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What is this? - 1/31/2012 10:48:32 AM   
Apollo11


Posts: 21618
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From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline 		Hi all,

What is this?


I don't immediately recognize the aircraft...




The picture was from DailyMail UK under article "Rescued from the trash: Photo album of fascinating WWII portraits of African-American troops in Europe"...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2094070/Rescued-trash-Photo-album-fascinating-WWII-portraits-African-American-troops-Europe.html


Leo "Apollo11"

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Post #: 1
RE: What is this? - 1/31/2012 11:08:39 AM   
Terminus


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Status: online 		Looks like it could be an Arado 234.

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Post #: 2
RE: What is this? - 1/31/2012 12:06:43 PM   
Apollo11


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Looks like it could be an Arado 234.


At first I thought the same but engine nacelle is not right...


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Post #: 3
RE: What is this? - 1/31/2012 3:04:28 PM   
Terminus


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Status: online 		Weird to see a German plane with an in-the-wing nacelle arrangement.

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Post #: 4
RE: What is this? - 1/31/2012 4:35:04 PM   
geofflambert


Posts: 2151
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline 		Can't believe it but it sure looks like a KI-45 KAIc Toryu.  Can't Imagine one in Europe.  Could'nt find out if it was based on a German design. Maybe for a change the Germans were copying a Japanese design?

< Message edited by geofflambert -- 1/31/2012 4:37:08 PM >

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Post #: 5
RE: What is this? - 1/31/2012 5:11:18 PM   
Erkki

 

Posts: 1125
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Status: offline 		Looks like a radial engine Ju 86 that has lost its nose...



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RE: What is this? - 1/31/2012 7:36:44 PM   
Terminus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erkki

Looks like a radial engine Ju 86 that has lost its nose...




I'll give you that it's a prop plane with an empty nacelle, but the fuselage seems too narrow for a Ju-86.

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Post #: 7
RE: What is this? - 1/31/2012 7:37:33 PM   
Terminus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

Can't believe it but it sure looks like a KI-45 KAIc Toryu.  Can't Imagine one in Europe.  Could'nt find out if it was based on a German design. Maybe for a change the Germans were copying a Japanese design?


They didn't need more heavy fighters. Besides, narrow as it is, the fuselage is too wide for a Nick.

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Post #: 8
RE: What is this? - 1/31/2012 9:40:01 PM   
geofflambert


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Status: offline 		You're right Terminus, how about these two possibilities? Hs-129 or Avia B-71 (aka SB)

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Post #: 9
RE: What is this? - 2/1/2012 5:02:54 AM   
Dili

 

Posts: 2579
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Status: offline 		He 177 maybe.

Nopes the the distance from cockpit to wind doesn't fit. And the wing sees too low.

He 115?

< Message edited by Dili -- 2/1/2012 5:17:28 AM >

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Post #: 10
RE: What is this? - 2/1/2012 10:12:06 AM   
Apollo11


Posts: 21618
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From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline 		Hi all,

This is really strange...

For me the obvious first answer would be jet engine - but the nacelle is mid wing and there are no exhausts - therefore it must be propeller driver aircraft... but the distance is very small for propeller to fit and not hit the fuselage... weird indeed...


Leo "Apollo11"

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Post #: 11
RE: What is this? - 2/1/2012 10:48:47 AM   
cantona2


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Status: offline 		Could it be the torn off wing of another aircraft that has just been dumped there?
Wing on the right looks a totally different shape and when I first saw this photo I thought Ju 88

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Post #: 12
RE: What is this? - 2/1/2012 12:24:29 PM   
tocaff


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Status: offline 		Agreed that the 2 wings don't appear to be the same.  

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Post #: 13
RE: What is this? - 2/1/2012 2:07:51 PM   
mike scholl 1

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cantona2

Could it be the torn off wing of another aircraft that has just been dumped there?
Wing on the right looks a totally different shape and when I first saw this photo I thought Ju 88


Looks like a scrap heap. Could it be a Lockeeed Ventura or a Martin Baltimore just piled in with a German wing?

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Post #: 14
RE: What is this? - 2/1/2012 3:31:51 PM   
Dili

 

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Post #: 15
RE: What is this? - 2/1/2012 6:00:20 PM   
Treetop64


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1

Looks like a scrap heap. Could it be a Lockeeed Ventura or a Martin Baltimore just piled in with a German wing?



I'm with him.

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Post #: 16
RE: What is this? - 2/2/2012 11:00:34 AM   
JeffK


Posts: 4674
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From: In a little tin hut in a big tin shed
Status: online 		Just about anything could turn up in  graveyard on an airfied.
Its a lot easier to rule out possibles looking at the engine position on the wing and the wing position on the fuselage. But maybe a lot of bits and pieces have been canniblised or knocked off
Reading the story the unit served in the UK and NW Europe, cuts out a few more.
I dont think its a PV1/Ventura, the fuselage shape is a bit squared, though a buldozer could do that.

I'm going to guess a Bristol Blenheim IV or later.

I'd love to know the right answer.


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Post #: 17
RE: What is this? - 2/2/2012 12:36:33 PM   
Jaroen


Posts: 148
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From: Amsterdam
Status: offline 		I agree with the scrapheep idea. It could be anything lying around on some captured German airfield. Perhaps in former occupied territory. Like what the caption with the original picture reads:
Beginning in December 1943 and ending with the war in 1945, the 389th Regiment travelled to England, France, Belgium, Luxembourg, Germany and France

From the airframe itself, the fuselage, thick wingroots and cockpit position, I was thinking some earlier He-111 version. But the engine nacelles are somewhat wrong for that. Not completely though and I can't think of any other German plane coming close. It's not unlikely to find those older He-111 with other bombers.

If not an He-111 I like Dili's alternative, something French. The LeO 451 might be it . . . , but the cockpit/fuselage position doesn't convince me. Maybe some Bloch??? Knowing those engine nacelles is knowing the plane I think.

Just my 2 cts.

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Post #: 18
RE: What is this? - 2/2/2012 2:23:46 PM   
Shark7


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Status: offline 		I think it might be an Heinkel He-115.

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Post #: 19
RE: What is this? - 2/2/2012 2:40:21 PM   
CT Grognard

 

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Status: offline 		Interesting, Shark7. I reckon you might be a close. Here's a view of the Heinkel He-115.


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Post #: 20
RE: What is this? - 2/2/2012 2:51:39 PM   
Cap Mandrake

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CT Grognard

Interesting, Shark7. I reckon you might be a close. Here's a view of the Heinkel He-115.




Yes, interesting. Look at the "rectangular" panel on the leading edge of the wings between the nacelle and the fuselage. It seems to match the panel which has been peeled up (to canibalize parts? or maybe for inspection?) in the wreck.

In the wreck, I think the wings near the fuselage do belong to the wrecked fuselage or they wouldn't be suspended in a coaxial fashion like that. Something very unpleasant did happen to the aircraft.


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Post #: 21
RE: What is this? - 2/2/2012 2:55:04 PM   
Cap Mandrake

 

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Status: offline 		Also the semi-rectangular fuselage seems to match if you take away the plexiglass nose which would be missing from the wreck.

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Post #: 22
RE: What is this? - 2/2/2012 3:07:13 PM   
CT Grognard

 

Posts: 579
Joined: 5/16/2010
From: Cape Town, South Africa
Status: offline 		Here's another view of the Heinkel He 115, so you can get a better idea of the fuselage
shape once the nose has been removed:

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Post #: 23
RE: What is this? - 2/2/2012 5:23:31 PM   
Apollo11


Posts: 21618
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Status: offline 		Hi all,

Very interesting - thanks guys!


Leo "Apollo11"

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Post #: 24
RE: What is this? - 2/2/2012 7:26:51 PM   
crsutton


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From: Maryland
Status: online 		I think the wings are set too low on the body to be an HE115. However, it is apparent that somebody was trying to perserve or salvage the wreck by mounting it on that wooden platform. You got to figure that in 1945-nobody was wasting time with any of the thousands of vanilla wrecks littering the ground. This plane must have been worth the effort. A prototype of some sort, perhaps.

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Post #: 25
RE: What is this? - 2/2/2012 7:50:05 PM   
Dili

 

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Status: offline 		Yeah i already had said the He115 above but the crsutton point about wing level and the size is what made me change to leo451.

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Post #: 26
RE: What is this? - 2/3/2012 6:51:05 AM   
CT Grognard

 

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Status: offline 		Here are some photo's of the Liore et Olivier 451:




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Post #: 27
RE: What is this? - 2/4/2012 9:12:00 PM   
Dili

 

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Status: offline 		I don't think it can be a Leo with that engine nacelles.

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Post #: 28
RE: What is this? - 2/4/2012 11:10:06 PM   
Jaroen


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Status: offline 		@Dili
How about the window frames on the front side?
Where do you figure the nose is cut to not see those side windows but a full cockpit with room to spare?
In addition, the LeO looks oval shaped and not round/squared.

But those engine nacelles, yes!

Here's an earlier version of the He-111 I was talking about:






Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Jaroen -- 2/5/2012 8:57:29 PM >

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Post #: 29
RE: What is this? - 2/5/2012 4:24:13 AM   
geofflambert


Posts: 2151
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From: St. Louis
Status: offline 		Crap if I know, but let's check with the experts:






Attachment (1)

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