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Soviet Armaments Bug

 
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Soviet Armaments Bug - 2/3/2012 1:34:40 AM   
Q-Ball


Posts: 5266
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Chicago, Illinois
Status: offline 		I just hit Turn 55, the first turn in July 1942, in my game vs. Baelfiin. My armament pool dropped from 648,000 on Turn 54, to 164,000 on Turn 55, a drop of nearly 500,000! I am also producing about 100,000 points per turn, and prior to this turn I have been steadily adding to the pile each turn.

I built no units at all on Turn 54.

I compared the production screens; though I built 30 rockets, and a couple hundred artillery pieces, and overall spent more than usual, it doesn't look like 600,000 points. At all.

I have both saves, but something is screwey.......let me know where to send the saves.
Post #: 1
RE: Soviet Armaments Bug - 2/3/2012 1:39:16 AM   
Michael T


Posts: 1555
Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: online 		You didn't put a bunch of Cav Corp in refit did you? The eat arm points.

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RE: Soviet Armaments Bug - 2/3/2012 1:39:57 AM   
Helpless


Posts: 11083
Joined: 8/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

let me know where to send the saves.


You may attach them to the message or send to 2by3@2by3games.com

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WITE/WITW Development

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Post #: 3
RE: Soviet Armaments Bug - 2/3/2012 3:26:57 AM   
Q-Ball


Posts: 5266
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Chicago, Illinois
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Helpless

quote:

let me know where to send the saves.


You may attach them to the message or send to 2by3@2by3games.com


Sent!

I did have Cav Corps on REFIT, but 600,000 armament points is approx. 9000 Cav Squads. That can't be all of it.

(in reply to Helpless)
Post #: 4
RE: Soviet Armaments Bug - 2/3/2012 3:43:13 AM   
gingerbread


Posts: 1167
Joined: 1/4/2007
From: Lund, Sweden
Status: online 		Rifle squad upgrade starts 7/42. How many of the new ones do you have?

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Post #: 5
RE: Soviet Armaments Bug - 2/3/2012 4:07:47 AM   
Q-Ball


Posts: 5266
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Chicago, Illinois
Status: offline 		Good question on the Rifle Squads: We did build 5,300 of those. But that would still be only 42,400. That still leaves 500K or so; there are probably 60K at least of "normal" builds

Nothing is leaping out that would explain that expenditure

If anyone can spot the 600K, let me know:




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Q-Ball -- 2/3/2012 4:10:09 AM >

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Post #: 6
RE: Soviet Armaments Bug - 2/3/2012 4:31:15 AM   
JAMiAM

 

Posts: 6146
Joined: 2/8/2004
Status: offline 		Export (or hand copy) the numbers to a spreadsheet and run them out. I see a lot of items that produced several hundred, or a couple thousand, new components. I added up about four different things (don't recall which) and came up with over 40k armaments just for them. As far as 600k goes, it does seem a bit high, at first glance, but I see a couple hundred thousand pretty readily just in nickel and diming across the list.

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Post #: 7
RE: Soviet Armaments Bug - 2/3/2012 4:35:15 AM   
Q-Ball


Posts: 5266
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Chicago, Illinois
Status: offline 		I bet I found it.

My screen cut off the # in Rifle squad on the first shot, but that particular Rifle Squad had a pool on T-54 of exactly 2000. On T-55, it had a pool of 60,541!

Now, we only built 3,500 of the new Rifle Squads....supposedly. But if I click on that and look at the Commander's Report, we have 64,000 of those squads now. Building 64,000 of those would cost about 448,000 Armament points. That would explain it.

I would like Helpless's take, but I a bet I am right.

So, all Soviet players can expect a huge Armament drain when the Rifle Squads upgrade. If that's WAD, I'll move on. It probably isn't, but games can probably stay balanced anyway. It just is a quirk.

In my game, there are another 40,000 squads that still need to be converted; that will be another 280,000 in the next few turns, with a total expenditure of approx. 700,000 on re-equipping Rifle Squads

The Germans, BTW, have the same problem, just in early 1943; every Wehrmacht Infantry, Mot INf, and Panzer Gren squad upgrades. On 30,000+ squads, that's at least 270,000, call it 300,000 in expenditure. Maybe that's one reason the Wehrmacht struggles with armaments in the late game.

On top of that, the 1/42 changeover in Romanian Rifle squads is another 8,500 to change, or approx 60,000 Armament points. Not a huge hole, but this also explains why the Romanian Armament pool is always at Zero. I just checked my game vs. B-G, it's mid-1942, and only 20% of the Romanian Squads have upgraded to the new '42 squad. The rest are still converting, and it takes awhile.

< Message edited by Q-Ball -- 2/3/2012 5:27:02 AM >

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Post #: 8
RE: Soviet Armaments Bug - 2/3/2012 5:26:43 AM   
gingerbread


Posts: 1167
Joined: 1/4/2007
From: Lund, Sweden
Status: online 		Good Luck!



< Message edited by gingerbread -- 2/3/2012 5:28:30 AM >

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Post #: 9
RE: Soviet Armaments Bug - 2/3/2012 5:32:03 AM   
Q-Ball


Posts: 5266
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Chicago, Illinois
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: gingerbread

Good Luck!




I remember that thread now. We've been over this ground before. So, I guess there will be another 800,000 to 1,000,000 expenditure in the last quarter of 1943.

I'll play on!

PS: Werhmacht still needs an armament boost in 1944+.......

(in reply to gingerbread)
Post #: 10
RE: Soviet Armaments Bug - 2/3/2012 6:12:27 AM   
JAMiAM

 

Posts: 6146
Joined: 2/8/2004
Status: offline 		Look on the bright side...obsolete #-marked components get scrapped, eventually, returning armament points back into the available pool to be respent. It's not like they are permanently lost. Good find, and a timely warning. I've got a Soviet game at turn 44 where I'm up to 376k armaments in the pool. When they all disappear in another 10 turns, I'll try to remember why!

(in reply to Q-Ball)
Post #: 11
RE: Soviet Armaments Bug - 2/3/2012 6:46:20 AM   
gingerbread


Posts: 1167
Joined: 1/4/2007
From: Lund, Sweden
Status: online 		AFAIK, scrap value is capped at 33%.

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Post #: 12
RE: Soviet Armaments Bug - 2/3/2012 7:02:22 AM   
JAMiAM

 

Posts: 6146
Joined: 2/8/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: gingerbread

AFAIK, scrap value is capped at 33%.

Yes, I believe you're right. I should have said that they were not "totally lost" instead of not "permanently lost".

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Post #: 13
RE: Soviet Armaments Bug - 2/3/2012 10:27:52 AM   
Helpless


Posts: 11083
Joined: 8/27/2004
Status: offline 		Several points:

- ARM production is set to compensate such upgrade costs. Of cause it is possible to make it different, but the the "price" of such change could be very high.
- Player has ability to control the process - don't set too many units on refit. As I can see majority of your units in the save are on refit.
- As I can see from the save, major limiting factor is manpower - not the armaments. Red Army is way too big for the production at this point (most units are at 100% on max toe), so I don't see particular problem with ARM.
- Obsolete squad are not completely wasted in any form yet. There are many units which still using them and some may swap back. Of cause the limiting factor here is manpower.
- There are several changes in coming patch which could slightly improve situation with armaments, reduced rotation, reduced chance for the old equipment to get produced, etc.
- Static mode should be more attractive - units will switch to automatic refit mode during replacements, but upgrade routines won't kick in. So they won't be depleting and at the same time consume less resources, including the upgrades we are discussing here.


_____________________________

Pavel Zagzin
WITE/WITW Development

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Post #: 14
RE: Soviet Armaments Bug - 2/3/2012 2:02:13 PM   
Q-Ball


Posts: 5266
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Chicago, Illinois
Status: offline 		I actually don't have an issue at all with ARM in this game, I don't feel I need a boost. I was just wondering if there was a problem somewhere.

If anything, I think the Germans need a boost. Germans should build a surplus in 1942, but that's going to be gone quickly in 1943 with the Rifle Squad upgrades, which will consume roughly 200,000 armaments.

(in reply to Helpless)
Post #: 15
RE: Soviet Armaments Bug - 2/3/2012 2:23:51 PM   
Baelfiin

 

Posts: 1252
Joined: 6/7/2006
Status: offline 		Let me know if you guys need the save from my side if yoou need any more info. Seems like a pretty big hit to me.

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"We are going to attack all night, and attack tomorrow morning..... If we are not victorious, let no one come back alive!" -- Patton
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Post #: 16
RE: Soviet Armaments Bug - 2/3/2012 2:35:47 PM   
Helpless


Posts: 11083
Joined: 8/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

If anything, I think the Germans need a boost. Germans should build a surplus in 1942, but that's going to be gone quickly in 1943 with the Rifle Squad upgrades, which will consume roughly 200,000 armaments.


So far there is not enough of evidence. We are trying to keep ARM tight, so you can't have everyone on 100% refit.

From other side, you may always mod it by simply increasing the size of ARM factories.


_____________________________

Pavel Zagzin
WITE/WITW Development

(in reply to Q-Ball)
Post #: 17
RE: Soviet Armaments Bug - 2/3/2012 4:00:42 PM   
Baelfiin

 

Posts: 1252
Joined: 6/7/2006
Status: offline 		Germans do need ARM boost later in war if the manpower numbers are what they should be. They ran out of quality dudes not rifles and machineguns.

_____________________________

"We are going to attack all night, and attack tomorrow morning..... If we are not victorious, let no one come back alive!" -- Patton
WITE-Beta
WITW-Alpha

(in reply to Helpless)
Post #: 18
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