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The pesky units behind your lines... - 1/30/2012 10:23:49 AM   
wodin


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Status: offline 		Though those two or three units that can get left after your attack behind your lines can be a right royal pain which I suppose is great in a partisan warfare scenario but I do feel that they should be making their way back trying to avoid detection to their own lines, as I'm sure is more likely the case in real life. I expect a coy of troops who got left behind after an attack and found themselves behind enemy lines would try and make their way back as quickly and as covered (can't think of another word) as possible.
When it manages to disrupt your supply column I'd expect in real life you'd send out some infantry support|armour out with the supply convoy if you knew the last one was destroyed and you had reports that there where still enemy units out there. Trouble is you can't send out some protection with your convoys. Surely convoys had their own troops or troops assigned to them to give support during an attack which weren't made up of troops from the actual attack. Anyway I still feel the enemy would be trying to get back to their lines without bringing attention to themselves as they'd have no idea how many enemy troops (yours) are out there.


Thoughts?

< Message edited by wodin -- 1/30/2012 10:29:04 AM >

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RE: The pesky units behind your lines... - 1/30/2012 11:13:46 PM   
Deathtreader


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Status: offline 		Hi,

Yup.........those pesky enemy remnants behind my lines have been a bane of mine in many a game over the years -- trashing my supply columns and calling in enemy arty strikes. I almost always have to manually micro-manage a few units to manually hunt them them down. Can be very work intensive and frustrating at times.

There should be someway to address this surely. Maybe a new "pursue" order where you target the enemy unit and your tasked unit(s) try to chase it down.

Or maybe a new "patrol" order whereby you can designate a route with waypoints or something, or a geographic grid/zone or something, (anything!!) and the tasked unit(s) would patrol the route or grid/zone and automatically attack enemies found until otherwise ordered. I've tried to do this now by using "move with attack" orders and a path with many many waypoints thru what I think is the infested area. It usually works too....but again is manually intensive in plotting and supervising. I'd like something that I could arrange with just a few clicks and not have to constantly supervise because I know my AI subordinate will do this endlessly until I order otherwise.

What do others think??

Rob.



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RE: The pesky units behind your lines... - 1/31/2012 12:06:25 AM   
Rbug

 

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Status: offline 		I agree with you guys.

It's one thing to bypass a legitimate fit and able fighting force on the way to an objective. The attacker does that at his own peril. But to overrun an enemy unit and send it off into the hinterlands for a lengthy rout recovery only to have it slip back onto a supply line and cause havoc is another. Why that unit (or units) is able to have so much supply of its own to cause these disruptions after having been routed from the initial battle confounds me also.

Having said all that, I must tell you that I think this game and engine are top notch. And I wish the developers continued success.

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RE: The pesky units behind your lines... - 1/31/2012 1:09:26 AM   
wodin


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Status: offline 		Even if it's a healthy unit I truly believe that in real life once the commander knows they are well behind enemy lines he'd do his utmost to get back rather than hang about attacking convoys and whatever may come along.

SO it's not even a case of not having pursuit orders. You shouldn't really have to do anything to try and destroy them, they should be trying to get back to their own lines going by an avoidance route.

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RE: The pesky units behind your lines... - 1/31/2012 10:06:21 AM   
jomni


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Status: offline 		You could do the same yourself against your oppoent. Will you complain? The computer is just playing smart and using the system to it's advantage.  So the lesson is to just leave some troops behind to guard our gains.

I am not speaking about realisim... 

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RE: The pesky units behind your lines... - 1/31/2012 10:39:15 AM   
wodin


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Status: offline 		Well thats down to the player, however I want the game to be as realistic as possible, considering it's one of the game highlights the AI, I'd like it to react in a realistic manner when possible. If someone wants to do that in multiplayer then thats fine, though I doubt I'd play them again. However the thing with mulitplayer is you can set house rules...you can't do that with the AI.

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RE: The pesky units behind your lines... - 1/31/2012 1:12:53 PM   
downtown


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Status: offline 		I tend to agree that most units would likely look to return to their lines once discovering that the rest of their units have retreated. But I also tend to think this would not always be the case. I think the type of unit and aggressiveness of the commander could have something to do with this as well. I think an infantry company that has just gotten the hell beat out of it would have a much better chance of looking to retreat to its lines than an SS company that may have just missed most of the combat and sees an opportunity to disrupt the enemy now that they are behind his lines. So in essence I think it would also depend on the type of unit and the makeup of its commanding officer whether or not it would retreat as soon as possible or move toward the enemy to disrupt him as much as possible.

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RE: The pesky units behind your lines... - 1/31/2012 2:00:31 PM   
wodin


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Status: offline 		I don't know you know, in War movies maybe...in real life, I think they'd try and get back to their lines no matter how aggresive the commander, there not special forces here were talking about but a Coy commander of an Army company most likely civvies in uniform. His me I'm sure would be his first priority, which would mean making their way back as quickly but as quietly as possible to help reinforce the line.

We must remember each scenario we play is a small part of the battle, later on another wave of attackers will be coming along most likely to carry forward the attack which would overrun that coy in no time...also even if there wasn't that Coy commander wouldn't know that, all he knows is a wave of Germans\Americans or whoever have just battered their way through the lines and could be any number of miles further on. Moving towards the enemy would all all essence be a suicide mission for a Inf coy or considered one once you hit a convoy every rear echelon soldier would be out for you and any follow on units for the attack would be designated to wipe you out on the way to the forward lines..you need small unit of special forces to do that job who can hit and run.

I suppose the could hit any on the way back but again would it be worth giving out your position and that your out there as you have to get through the battle line at some point...and you wouldn't really want them to be aware your out there and on your way back.

< Message edited by wodin -- 1/31/2012 2:09:57 PM >

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RE: The pesky units behind your lines... - 1/31/2012 2:33:29 PM   
Lieste

 

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Status: offline 		This is only a serious issue if you are routinely failing to retain a strong reserve though -  the operational plan has failings that are much greater than any possible ambiguity in the tactical model. Under normal circumstances the reserves and IDF units can be used to thoroughly secure the routes to the rear of the front-line troops, and if the attack is broad enough for the enemy to worry about supply to his 'cut-off' units (or rather at night as well as in daytime), his routing troops will tend to surrender/disband or retreat to safety.

Serious problems can arise with narrow spearheads, but just who is operating in whose rear then?

Each man in a routing unit will have one of 4 fates:
KIA/WIA (hit by enemy fire/bridge demolition/friendly artillery etc)
disband (leaves a routing unit and is added to the strength of a suitable acceptor unit nearby)
surrender (leaves a routing unit and is added to enemy 'kills total' as surrendered)
remains in the unit and eventually the unit enters recovery.

The fate of the unit depends on the 'decision' of the rump unit once strength is below the minimum threshold...
If the "last man out" surrenders, then the remnants and the unit as a whole are listed as surrendered - more surrender when isolated than are disbanded or killed.
If the 'last man out' disbands into a nearby unit, then the remnant of the unit (less surplus equipment) is marked as disbanded - most men lost near the front-line disband.
If the last man/vehicle is KIA/WIA then the unit is destroyed by fire - this is probably the rarest listed.





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RE: The pesky units behind your lines... - 1/31/2012 3:49:09 PM   
wodin


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Status: offline 		Again I'm not talking about a routing unit here..more a unit that was bypassed during the attack. the scenarios we play are just a small pert of the battle and there are usually follow units that come along that aren't covered in the scenarios period of time. So those odd units bypassed could well be finished off by said units. My thinking is then that surely any unit bypassed and finds itself well behind enemy lines all on it's lonesome would and should try and find their way back rather than mill around and most likely inadvertently disrupt supply convoys (said in context of game as I doubt very much the AI uses said units to attack abstract convoys). Usually thats what the units end up doing, break supply even though I'm sure that isn't their task, there just milling about behind the lines. Also as said I really doubt if they where attacking convoys that would happen in real life.

Also in the game you convoys have no support attached...which is unlikely in real life I expect.

< Message edited by wodin -- 1/31/2012 3:52:02 PM >

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RE: The pesky units behind your lines... - 1/31/2012 4:33:46 PM   
GBS

 

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Status: offline 		Wodin, wouldn't you think that supply convoys would reroute in order to deliver supply? The on screen line showing the depot connection is as the crow flies but we know that's not the route the convoys take. It would seem that if a roadway or track was blocked that convoys would try to find another way and arrive at a later time rather than suspending and returning to the depot.

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RE: The pesky units behind your lines... - 1/31/2012 5:20:39 PM   
Major SNAFU


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quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

I don't know you know, in War movies maybe...in real life, I think they'd try and get back to their lines no matter how aggresive the commander, there not special forces here were talking about but a Coy commander of an Army company most likely civvies in uniform. His me I'm sure would be his first priority, which would mean making their way back as quickly but as quietly as possible to help reinforce the line.

We must remember each scenario we play is a small part of the battle, later on another wave of attackers will be coming along most likely to carry forward the attack which would overrun that coy in no time...also even if there wasn't that Coy commander wouldn't know that, all he knows is a wave of Germans\Americans or whoever have just battered their way through the lines and could be any number of miles further on. Moving towards the enemy would all all essence be a suicide mission for a Inf coy or considered one once you hit a convoy every rear echelon soldier would be out for you and any follow on units for the attack would be designated to wipe you out on the way to the forward lines..you need small unit of special forces to do that job who can hit and run.

I suppose the could hit any on the way back but again would it be worth giving out your position and that your out there as you have to get through the battle line at some point...and you wouldn't really want them to be aware your out there and on your way back.


Um, so my feeling on this is that this will be difficult to program in a way that will make anyone really happy. I don't mind having to hunt these units down, mainly because the AI is so good at other things that I enjoy figuring out what units to use for security and how to set up reasonable security. I would like to see something like a security zone exuded by each unit that I could turn on/off both in terms of seeing it and in terms of affecting the unit. If a units was "on security" it would be dispersed within the zone (it would be great if we could shape the zone or pick from some shapes) and would not be easily recalled to movement, etc. It would also be vulnerable to attack because of being dispersed.

However, I also think that there is a big devil in the details here. I would expect poorly trained, in experienced units to want to rejoin ASAP. Heavilly blooded would balance out creating havoc vs. rejoining the line, on on the way thereto. But Special Forces/Commando/Marines/Airborne would not feel this need so long as they had some supply and were able to maintain morale. They would perhaps see this as an opportunity to exploit rather than a reason to panic and withdraw.

Just my 2 cents...




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RE: The pesky units behind your lines... - 1/31/2012 5:29:09 PM   
wodin


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Status: offline 		Snafu,

I agree Special Forces\Commando ad Airborne are trained in working behind enemy lines. However an Inf line coy...doubtful. Maybe in the movies or novels.

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RE: The pesky units behind your lines... - 1/31/2012 6:32:05 PM   
freeboy

 

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Status: online 		sometimes it is hard for cut off units to know where the lines are.. and in the confusion one chioce is to surrender but in the other direction the choice is to engage the attackers... plenty of examples .. just look at the Bulge defenders...
I tend to appreciate, just for me and not sayingthis is right or wrong, a strong computer oponent....

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RE: The pesky units behind your lines... - 1/31/2012 6:41:41 PM   
gabeeg


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Status: offline 		I tend to agree that I would expect enemy units trapped behind the lines to attempt to make their way back to their own lines...unless it is a large formation (...regiment or division). My question is, won't the game take care of this itself after a time as these behind the lines units will hopefully have their supply cut and ammo and fuel will eventually get to critical levels...though this does not solve the biggest issue with enemy units behind your lines which is its disruption to your own supply lines...

Still it does not really bother me too much.

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RE: The pesky units behind your lines... - 2/1/2012 1:14:52 AM   
jomni


Posts: 2518
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Status: offline 		As wodin said, the strength of the game is in the AI.  But contrary to the point he's making, this pesky behavior is actually a good indication that the AI knows your weaknesses and you must watch out for this.  If you nerf this ability for the sake of realism, then woudn't the game be more predictable and easier?

It's a give or take situaion between realism and flexibility (surprise factor and replayability) and I would favor felxibility.  On the other hand, I have no problem with people who opts for realism instead.

< Message edited by jomni -- 2/1/2012 1:24:37 AM >

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RE: The pesky units behind your lines... - 2/1/2012 4:50:46 AM   
benpark


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Status: offline 		Given the time frame of the game (hours and days rather than weeks), I think it's acceptable that enemy units retain fighting capacity when "cut off". The supply hit they take should suffice to take some of the wind out of them.

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RE: The pesky units behind your lines... - 2/1/2012 8:33:18 AM   
wodin


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Status: offline 		I agree with everything being said about the unit being able to fight. I agree it makes the AI tougher, however I don't think the AI is keeping it there to attack convoys I'm sure that's just a side effect from it being there (though Dave can say for sure) and if it is attacking convoys I don't count that as being realistic and I'd rather they just made their own way back to their lines. I want them to act in a realistic fashion, whether it makes the AI tougher or easier isn't the point, in away isn't that a cheating AI if it does things to make it harder that wouldn't actually happen which is something I believe this game doesn't do unlike others.

Anyway it's not a major issue...just at times a mild annoyance and having some kind of Autistic traits annoys me more because I can see it and it doesn't look right.

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RE: The pesky units behind your lines... - 2/4/2012 1:36:07 PM   
RockinHarry


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Status: offline 		Not sure if the game AI has something like "frontline awareness" at all. It´s main drive is toward the victory locations, which are invisible to us human players, so there might rise the impression that the AI attempts to cut lines, while it rather attempts to exploit to an (invisible) VicLoc farther to the rear, or attack from different angle to a more forward VicLoc.

Think many times the AI has single units way forward, behind friendly "frontlines", it´s cut off "advance guards" who appear to start operating independently after some time, if the AI can´t get following up units forward. It´s mostly high mobile units and exploitation range is just few km, so I don´t have any issues with it. Fuel and ammo s/b sufficient for such short range exploitation into territory, free of strong enemy combat units.

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