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R&D Investment Returns - 1/28/2012 4:26:17 PM   
Icedawg


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I didn't want to hijack Miller's thread on R&D repairs, so I'll start a new one here.

In another thread, Captain Cruft indicated that he can get some serious use out of the late war Japanese fighters by accelerating the heck out of them. Back in WiTP days, I was always under the impression that R&D was a waste of time. Even with heavy investment, players were only able to accelerate planes by a month or two. Has something been changed going from WiTP to AE? Is it now easier to get planes types accelerated by significant amounts of time? If so, this is going to cause a radical change in my aircraft produciton philosophy.
Post #: 1
RE: R&D Investment Returns - 1/28/2012 6:09:40 PM   
Feurer Krieg


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http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2825013

This thread has it explained right at the top.

_____________________________


Upper portion used with permission of www.subart.net and www.skybirdart.com, copyright John Meeks

(in reply to Icedawg)
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RE: R&D Investment Returns - 1/28/2012 7:07:40 PM   
Icedawg


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Feurer Krieg

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2825013

This thread has it explained right at the top.


Thanks. That was very helpful, and it will alter my thinking on late war airframes. They do seem to be worth the effort now.

BTW, how did you find this thread? I tried using the forum search function, but couldn't find anything useful. (In fact whenever I use the search function, it's ususally pretty worthless. For example, I recently tried finding some information on PP costs to change from one aircraft type to another. So, I typed in PP in the search field thinking if anything, I'd get way too many results. Needless to say I was amazed when the result came back with a message telling me that no entries matched my search request! I know people discuss PPs very often on this forum, so I find it quite odd that the search engine couldn't find anything. )

(in reply to Feurer Krieg)
Post #: 3
RE: R&D Investment Returns - 1/28/2012 7:38:46 PM   
Dan Nichols


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Here is the proper posting by michaelm:

Here is the revised sequence that was valid before beta p8, and will be again with beta q4. The missing step from earlier postings in in BOLD.

quote:

In simple terms
(a.1) Daily number of initial devices from factory is as with a/c production [ (active devices + random(30))/30]. If this number is 0, or there are any damaged devices present, then no R&D will result this turn from this factory. [This agrees with the manual ]
(a.2) A factory will then produce a random R&D between 1 and the number of devices from step (a.1) ie 1 device = 1, 2 devices = 1,2, 3 devices =1,2,3, 4 devices = 1,2,3,4 10 devices = 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10 etc.
(b) The random R&D is then divided by 10. Any random R&D of less than 10 will be '0', otherwise it will be the ten's component of the random R&D.
(c) If there are no damaged devices in factory (this is a given as there must be NO damaged ones present), add '1' to the number from (b).
(d) If the number from (c) exceeds 3, it is capped at '3'.

The number from (d) is added to the a/c development counter - this will be a number from 1 to 3 inclusive.
Once the counter exceeds 100, it moves the available date sooner by a month and resets the development counter.



It is possible to get '0' R&D now, as the step (a.1) was being bypassed post-p8 due to a bug introduced in p8.

Thank you to those who kept asking me to check the code.
The misplaced '{}' that caused this was very difficult to pick up. I was looking at it all week and just couldn't see it in the current code.

Based on the proper formula, to get a possible additional +1 from (b), it would require you to have a daily production of at least 10+.
Less than 10 would just give you '1' R&D daily from step (c).


You can find it in this thread, post # 5 http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2908046&mpage=1&key=&#

< Message edited by Dan Nichols -- 1/28/2012 7:39:23 PM >

(in reply to Icedawg)
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RE: R&D Investment Returns - 1/29/2012 1:05:10 AM   
GreyJoy


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Don 't ask me how but i can assure you that, if managed properly, you can advance late war fighters ( shidens, ki-83 etc) by 14 months!!
In my game i'm facing hordes of shidens in october 1944 !

(in reply to Dan Nichols)
Post #: 5
RE: R&D Investment Returns - 1/29/2012 6:47:11 AM   
sanderz

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

Don 't ask me how but i can assure you that, if managed properly, you can advance late war fighters ( shidens, ki-83 etc) by 14 months!!
In my game i'm facing hordes of shidens in october 1944 !


Does anyone know what sort of R&D investment you need to achieve this? He must have been VERY focused.

In his game with Greyjoy (great AAR by the way) didn't he capture a LOT of territorry - did all these extra resources help him achieve all this extra R&D?



< Message edited by sanderz -- 1/29/2012 6:48:12 AM >

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RE: R&D Investment Returns - 1/29/2012 6:49:37 AM   
awaw

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

Don 't ask me how but i can assure you that, if managed properly, you can advance late war fighters ( shidens, ki-83 etc) by 14 months!!
In my game i'm facing hordes of shidens in october 1944 !



I think if a game is played with the current research rules, it is not viable for the jap player to accelerate ki83 and shindens by that much. Tonys yes, but not the rest. Yours is a separate case where rader had the advantage of a wrong formula in the mid-game. Even then, as we can see it is still a uphill struggle for Japan.

(in reply to GreyJoy)
Post #: 7
RE: R&D Investment Returns - 1/29/2012 1:41:51 PM   
SuluSea


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quote:

ORIGINAL: awaw


quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

Don 't ask me how but i can assure you that, if managed properly, you can advance late war fighters ( shidens, ki-83 etc) by 14 months!!
In my game i'm facing hordes of shidens in october 1944 !



I think if a game is played with the current research rules, it is not viable for the jap player to accelerate ki83 and shindens by that much. Tonys yes, but not the rest. Yours is a separate case where rader had the advantage of a wrong formula in the mid-game. Even then, as we can see it is still a uphill struggle for Japan.


This is exactly correct , who knows how many months he advanced because of the bugged part of the game. The continuing posting of how far rader accelerated his late war airframes is misleading to some if information about the bug is not included.

I'd be surprised if someone could bump up the Shinden that far but I'd note if they did it be at the expense of other valuable assets in the Nippon war chest.





< Message edited by SuluSea -- 1/29/2012 1:47:49 PM >

(in reply to awaw)
Post #: 8
RE: R&D Investment Returns - 1/29/2012 2:38:58 PM   
GreyJoy


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It doesn't seem so guys.

Here's a quote from Damian (who knows a lot about japanese production afaik) made in my AAR...

quote:



quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy


IRC Damian found a way to still do it and this had nothing to do with non repaired factories. I could be wrong but that was my last info.

Moi ?
Won't hijack too much ...

Yes still possible to get a year or so early on some of the models. Same is possible in witp, AE, realistic or non-realistic, latest beta or 1106i etc. With the right knowledge of course ;-)

There was a beta some time back which had a flaw which allowed factories not fully repaired to provide points toward R&D. That was stamped on long ago.

I've been saying for a long time that it is still too easy to achieve this.
It's too easy to repair R&D factories (OK OK so it seems pretty hard for newbies but focus 10*30 factories and given enough time ... ), coupled with R&D bonus points provided from large engine production(Yes it's true!), stretched even further with the free upgrade to fully repaired factories along the path (not that that happened in this case) and you've got a recipe for a year+ advancement.

I've written what changes I'd like to make elsewhere - so I won't turn this into an R&D debate.

In the end, the Allies have so much ... used effectively - I don't see this as a gamebreaker but it's just not realistic enough for my tastes.

About to fly out of Incheon [quote/]

(in reply to SuluSea)
Post #: 9
RE: R&D Investment Returns - 1/29/2012 3:04:00 PM   
SuluSea


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I read that as well, Damian has taught me almost everything I know about R&D but certainly he didn't teach me everything he knows.  

The Shinden isn't within an upgrade path of an earlier airframe so exploitation would be limited to factories reparing as the developers coded (without bugs).

Hopefully he finds his way to this thread and contributes as I've agreed with most if not all of his ideas for fixing possible abuses within the system. To my knowledge the Shinden doesn't fall into category of possible abuse issues we've corresponded on.

If I were the allied player I'd be looking for exploitation within an upgrade path A6M3, Ki-43, Ki-44 ,Ki-61, Ki-84 and so on.

If  the axis player  dedicated an extreme amount of factories to research of a couple airframes -

1. It would be costing the player supply and HI any time the change is made plus 1k per repaired point
2. They'd be produced at the cost of other valuable airframes
3. Airframe R&D a couple years out repairs at a snails pace. 

Again, this is just my opinion but to keyhole one or two planes and pointing out "look at what japan is capable of" is not painting a clear picture.

< Message edited by SuluSea -- 1/29/2012 3:07:39 PM >

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RE: R&D Investment Returns - 1/29/2012 3:12:37 PM   
GreyJoy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SuluSea

I read that as well, Damian has taught me almost everything I know about R&D but certainly he didn't teach me everything he knows.  

The Shinden isn't within an upgrade path of an earlier airframe so exploitation would be limited to factories reparing as the developers coded (without bugs).

Hopefully he finds his way to this thread and contributes as I've agreed with most if not all of his ideas for fixing possible abuses within the system. To my knowledge the Shinden doesn't fall into category of possible abuse issues we've corresponded on.

If I were the allied player I'd be looking for exploitation within an upgrade path A6M3, Ki-43, Ki-44 ,Ki-61, Ki-84 and so on.

If  the axis player  dedicated an extreme amount of factories to research of a couple airframes -

1. It would be costing the player supply and HI any time the change is made plus 1k per repaired point
2. They'd be produced at the cost of other valuable airframes
3. Airframe R&D a couple years out repairs at a snails pace. 

Again, this is just my opinion but to keyhole one or two planes and pointing out "look at what japan is capable of" is not painting a clear picture.


Sorry mate, i admit i know nothing about handling japanese economy and industry, so i simply reported what i've witnessed. I'm soory if this didn't contribute to clarify the general picture

(in reply to SuluSea)
Post #: 11
RE: R&D Investment Returns - 1/29/2012 3:20:50 PM   
SuluSea


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No need for apologies Greyjoy, I've enjoyed what I've seen of you game immensely and enjoy talking about Japan's economy  In no way did I think you were intentionally misleading anyone. I hope I didn't come across that way and if you or another member got that message from my rebuttles my apology is offered.

(in reply to GreyJoy)
Post #: 12
RE: R&D Investment Returns - 1/29/2012 3:26:51 PM   
ny59giants


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MichaelM made a change in R&D back a few beta patches ago. Like Damian stated, you get a bonus in terms of "developmental points" from having extra engine production. I don't know what the exact number of engines that has to be, but I see it in my Scenario 2 PBEM that is in mid-April '43.

Take my R&D efforts on the Frank. I have 5 factories (60 x 1 and 30 x 4). I have the size 60 and one size 30 fully repaired with two more getting close. You would expect to get 3 "developmental points" per day towards the magical 100 to get a months advance. With the extra engine production bonus, I get 4 points per day. Thus, I will have it move forward every 25 days to a month closer. A third factory has only one more point to repair and then it will be every 20 days.

If Rader has done the same thing for some late war airframes, then there is a good chance that he has gotten over a 6 month advance on airframe availability.

_____________________________


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Post #: 13
RE: R&D Investment Returns - 1/29/2012 3:28:09 PM   
GreyJoy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SuluSea

No need for apologies Greyjoy, I've enjoyed what I've seen of you game immensely and enjoy talking about Japan's economy  In no way did I think you were intentionally misleading anyone. I hope I didn't come across that way and if you or another member got that message from my rebuttles my apology is offered.


No prob sulusea
Thx

(in reply to SuluSea)
Post #: 14
RE: R&D Investment Returns - 1/29/2012 4:47:46 PM   
kmitahj

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants
Take my R&D efforts on the Frank. I have 5 factories (60 x 1 and 30 x 4). I have the size 60 and one size 30 fully repaired with two more getting close. You would expect to get 3 "developmental points" per day towards the magical 100 to get a months advance. With the extra engine production bonus, I get 4 points per day. Thus, I will have it move forward every 25 days to a month closer. A third factory has only one more point to repair and then it will be every 20 days.


Just a small note: with 1x60 & 1x30 fully repaired you should get only 2 r/d pts per day - without engine bonus that is. In production 1x60 would produce steady 2 planes per day (with occasional 3 planes once a month) but in R&D mode it is still only 1 r/d pt a day just like 30(0) factory.

Engine bonus for plane R&D research sounds very good conceptually but I'm afraid it adds up to the too easy, too cheap feeling ( and I say this as full heart JFB). And ability to switch R&D factories up in the upgrade path with no cost (no damage) presents so big of an exploit that it virtually forces scenario designers to keep upgrade paths short - often artifically short - just to avoid its abuse. IMO it looks like putting a cart before the horse (and may also influence production factory upgrades).

Personally I would really like to get rid of so called Realistic R&D (this would allow to remove r&d upgrade switch exploit) and instead introduce game option setting which would limit the number of r&d factories researching single airframe at the same time. These who hate R&D could set it to zero which would forbid any changes to scenario r&d setup, these who like freestyle would set it to number higher then total number of available factories and these who like to keep it somewhat realistic would set it accordingly. IMO limit of 4-6 r&d factories for single airframe would give quite realistic results.

(in reply to ny59giants)
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RE: R&D Investment Returns - 1/29/2012 5:45:47 PM   
SuluSea


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Guys , I was under the impression that the engine bonus was an idea Micheal had considered and did not make it into a beta patch. I assume I'm off base from reading some of the responses here.

Thanks!

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RE: R&D Investment Returns - 1/29/2012 7:59:12 PM   
pompack


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SuluSea

Guys , I was under the impression that the engine bonus was an idea Micheal had considered and did not make it into a beta patch. I assume I'm off base from reading some of the responses here.

Thanks!


I thought the same thing

(in reply to SuluSea)
Post #: 17
RE: R&D Investment Returns - 1/29/2012 8:52:33 PM   
Dan Nichols


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SuluSea

Guys , I was under the impression that the engine bonus was an idea Micheal had considered and did not make it into a beta patch. I assume I'm off base from reading some of the responses here.

Thanks!


I did too, and can't find anything about it.

(in reply to SuluSea)
Post #: 18
RE: R&D Investment Returns - 1/29/2012 9:54:17 PM   
ny59giants


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Here are my Franks for the last few weeks. You can see the 4 points per day.




Attachment (1)

_____________________________


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Post #: 19
RE: R&D Investment Returns - 1/29/2012 9:59:44 PM   
ny59giants


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Here are my Frances for the last few weeks. Somehow, I went from 2 to 4 points per day, every day once the second factory repaired. I would have expected just 3 points, but for some reason I get four.




Attachment (1)

_____________________________


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RE: R&D Investment Returns - 1/29/2012 10:16:53 PM   
PaxMondo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SuluSea

Guys , I was under the impression that the engine bonus was an idea Micheal had considered and did not make it into a beta patch.

Not aware that it has gone into the patch. Michael considered it, but I don't beleive it was been added.


I would like to see an AAR with someone pursuing this production strategy though (putting a horde of R&D onto just one air frame to try and maximize its advance). I think it would put to rest a lot of threads on this topic.

_____________________________

Pax

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RE: R&D Investment Returns - 1/29/2012 10:19:38 PM   
Dan Nichols


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

Here are my Franks for the last few weeks. You can see the 4 points per day.



What version of the game are you using?

What do your Nakajima Ha-45 factories look like?

< Message edited by Dan Nichols -- 1/29/2012 10:23:41 PM >

(in reply to ny59giants)
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RE: R&D Investment Returns - 1/29/2012 10:26:11 PM   
sanderz

 

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Is that the beta version of Tracker 1.9?

(in reply to ny59giants)
Post #: 23
RE: R&D Investment Returns - 1/29/2012 10:34:42 PM   
nashvillen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sanderz

Is that the beta version of Tracker 1.9?


I can't get 1.8 to do that... Must be!

Tracker 1.9

_____________________________


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Post #: 24
RE: R&D Investment Returns - 1/29/2012 11:35:05 PM   
ny59giants


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I'm working on a mod with Damian, so I got an advance file of Tracker. One of the "perks."




Attachment (1)

_____________________________


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RE: R&D Investment Returns - 1/30/2012 3:50:37 AM   
n01487477


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Thanks Guys for the compliments.

The Engine bonus is still there. Here is my test under the latest beta. Note when Engines hit 500, the R&D bonus kicks in. I'll come back later and say what I'd like done to the R&D model (again) (as you all know I'm advocating a much stricter ability). Gotta head out for a bit ...




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

-Damian-
EconDoc
TrackerAE
Tutes&Java

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Post #: 26
RE: R&D Investment Returns - 1/30/2012 10:41:59 PM   
rader


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SuluSea

I think if a game is played with the current research rules, it is not viable for the jap player to accelerate ki83 and shindens by that much. Tonys yes, but not the rest. Yours is a separate case where rader had the advantage of a wrong formula in the mid-game. Even then, as we can see it is still a uphill struggle for Japan.


I doubt it made much difference. We used this patch for all of 3 turns, and were one of the first groups to point out problems with it...

Try putting 17 size 30+ factories on Shinden R&D (with tons of Ha-43 engines) and start your research on December 7, 1941. A year or so is exactly what you get.

(in reply to SuluSea)
Post #: 27
RE: R&D Investment Returns - 1/30/2012 10:47:34 PM   
n01487477


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rader
quote:

ORIGINAL: SuluSea

I think if a game is played with the current research rules, it is not viable for the jap player to accelerate ki83 and shindens by that much. Tonys yes, but not the rest. Yours is a separate case where rader had the advantage of a wrong formula in the mid-game. Even then, as we can see it is still a uphill struggle for Japan.


I doubt it made much difference. We used this patch for all of 3 turns, and were one of the first groups to point out problems with it...

Try putting 17 size 30+ factories on Shinden R&D (with tons of Ha-43 engines) and start your research on December 7, 1941. A year or so is exactly what you get.

Exactly what I thought you had done...a lot of investment for a good return. Remember people -> The opportunity cost is high to achieve these results.

_____________________________

-Damian-
EconDoc
TrackerAE
Tutes&Java

(in reply to rader)
Post #: 28
RE: R&D Investment Returns - 1/30/2012 11:39:44 PM   
SuluSea


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rader


quote:

ORIGINAL: SuluSea

I think if a game is played with the current research rules, it is not viable for the jap player to accelerate ki83 and shindens by that much. Tonys yes, but not the rest. Yours is a separate case where rader had the advantage of a wrong formula in the mid-game. Even then, as we can see it is still a uphill struggle for Japan.


I doubt it made much difference. We used this patch for all of 3 turns, and were one of the first groups to point out problems with it...

Try putting 17 size 30+ factories on Shinden R&D (with tons of Ha-43 engines) and start your research on December 7, 1941. A year or so is exactly what you get.


Actually those are awaw's words but I agreed with it with the below.

quote:

This is exactly correct , who knows how many months he advanced because of the bugged part of the game. The continuing posting of how far rader accelerated his late war airframes is misleading to some if information about the bug is not included.

I'd be surprised if someone could bump up the Shinden that far but I'd note if they did it be at the expense of other valuable assets in the Nippon war chest.


Rader, I'm glad you chimed in - According to my math you invested 22% of your starting R&D facilities on that airframe IMO there should be no complaints about you having it.

(in reply to rader)
Post #: 29
RE: R&D Investment Returns - 1/31/2012 2:15:59 AM   
awaw

 

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quote:

Try putting 17 size 30+ factories on Shinden R&D (with tons of Ha-43 engines) and start your research on December 7, 1941. A year or so is exactly what you get.


17 factory x size 30 = 500,000 supply for repairs, that is half the starting supply that Japan gets in scenario 1 (I am a scen 1 guy, not sure what that translates to in scen 2) That is a HUGE commitment. This is where I presume the extra supply from India made a difference, it allowed for a more bigger research base than what a "normal" Japanese perimeter would have been able to support.

I hope fow is not an issue here, but a 2nd point I will like to clarify is, with the above research plan, what was the date when the first factory is FULLY REPAIRED? By that same date, how many "advances" of Shinden have you collected?

(in reply to rader)
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