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New Mod of Scn 2 a kind of 1.5 - more balanced

 
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New Mod of Scn 2 a kind of 1.5 - more balanced - 2/3/2012 12:25:55 PM   
cavalry

 

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From: Sampford Spiney Devon UK
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OK Gents and Ladies...

Put this here just for now to attract views but it can go to the mod page

I am looking for some ideas for a slightly revised mod for scn 2

I am looking at these main issues-

I would like to add a couple 2 or 3 more allied capital ships to the British fleet at the start - I am thinking of the Hood ( because I like it , I know it was sunk before but this is scn 2) but open to other ideas ( maybe some more Dutch or French DD or similar ships or maybe a French BB) . If you have the correct stats and art I will need that. This will make the Japs more cautious in the DEI at the start.

Add more garrison requirements to both sides. But mainly in China. This will slow China down.

Allow all Mogami class to convert to scout cruisers

Should I add anymore Jap ships that could be built only at the expense of others? Shall we add a few more proposed US ships or additional ships of the same class?

Any other ideas?
I do not want to change too much but want a kind of SCN 1.5 feel.
I have done lots of mods for PZC HPS which have been well received. If anyone wants to make it a joint effort I am happy with that as well.

Cav




Post #: 1
RE: New Mod of Scn 2 a kind of 1.5 - more balanced - 2/3/2012 12:31:24 PM   
n01487477


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Well if Scen 1 is more historical OOB and scenario 2 is more powerful, then this sounds close to 2.5 than 1.5 ...

[edit] Sorry - shouldn't step on your toes without saying that a 1.5 idea is a good one; just think you need to look at the differences between 1 and 2 and make some changes to make that comparison otherwise you're going into fairy mod land... (somewhere I love to be ... (cough cough )well not with fairies ... but you guys get my point)

< Message edited by n01487477 -- 2/3/2012 12:34:47 PM >


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Post #: 2
RE: New Mod of Scn 2 a kind of 1.5 - more balanced - 2/3/2012 1:31:57 PM   
Panther Bait


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A modest increase in late war Allied aircraft replacements is probably reasonable.  Perhaps make some of the better US fighters show up a little earlier and stay in production longer.

Mike


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Post #: 3
RE: New Mod of Scn 2 a kind of 1.5 - more balanced - 2/3/2012 2:52:51 PM   
crsutton


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Adding ships to either side will have very little impact. Extra garrison requirements might be a factor but then you have to make sure it is right or you can throw the whole thing off.

To go from 2. to 1.5 you will need to address much more and you are talking about a very large project.

However, in my mind there are really two main things to focus on. One is a limitation to the Japanese ability to advance R&D ( some players have gotten very good at this) of both ships and aircraft. Just slow it down a little. The other is to limit the ability of the Japanese side to focus on the "best" aircraft only. They should be able to make more and adjust production but not have complete control.

You do this and I think you really would have a great game without having to change anything else.

However, if you do this then you really have to evaluate victory conditions so as to make sure that the Japanese player has an equal chance to win the game. As it is, I still think the Allies should win most scen#2 campaigns, so you must be careful here.

That is pretty much it. Get ahold of the insane air war and then balance the VP. Sounds easy, but it is not. You really need to work with a team to pull this off.

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Post #: 4
RE: New Mod of Scn 2 a kind of 1.5 - more balanced - 2/3/2012 3:09:23 PM   
ny59giants_MatrixForum


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You might consider adding Allied airframes to the "CD Convoys" that show up Cape Town at the beginning of almost every month. How much and how offend should be up for debate.

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RE: New Mod of Scn 2 a kind of 1.5 - more balanced - 2/3/2012 3:28:39 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 16790
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My suggestions:

1)  Add 5,000 RAF fighters to the pools
2)  Add 4,000 USAAF aircraft to the pools
3)  Add 1,000 USN SBds to the pools
4)  Don't accept any modding suggestions from John III.  He'll come up with the "Sixteenth Circle" in which Japan plans ahead and bulids out sixteen USS Normandy-class guided missile cruisers.

P.S.  I'm jesting about the pools.  I have no idea how many aircraft I would actually add, but that's the one area that the Allies really need help. Everywhere else, to me, Scenario Two is fine.

(in reply to ny59giants_MatrixForum)
Post #: 6
RE: New Mod of Scn 2 a kind of 1.5 - more balanced - 2/3/2012 3:58:30 PM   
HansBolter


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I would also suggest finding a way to tone down or restrict the overpowered late war Japanese E class ASW assets.

I have yet to see a single Japanese player offer to compensate for this design flaw by allowing the Allied player to have working torpedos. Since it seems most Japanese players would never agree to working US torpedos something needs to be done to reign in the E class.

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Hans


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Post #: 7
RE: New Mod of Scn 2 a kind of 1.5 - more balanced - 2/3/2012 4:15:01 PM   
John 3rd


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

My suggestions:

1)  Add 5,000 RAF fighters to the pools
2)  Add 4,000 USAAF aircraft to the pools
3)  Add 1,000 USN SBds to the pools
4)  Don't accept any modding suggestions from John III.  He'll come up with the "Sixteenth Circle" in which Japan plans ahead and bulids out sixteen USS Normandy-class guided missile cruisers.

P.S.  I'm jesting about the pools.  I have no idea how many aircraft I would actually add, but that's the one area that the Allies really need help. Everywhere else, to me, Scenario Two is fine.


THANKS Dannyboy!

I don't like Scen 2 since it is WAAAAAY beyond could be/should be of Japan. We tried to put Reluctant Admiral right in the middle of the Grand Canpaign and Scen 2. It has an Enhanced--but historically feasible--Kaigun, some IJN LCU improvements, some aircraft changes, but little-to-no changes to the IJA. The Allies get some changes as well including more CVLs, additional CVE conversions, larger starting plane pools, and Navy/Army Training Squadrons to allow for on-map pilot training.


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(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 8
RE: New Mod of Scn 2 a kind of 1.5 - more balanced - 2/3/2012 4:31:34 PM   
Puhis


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quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

One is a limitation to the Japanese ability to advance R&D ( some players have gotten very good at this) of both ships and aircraft. Just slow it down a little. The other is to limit the ability of the Japanese side to focus on the "best" aircraft only.



That's already in game, just play PDU off and Japan have to produce more or less every model. Japan can still get some of the planes earlier, but there's only limited number of squadrons that can use them.


My suggestion would be withdraw dates. If Japan is too strong in late war, just set withdraw dates to some of the extra LCUs and squadrons they get.

(in reply to crsutton)
Post #: 9
RE: New Mod of Scn 2 a kind of 1.5 - more balanced - 2/4/2012 3:47:09 AM   
crsutton


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Puhis


quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

One is a limitation to the Japanese ability to advance R&D ( some players have gotten very good at this) of both ships and aircraft. Just slow it down a little. The other is to limit the ability of the Japanese side to focus on the "best" aircraft only.



That's already in game, just play PDU off and Japan have to produce more or less every model. Japan can still get some of the planes earlier, but there's only limited number of squadrons that can use them.


My suggestion would be withdraw dates. If Japan is too strong in late war, just set withdraw dates to some of the extra LCUs and squadrons they get.




I know but very few Japanese players are willing to make this sacrifice. It pretty much gives the game to the Allies. I don't mind Japan getting a boost in numbers and some control over production. Just a bit more sanity than you see in scen #2.

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Post #: 10
RE: New Mod of Scn 2 a kind of 1.5 - more balanced - 2/4/2012 4:57:41 AM   
vettim89


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I guess my beef with Scen 2 is that it compensates on the wrong end of the game. By that I mean that Japan does not need more stuff at the beginning of the war to accomplish the Centrifugal Offensive. By frontloading the game with extra Infantry Divisions and aircraft, Japan is capable of truly running rampant for a year or more. A more balanced scenario, in my mind, would be to enhance the mid/late war part of the game. That is about impossible to do within the current confines. Perhaps some one with better knowledge of the editor could come up with something.

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Post #: 11
RE: New Mod of Scn 2 a kind of 1.5 - more balanced - 2/4/2012 1:35:32 PM   
cavalry

 

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Thanks for all the interesting comments

I agree PDU OFF is a pretty good idea - i would have been happy with that in my current scn2

(in reply to vettim89)
Post #: 12
RE: New Mod of Scn 2 a kind of 1.5 - more balanced - 2/4/2012 1:37:35 PM   
cavalry

 

Posts: 2338
Joined: 9/2/2003
From: Sampford Spiney Devon UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

My suggestions:

1)  Add 5,000 RAF fighters to the pools
2)  Add 4,000 USAAF aircraft to the pools
3)  Add 1,000 USN SBds to the pools
4)  Don't accept any modding suggestions from John III.  He'll come up with the "Sixteenth Circle" in which Japan plans ahead and bulids out sixteen USS Normandy-class guided missile cruisers.

P.S.  I'm jesting about the pools.  I have no idea how many aircraft I would actually add, but that's the one area that the Allies really need help. Everywhere else, to me, Scenario Two is fine.


THANKS Dannyboy!

I don't like Scen 2 since it is WAAAAAY beyond could be/should be of Japan. We tried to put Reluctant Admiral right in the middle of the Grand Canpaign and Scen 2. It has an Enhanced--but historically feasible--Kaigun, some IJN LCU improvements, some aircraft changes, but little-to-no changes to the IJA. The Allies get some changes as well including more CVLs, additional CVE conversions, larger starting plane pools, and Navy/Army Training Squadrons to allow for on-map pilot training.




John,

Can your mod be loaded and still load the stock stuff?

I am very nervous to change files with two long standing games in progress.

cav

(in reply to John 3rd)
Post #: 13
RE: New Mod of Scn 2 a kind of 1.5 - more balanced - 2/4/2012 2:38:50 PM   
vettim89


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You can always make a separate install for RA

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Post #: 14
RE: New Mod of Scn 2 a kind of 1.5 - more balanced - 2/4/2012 4:10:51 PM   
mike scholl 1

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

I would also suggest finding a way to tone down or restrict the overpowered late war Japanese E class ASW assets.

I have yet to see a single Japanese player offer to compensate for this design flaw by allowing the Allied player to have working torpedos. Since it seems most Japanese players would never agree to working US torpedos something needs to be done to reign in the E class.



For once Hans, you and I are in TOTAL agreement.

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Post #: 15
RE: New Mod of Scn 2 a kind of 1.5 - more balanced - 2/4/2012 4:57:04 PM   
PaxMondo


Posts: 8403
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1


quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

I would also suggest finding a way to tone down or restrict the overpowered late war Japanese E class ASW assets.

I have yet to see a single Japanese player offer to compensate for this design flaw by allowing the Allied player to have working torpedos. Since it seems most Japanese players would never agree to working US torpedos something needs to be done to reign in the E class.



For once Hans, you and I are in TOTAL agreement.


Fix is already been done, so not sure what you are talking about.

Refer to Da Babe's. I've included the fix in my mod. Not sure it will ever reach the official scenarios as there is no indication that another data patch will happen. But, since this proposal is another user mod, could easily be incorporated as it is in John's RA mod.

So, contrary to your allegations, not only has the fix been made, but it is already in place with user mods.

BTW: Thanks to John and the rest of the Da Babe's team for working out a solution for the issue and the implementation.


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Pax

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Post #: 16
RE: New Mod of Scn 2 a kind of 1.5 - more balanced - 2/4/2012 6:11:07 PM   
vettim89


Posts: 3487
Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Toledo, Ohio
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quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo


quote:

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1


quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

I would also suggest finding a way to tone down or restrict the overpowered late war Japanese E class ASW assets.

I have yet to see a single Japanese player offer to compensate for this design flaw by allowing the Allied player to have working torpedos. Since it seems most Japanese players would never agree to working US torpedos something needs to be done to reign in the E class.



For once Hans, you and I are in TOTAL agreement.


Fix is already been done, so not sure what you are talking about.

Refer to Da Babe's. I've included the fix in my mod. Not sure it will ever reach the official scenarios as there is no indication that another data patch will happen. But, since this proposal is another user mod, could easily be incorporated as it is in John's RA mod.

So, contrary to your allegations, not only has the fix been made, but it is already in place with user mods.

BTW: Thanks to John and the rest of the Da Babe's team for working out a solution for the issue and the implementation.




Pax,

Don't cloud this debate with facts. There is no place for that in this sort of debate

(sarcasm font enabled in case you didn't realize)

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Post #: 17
RE: New Mod of Scn 2 a kind of 1.5 - more balanced - 2/4/2012 6:16:44 PM   
PaxMondo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vettim89


quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo


quote:

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1


quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

I would also suggest finding a way to tone down or restrict the overpowered late war Japanese E class ASW assets.

I have yet to see a single Japanese player offer to compensate for this design flaw by allowing the Allied player to have working torpedos. Since it seems most Japanese players would never agree to working US torpedos something needs to be done to reign in the E class.



For once Hans, you and I are in TOTAL agreement.


Fix is already been done, so not sure what you are talking about.

Refer to Da Babe's. I've included the fix in my mod. Not sure it will ever reach the official scenarios as there is no indication that another data patch will happen. But, since this proposal is another user mod, could easily be incorporated as it is in John's RA mod.

So, contrary to your allegations, not only has the fix been made, but it is already in place with user mods.

BTW: Thanks to John and the rest of the Da Babe's team for working out a solution for the issue and the implementation.




Pax,

Don't cloud this debate with facts. There is no place for that in this sort of debate

(sarcasm font enabled in case you didn't realize)

Oops! Argh! My bad!!

<50 lashes for clouding the debate>
<50 more lashes for failure to see this is AFB rant>
<50 more just for fun! >

<sarcasm font still enabled>



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Post #: 18
RE: New Mod of Scn 2 a kind of 1.5 - more balanced - 2/5/2012 7:17:50 PM   
crsutton


Posts: 9565
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo


quote:

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1


quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

I would also suggest finding a way to tone down or restrict the overpowered late war Japanese E class ASW assets.

I have yet to see a single Japanese player offer to compensate for this design flaw by allowing the Allied player to have working torpedos. Since it seems most Japanese players would never agree to working US torpedos something needs to be done to reign in the E class.



For once Hans, you and I are in TOTAL agreement.


Fix is already been done, so not sure what you are talking about.

Refer to Da Babe's. I've included the fix in my mod. Not sure it will ever reach the official scenarios as there is no indication that another data patch will happen. But, since this proposal is another user mod, could easily be incorporated as it is in John's RA mod.

So, contrary to your allegations, not only has the fix been made, but it is already in place with user mods.

BTW: Thanks to John and the rest of the Da Babe's team for working out a solution for the issue and the implementation.



That is fine but I am two real life years into a stock scenario and it looks as if it will go on for at least another year.

It does really need to be addressed in stock as well. For me the most disappointing experience is the total absence of an Allied sub war on the Japanese merchant fleet. Mid 1944 in my game and I have pretty much pulled my subs from the Japanese sea lanes and just use them locally to hunt warships.

But I rant on again and again about this.....


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Post #: 19
RE: New Mod of Scn 2 a kind of 1.5 - more balanced - 2/5/2012 7:34:15 PM   
HansBolter


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From: St. Petersburg, Florida, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo


quote:

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1


quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

I would also suggest finding a way to tone down or restrict the overpowered late war Japanese E class ASW assets.

I have yet to see a single Japanese player offer to compensate for this design flaw by allowing the Allied player to have working torpedos. Since it seems most Japanese players would never agree to working US torpedos something needs to be done to reign in the E class.



For once Hans, you and I are in TOTAL agreement.


Fix is already been done, so not sure what you are talking about.

Refer to Da Babe's. I've included the fix in my mod. Not sure it will ever reach the official scenarios as there is no indication that another data patch will happen. But, since this proposal is another user mod, could easily be incorporated as it is in John's RA mod.

So, contrary to your allegations, not only has the fix been made, but it is already in place with user mods.

BTW: Thanks to John and the rest of the Da Babe's team for working out a solution for the issue and the implementation.



Pax, I'm surprised at you behaving so childishly. He is talking about a mod of scenario 2, not about a mod to a base of DaBabes which would have the fix you refer to. So his base scenario, before his mods would NOT have the fix you refer to. We both know you are intelligent enough to know this.

We also know you are intelligent enough to recognize that there are many, many aspects of sceanrio 2 wherein Japan is more than significantly overpowered. Hence this post in the first place attempting to create a toned down version of Japanese overpoweredness.

For you to engage in a denegrating attack ("your allegations") at the first sign of some one suggesting a fix for some of that overpoweredness and then go on with your buddy vettim89 behaving like a couple of little children celebrating the manner in which you "told off" that idiot Hans is more appropriate for the schoolyard than these boards. Get out of child mode and act like an adult again.

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Post #: 20
RE: New Mod of Scn 2 a kind of 1.5 - more balanced - 2/5/2012 9:01:27 PM   
John 3rd


Posts: 15840
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From: La Salle, Colorado
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quote:

ORIGINAL: cavalry


quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

My suggestions:

1)  Add 5,000 RAF fighters to the pools
2)  Add 4,000 USAAF aircraft to the pools
3)  Add 1,000 USN SBds to the pools
4)  Don't accept any modding suggestions from John III.  He'll come up with the "Sixteenth Circle" in which Japan plans ahead and bulids out sixteen USS Normandy-class guided missile cruisers.

P.S.  I'm jesting about the pools.  I have no idea how many aircraft I would actually add, but that's the one area that the Allies really need help. Everywhere else, to me, Scenario Two is fine.


THANKS Dannyboy!

I don't like Scen 2 since it is WAAAAAY beyond could be/should be of Japan. We tried to put Reluctant Admiral right in the middle of the Grand Canpaign and Scen 2. It has an Enhanced--but historically feasible--Kaigun, some IJN LCU improvements, some aircraft changes, but little-to-no changes to the IJA. The Allies get some changes as well including more CVLs, additional CVE conversions, larger starting plane pools, and Navy/Army Training Squadrons to allow for on-map pilot training.




John,

Can your mod be loaded and still load the stock stuff?

I am very nervous to change files with two long standing games in progress.

cav


Best to make a separate folder for it. Since it is Babes compatible, you could also work those Mods into it as well. I created a 'How To' Thread a while back. Will jump over to War Room and bring it forward. Check it out. The steps are pretty clear and you'll find a bunch of enjoyment within the Mod.

As to earlier comment regarding how Scen 2 loads-up the wrong area of the war, I TOTALLY concur. RA provides for only a slightly stronger Japan in 1941. There are a total of 7 ships added to the OOB: a CVL, 2 CL, and 4 DD and about 150 aircraft with the air units beginning in the low-to-mid-50s for experience. Every addition in RA has a countereffect (less experience, less supply, less fuel, etc...) There are no real changes to the IJA PERIOD during the war. The Kaigun gains its bonus in 1943 with the completion of 3 Shokaku-Kai CVs, 2 BCs, 2 CAs, and few additional CLs and DDs. Shinano and Taiho are subtracted from the OOB.


EDIT: I brought it forward in the War Room. If you have questions please email me.


< Message edited by John 3rd -- 2/5/2012 9:05:30 PM >


_____________________________



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(in reply to cavalry)
Post #: 21
RE: New Mod of Scn 2 a kind of 1.5 - more balanced - 2/6/2012 3:51:38 PM   
foliveti


Posts: 364
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From: Stamford, CT
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As an Allied player, my biggest problem with scenario 2 is the extra 10 points of experience that the japanese pilots seem to have in the beginning of the war.  What I would rather see to balance the scenario is keep the extra units for Japan without giving the Allies anything extra, but reduce the experience levels to scenario 1 levels.  I would not mind compensating for this by giving the Japanese pilot replacements a bit more experience. 

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Post #: 22
RE: New Mod of Scn 2 a kind of 1.5 - more balanced - 2/6/2012 5:28:15 PM   
Miller


Posts: 1973
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From: Ashington, England.
Status: offline
When I start another game as the Japs I would like to play Scn 1 and PDU Off. However I would like a few concessions off the Allied player in return:

1) A sensible approach in Burma. Its far too easy for the Allies to conquer Burma by the end of 42 if they send the bulk of the India based units there (no problem with this in scn 2 as the Japs have plenty of extra Divs to counter this).

2) Some limits on 4E numbers in play (attacking) in a single day, although with PDU off this may not be too big an issue. I would offer to limit the use of Nettys in return.

3) I would also ask for a reasonable Allied strategy of advance. No landing 10 Divs on Hokkaido in early 43. This might sound too restrictive, but remember the bulk of the IJNAAF will still be flying worthless crap well into 44........

(in reply to foliveti)
Post #: 23
RE: New Mod of Scn 2 a kind of 1.5 - more balanced - 2/6/2012 8:00:16 PM   
Roger Neilson II


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From: Newcastle upon Tyne. England
Status: offline
That does sound like a nice game.

Roger

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Post #: 24
RE: New Mod of Scn 2 a kind of 1.5 - more balanced - 2/7/2012 9:17:47 AM   
jeffs


Posts: 644
Joined: 2/19/2004
From: Tokyo
Status: offline
If playing scenario 2 in addition to PDU off (and no funky research) how about no withdrawal.....Allies find they can get a few more LCUS and have more training groups (though not for the navy)

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"Mistakes in operations and tactics can be corrected, but
political and strategic mistakes live forever". The authors were refering to Japan but the same could be said of the US misadventure in Iraq

(in reply to Roger Neilson II)
Post #: 25
RE: New Mod of Scn 2 a kind of 1.5 - more balanced - 2/7/2012 9:48:34 AM   
cavalry

 

Posts: 2338
Joined: 9/2/2003
From: Sampford Spiney Devon UK
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Jeffs- Thats a good idea indeed.

thanks for all the other comments good and bad - more than expected.

(in reply to jeffs)
Post #: 26
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