leave us pathetic mortals alone?




I believe you to be one of the two most disingenuous Soviet-gets-everything advocates in the community, so it is no surprise that you wish to mock me.

I believe we abandoned all pretense at respect some time ago when you tried to wyrmtongue me with feigned warmth to shut me up about Soviet command superiority (which, by the way, was tangentially addressed in the game since then, validating my analyses of the problems with the game), so for those who may yet wonder who I am, I suppose I can also be defined as someone Marquo wishes to have as an enemy, and you may see evidence of such bias in his messages to me.

(in reply to Marquo)
Post #: 139
RE: Will you keep playing after this patch? - 2/12/2012 7:39:33 PM   
Aurelian

 

Posts: 2233
Joined: 2/26/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marquo


quote:

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04

I represent the ex-patriot WitE German player. I have an e-mail box full of people who wanted me to keep making my points, including beta testers who tried to stop the travesty of Soviet invincibility from making its way to the final product, and quit beta testing when they were dismissed as not understanding the design philosophy behind the game.

Well, here is what I believe is the WitE design philosophy:
The game is designed for people who enjoy playing a simulated Eastern Front campaign from the Soviet side. It's not too difficult, it's not too complicated, and it doesn't require a whole lot of attention to detail of the finer mechanics of the poorly modeled combat and production systems. The community is comprised MOSTLY of the kinds of players who find that gameplay enjoyable.

When someone threatens the status quo, the community of Sovi-o-philes first gently, then angrily attempts to suppress discussion.

I'm disappointed in the game, I am disappointed in the company, and I am disappointed in the community. This is a game where Germany has no chance at improving on its historical performance.




You are so full of yourself that it almost humerous; a self-appointed, arrogant pundit who spews venom with every post. Since you are no longer playing, why don't you just disppear leave us pathetic mortals alone?



LOL his first paragraph. Let's see the emails. Uncensored.

(in reply to Marquo)
Post #: 140
RE: Will you keep playing after this patch? - 2/12/2012 8:00:08 PM   
Tophat1812

 

Posts: 1633
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: janh

quote:

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04

...

I'm disappointed in the game, I am disappointed in the company, and I am disappointed in the community. This is a game where Germany has no chance at improving on its historical performance.


That's perfectly evident from the large majority of AARs... or isn't it? Granted, there is none that started out under the latest beta patch, but numerous others to consider.

Obviously all Soviet players reach Berlin long before spring of 45, and hardly anybody is delayed by the Axis resistance significantly? In fact, no Soviet player has even had a hard time getting into Germany by summer or autumn 45? On the other hand, apparently the Germans never reach Moscow in a single game by winter 1941, not even to think of anyone having even taken it? Or Rostov? And Leningrad, it has never be taken, even despite the Wehrmacht's hand not being restrained byany Hitler intervention? And in 1942, no offensives are possible for the Wehrmacht anymore because the Soviets are really tough nuts to crack? From the outset of GC, aren't they continuously counterattacking and putting the Axis plans and schedules totally off? As if the German units were mere nuissances?

Hmmh, or is it rather the opposite of what I just described? Well, as far as I have played this game, followed a few AARs in detail and read the discussions, there is as much space for improvement of Axis performance as there is for the Soviets. But the improvements happen in different ways, particularly benefiting from hindsight -- and the lack of FOW on say-- leader stats etc.-- that allow some neat "optimizations of chances" to happen. Which in turn helps with things like storming Leningrad or rushing on towards Moscow by early October. If routinely taking these are not huge improvements for the Germans...



How about the AAR "Disaster in the East"? A novice soviet player losses Moscow,has all kinds of problems and by summer 45' still hasn't reached Minsk. The Germans seemed to do quite well here and did significant damage through 1943 as well. And Terje is not a poor wargamer by any means.

(in reply to janh)
Post #: 141
RE: Will you keep playing after this patch? - 2/12/2012 8:23:59 PM   
wmcalpine

 

Posts: 131
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline
Of the two public AARs, one was a draw (but should have been a German minor victory in my opinion, lasting to the bitter end of turn 225 with Berlin still held) and the other looks likely to be a German minor victory. Shouldn't we wait for some more data before claiming one side has an "easy" button? Two games is not a lot.

For games that end early, Of course, one of the German players that publically posts his record is 12-1-1 as part of his sig. If it is so easy for the Sovs, should not there be a Sov player with a similar record? Is there one with that kind of expertise?

Edit for a spelling error. there are probably more...My spelling stinks....
Edit 2. Corrected 15-1-1 to 12-1-1. Apologies, but looks like my memory stinks too. Aging is no fun

< Message edited by wmcalpine -- 2/13/2012 1:34:16 AM >

(in reply to Tophat1812)
Post #: 142
RE: Will you keep playing after this patch? - 2/12/2012 8:39:44 PM   
Marquo


Posts: 1350
Joined: 9/26/2000
Status: offline
[[/quote]

I believe you to be one of the two most disingenuous Soviet-gets-everything advocates in the community, so it is no surprise that you wish to mock me.

I believe we abandoned all pretense at respect some time ago when you tried to wyrmtongue me with feigned warmth to shut me up about Soviet command superiority (which, by the way, was tangentially addressed in the game since then, validating my analyses of the problems with the game), so for those who may yet wonder who I am, I suppose I can also be defined as someone Marquo wishes to have as an enemy, and you may see evidence of such bias in his messages to me.
[/quote]

In contradistinction to you, I am an equal opportunity player who enjoys playing both sides, and have no bias in that regard. It is not my lot in life to censor you or your opinions; your cyberpersonality is so full of itself, so arrogant and conceited as to posit that some "may yet wonder" who you are? Are you so imbued with yourself as to think that those who read this forum may otherwise spend a precious moment of their existence wondering who you are? Earth to Heliodorus 04: not really.

And for you to have the temerity to suggest that I wish to have you, or anyone else for that matter, as an enemy is outlandish. My warmth was not feigned, but you are cold as ice when someone has the audacity to disagree with you.

"Adieu, adieu, remember me..."

Adieu et au revoir, cher ami.





< Message edited by Marquo -- 2/12/2012 8:40:24 PM >

(in reply to heliodorus04)
Post #: 143
RE: Will you keep playing after this patch? - 2/12/2012 8:42:14 PM   
randallw

 

Posts: 1972
Joined: 9/2/2010
Status: offline
The game's design allows a competent Soviet player to avoid a major defeat ( by vic points ), but requires some effort to get a victory. The Soviet player, to win, must do more than simply 'show up'.

(in reply to Tophat1812)
Post #: 144
RE: Will you keep playing after this patch? - 2/12/2012 9:49:13 PM   
wosung

 

Posts: 612
Joined: 7/18/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04
Totenkopf by Charles Trang - there's a gratutious 'I read history books too' reference for those who find them necessary)


http://www.amazon.com/Totenkopf-Charles-Trang/dp/2840481715/ref=sr_1_4?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1329079689&sr=1-4

Hardcover: 400 pages
"This detailed text is accompanied by an astonishing collection of some 800 photographs."

400 pages with 800 photos. Now this is a lot of reading history books too.

(in reply to heliodorus04)
Post #: 145
RE: Will you keep playing after this patch? - 2/12/2012 10:24:07 PM   
EisenHammer


Posts: 428
Joined: 9/1/2008
Status: offline

LOL… A picture is worth a thousand words. I just had to say it.

(in reply to wosung)
Post #: 146
RE: Will you keep playing after this patch? - 2/12/2012 11:45:17 PM   
Aurelian

 

Posts: 2233
Joined: 2/26/2007
Status: offline
If the community is such a disappointment, feel free to leave.

(in reply to EisenHammer)
Post #: 147
RE: Will you keep playing after this patch? - 2/13/2012 12:43:32 AM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 32945
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline
Please keep it civil. Personal insults are a violation of the forum rules. Marquo and Heliodorus, consider yourselves warned.

I have to say that looking in from the sidelines, I'm discouraged that some players are already forming conclusions without any significant play time with the new update. In my experience with games like this, it's very likely that those conclusions are off the mark. We'll see, I guess, but the development team has a lot of experience making these changes and getting the results right.

On a more constructive level, the desire for more flexibility in strategies and outcomes is certainly understandable. There are already many, many possible strategies that are possible and viable, though the metagame may only focus on a few. The points made in this area are well taken though and I'm sure Joel, Gary and Pavel have read them as well and will consider them in their design decisions for War in the West, if not for future updates for War in the East.

Regards,

- Erik

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
Director of Product Development


For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to Aurelian)
Post #: 148
RE: Will you keep playing after this patch? - 2/13/2012 12:44:44 AM   
randallw

 

Posts: 1972
Joined: 9/2/2010
Status: offline
The game isn't perfect, and may never be. The promises of the marketing blurbs probably did a disservice, creating expectations that every under-the-hood feature is extremely close to accurate historical processes ( processes? ).

Perhaps some of the programming, whether it is SMG squads being too deadly for some people, oil stocks that seem high, heavy industry in abundance, or whatever people are poking into, does not break the game for me. The periods of the big campaign where the tide turns one way or the other for a few months is something that fits well enough with my reading of history.

(in reply to Aurelian)
Post #: 149
RE: Will you keep playing after this patch? - 2/13/2012 3:38:46 AM   
AFV


Posts: 371
Joined: 12/24/2011
From: Dallas, Texas
Status: offline
I think he (heliodorus04) does make some valid points. I amy not agree with all of them, but I respect the discussion.

It does seem like if as the German you outplay your opponent, you end up in Berlin in '45, or if you play poorly as the German, you end up in Berlin in '45. And the same can be said from the Soviet side.

I am not saying IN ALL cases this is true, it just seems that way. And with that said, we really have not seen enough results from AARs that were not corrupted by patches occuring during them to really draw firm conclusions. (Again, NOT dissing patches, they are good, needed, and a necessary evil- a game without patches is a dead game, just pointing out a fact).

Perhaps another way of looking at it is like this: I would like the possibility, due to the Soviet outplaying the German, of stopping the German in '42 and even pushing them back. Or the opposite, due to great play of the German, they run wild thru Mother Russia. Right now, I don't think good or bad play can make that much difference (again, please not saying NO difference). It does seem like the game follows a more historical course regardless of play. Perhaps I fall in the category of wanting more of a game than a simulation?

In any event, 2x3 is not gonna please everyone, that is for sure.


< Message edited by AFV -- 2/13/2012 3:39:47 AM >

(in reply to randallw)
Post #: 150
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