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The etiquette of surrender

 
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The etiquette of surrender - 1/28/2012 10:48:01 AM   
sillyflower


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Several AARs have discussed the problem of disappearing acts and when surrendering is acceptable in PvP, so I thought this topic deserved its own thread. Very few 41Gc games are getting beyond 10% of the 225 turns

This is NOT about when players have to withdraw for proper RL reasons but simply when they are not doing as well as hoped, or simply disappear without trace.

Most of my games have been plagued with opponents giving up without any warning or at ridiculously early stages. I should make it clear that I'm very lucky in that all of my current opponents are tenacious players who don't give up. I've even had 2 germans give up after 3 turns, for example and one of those promised before I agreed to play him that he would fight to the bitter end. One

I have surrendered 1 game early (out of about 15 or so server games) after being comprehensively thrashed by Michael T. I made it clear I would play on if M had wanted me to, but he kindly (and rightly!) agreed there was no real point.

this is only a game and there is nothing anyone can do to stop people giving up but in my opinion this should be discouraged, and ground rules set at the start.

Here are my suggestions:

1 Players wanting a fight to the end should make that clear at the start and those not prepared to do likewise should not ask to play them.

2 where 1 player has a point at which he would want to gve up, that should be clear from the start. For example I had one who said he would surrender at the end of '43 if his russians were still bogged down in trench warfare. I was happy to agree that. Sadly this was not Baelfiin but I hope he reads this and sees the wisdom of that approach

3 RL takes precedence but opponents deserve some sort of explanation.

4 When a player changes his mind because he is not dinig well and no longer wants to play, he should ask their opponents if it's OK to surrender and opponent should accept, unless a compromise can be worked out. A little flexibility on both sides can make a nore satisfactory experience for both

5 disappearing acts without explanation, stopping answering emails etc are never acceptable.

6 those who resign games must use the resign button to do so, so the winner does not have to email slitherine to remove the game.

7 Posters on forums (especially testers????) should neither encourage players to resign or criticise either decisions to play on or arrangements made between players about the basis on which they agree to play on. It's their game, no one else's. NB it is perfectly acceptable to express a contrary opinion without being critical of the players.

8 If you are not sure about your willingness to stick at it, go with your doubts and either play PvP in shorter scenarios or at least be open with your intended opponent so you both know where you both stand.

I do not believe that any of these suggestions go beyond basic good manners. They are not intended to.

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Post: I am always fearful that when I put this game down on the table and people see the box-art they will think I am some kind of neo-Nazi

Reply: They already know you're a gamer. What other shame can possibly compare?
Post #: 1
RE: The etiquette of surrender - 1/28/2012 12:44:40 PM   
Pelton

 

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Nice list.

I have had a bunch end early, only one left without saying anything.

I have had allot end early 41, but thats fine with me.

As long as I get a PM or email saying I am over matched and think it would be a waste of both of ours time to go on I am happy.

In many games there comes a time and plase where the game is not fun for one side, or there is a major new patch that is released which totally changes the rule set of the game ( most old timers have had to deal with this) and ending all games is the smart thing to do.

You probably should add game changing patchs to your list.

Pelton

< Message edited by Pelton -- 1/28/2012 12:46:18 PM >


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(in reply to sillyflower)
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RE: The etiquette of surrender - 1/28/2012 2:50:04 PM   
sillyflower


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton

Nice list.

You probably should add game changing patchs to your list.

Pelton


thanks

I think big patches may be a good reason to agree to stop/restart, rather than a reason to surrender. After all, no GC is going to get from start to finish without several major patches during the game.

Actually there have been several major changes since I started playing Baelfiin but I'm keeping them up my sleeve as my excuse for calling the game null and void if he's ever looks like winning . I don't see how the game will be fair without my being able to get Hungarian hetzers

You have been luckier than me - most of my games have ended with silence despite my sending polite emails saying I don't mind if they are stopping playing, but I would like to know one way or the other. It is extremely rude not to respond.

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Post: I am always fearful that when I put this game down on the table and people see the box-art they will think I am some kind of neo-Nazi

Reply: They already know you're a gamer. What other shame can possibly compare?

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 3
RE: The etiquette of surrender - 1/28/2012 3:03:23 PM   
Flaviusx


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Sillyflower, if I think somebody is losing badly and a game has become uncompetitive, I am going to say so. People may choose to play on regardless, but should do so with open eyes. I'm not going to sugarcoat it, sorry.





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RE: The etiquette of surrender - 1/28/2012 4:03:33 PM   
Encircled


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From: Northern England
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Its a game

If one person isn't having any fun, then there isn't any point carrying on, however irritating it may be.

You should always tell your opponent though if you've had enough, just disappearing isn't on

(in reply to sillyflower)
Post #: 5
RE: The etiquette of surrender - 1/28/2012 4:43:44 PM   
elxaime

 

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I think it is fine for either party to concede, even if its very early. As Encircled points out, the idea of all this is to have fun. Sometimes someone doesn't realize what they have gotten into. Or (and this is most often true with monster or campaign scenarios) they realize the mere size of the scenario is more than they can handle and still have fun.

I do agree wholeheartedly that just disappearing is wrong. If it is me surrendering, I always try and send a note that includes my thoughts on how the game went, some exciting and fun points, and some admiration for the good play of my opponent.

Unfortunately, most of the games I pick up through the forums end with someone just stopping communications. Not even the briefest of notes.

So I have ended up just playing these games with family.

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Post #: 6
RE: The etiquette of surrender - 1/28/2012 6:51:00 PM   
sillyflower


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Sillyflower, if I think somebody is losing badly and a game has become uncompetitive, I am going to say so. People may choose to play on regardless, but should do so with open eyes. I'm not going to sugarcoat it, sorry.




I tried to distinguish between comment as you have described above ( 'you are doomed') , and encouraging someone to give in ( 'you should resign'). Former is fine, latter less so

< Message edited by sillyflower -- 1/28/2012 10:19:37 PM >


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Post: I am always fearful that when I put this game down on the table and people see the box-art they will think I am some kind of neo-Nazi

Reply: They already know you're a gamer. What other shame can possibly compare?

(in reply to Flaviusx)
Post #: 7
RE: The etiquette of surrender - 1/28/2012 9:21:57 PM   
Alfred

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sillyflower


... Actually there have been several major changes since I started playing Baelfiin but I'm keeping them up my sleeve as my excuse for calling the game null and void if he's ever looks like winning . I don't see how the game will be fair without my being able to get Hungarian hetzers ...



Hmm, seems to me that this thread is really a continuation of the issues canvassed in this earlier thread.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2878873&mpage=1&key=�

Alfred

PS: I do like the new addition of Hungarian hetzers, a very potent bargaining chip

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Post #: 8
RE: The etiquette of surrender - 1/28/2012 10:20:52 PM   
sillyflower


Posts: 1257
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From: London
Status: offline
Pretty good memory you have there, Alfred.

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Post: I am always fearful that when I put this game down on the table and people see the box-art they will think I am some kind of neo-Nazi

Reply: They already know you're a gamer. What other shame can possibly compare?

(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 9
RE: The etiquette of surrender - 1/28/2012 10:27:16 PM   
sillyflower


Posts: 1257
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: London
Status: offline
duplicate

< Message edited by sillyflower -- 1/29/2012 3:08:33 PM >


_____________________________

web exchange

Post: I am always fearful that when I put this game down on the table and people see the box-art they will think I am some kind of neo-Nazi

Reply: They already know you're a gamer. What other shame can possibly compare?

(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 10
RE: The etiquette of surrender - 1/28/2012 11:09:51 PM   
Michael T


Posts: 2294
Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline
I am fine when an opponent is upfront about it and offers a resignation, actually I would encourage that if the game is very one sided. But just dissapearing is rude and disrespectful.



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Post #: 11
RE: The etiquette of surrender - 1/29/2012 9:59:54 AM   
delatbabel


Posts: 1242
Joined: 7/30/2006
From: Sydney, Australia
Status: offline
Yes, disappearing is rude.  I have both conceded a game and had a game conceded to me after some horriffic mistake was made, with a "let's call you the winner on that one and start again" message.  I have no problems with that.  It is a sign something has been learned on both sides and both players will come out stronger for it.

Remember this is a game and not a real war.



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Post #: 12
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