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max reaction distance question - 1/28/2012 3:08:34 AM   
hades1001

 

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In WITP, the max reaction distance is 6 hex, which is 360 mile.

In AE, the reaction distance is still 6 hex, whihc is only 276 miles now.

So, in WITP, when Japs try to strike from 5 hex away, my air combat TF has chance to react and engage the enemy.

However, in AE, Japs can strike from 10 hex away when Allies are limited to 7 hex. And the max reaction distance is still 6 hex which makes it impossible to react to enemy carriers.

I don't think any carrier TF commander will just sit there and not try to attack the enemy carriers.

Since each hex in AE is smaller, why still keep max reaction distance to be 6? Is there a reason behind this?

< Message edited by hades1001 -- 1/28/2012 3:11:37 AM >
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RE: max reaction distance question - 1/28/2012 3:44:52 AM   
witpqs

 

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One small correction. In WITP the hex size was 60nm (nautical miles) also known as 69mi (statute miles).

In AE the hex size is 40nm also known as 46mi. Ship and aircraft type displays in AE always show nautical miles, while land unit type displays always show statute miles.

So, in WITP 6 hexes is 360nm. In AE 6 hexes is 240nm. That is 414mi versus 276mi.

As for "why", I'll let someone else answer that.

(in reply to hades1001)
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RE: max reaction distance question - 1/28/2012 4:04:00 AM   
Don Bowen


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Yes, there is a reason.

In WITP all TF movement occurs in one jump, and reaction is only from the end of the jump.

In AE, TFs move one hex at a time and reaction is checked for each hex of movement.

Having said that, there are still some issues with reaction. Many, many discussions during development on this one.

If a TF has a max reaction of 6, should it only react six hexes FROM THE INTIAL START POINT, six hexes FROM EACH HEX ALONG THE TF PATH, or six hexes FROM THE CURRENT POSITION OF THE TF (INCLUDING PRIOR REACTION).

Many people want to limit the reaction to six from the original reaction point, but the issue becomes less clear as the TF reacts. What if, for instance, the TF reacts 6 hexes toward a big fat enemy transport TF. But, at the same time the TF is reacting, the enemy TF is moving. At the end of the 6-hex reaction, the enemy might be one or two hexes away. Should the TF continue to react? Should it terminate reaction based purely on distance? Should reaction continue until circumstances make it problematic (fuel, moving under enemy air cover)?

In the end, the answer to all these questions was maybe... The more aggressive the TF commander, the more likely he is to order continued reaction. The more unfavorable the reaction conditions, the less likely the reaction is to continue. Eventually the enemy will be engaged or the reaction will terminate.

That's why.

(in reply to hades1001)
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RE: max reaction distance question - 1/28/2012 4:17:44 AM   
hades1001

 

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But in the carrier engagement, there is no way for Allies carriers to react to Jap carriers far away(say 8 hex). Since Allies has already been given a disadvantage of max 7 hex naval attack, meanwhile Japs carriers are highly likely to attack from 8-10 hex away.

In the scenario when Japs can hit Allies from long range, and Allies can't counter attack due to the range limit. In WITP Allies at least has a chance to react, but in AE even this chance was stripped.

Should the reaction range for air combat TF be larger so that Allies can have a chance to react?

The 7 hex limit is really huge disadvantage for Allies and I feel "the can't react issue" is " a lit bit too much"

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RE: max reaction distance question - 1/28/2012 4:32:49 AM   
witpqs

 

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If a Japanese carriers is 8 hexes away, an Allied carrier only need react by 1 hex to make the distance be 7 hexes (8 - 1 = 7) which is the range limit for Allied carriers. An Allied carrier, depending on the settings the player gave it and circumstances, might react by up to 6 hexes making the range 2 hexes, getting even short ranged aircraft into range.

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RE: max reaction distance question - 1/28/2012 4:47:12 AM   
hades1001

 

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I don't think it react this way.

I have tested many times and the Allies carriers simply don't react with the most aggressive commander I can get,also Jap carriers are spotted.

Any example can support your claim witpqs? Please share it so I know I to set up the react distance.



< Message edited by hades1001 -- 1/28/2012 4:59:49 AM >

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RE: max reaction distance question - 1/28/2012 5:23:58 AM   
witpqs

 

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I am not making a claim. I am showing you the math. If you disagree with the math then show where the math is wrong.

You claimed at 8 hexes distance that 6 hex reaction is not enough. But 6 hex reaction makes 8 hexes become 2 hexes.

And now you claim that Allied carriers never react. I can not help you.

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RE: max reaction distance question - 1/28/2012 5:27:41 AM   
jcjordan

 

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Not an expert on the inner workings of the game but there's also the threat tolerance setting in the waypoint setting that may be keeping your TF from moving. Just a thought but could be wrong on that point.

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RE: max reaction distance question - 1/28/2012 5:34:55 AM   
hades1001

 

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I believe the 6 hex reaction distance means the carriers will react to any enemy carrier TF within 6 hex.
However, if the the enemy carrier is 8 hex away, it is out of the reaction range, so that my carriers won't react.
Did I make myself clear?

My question would be, has anyone seen carriers react to enemy that is more than 7/8 hex away? If this happened in other people's games. Then my theory will be proved to be wrong.


quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

I am not making a claim. I am showing you the math. If you disagree with the math then show where the math is wrong.

You claimed at 8 hexes distance that 6 hex reaction is not enough. But 6 hex reaction makes 8 hexes become 2 hexes.

And now you claim that Allied carriers never react. I can not help you.



< Message edited by hades1001 -- 1/28/2012 5:35:34 AM >

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RE: max reaction distance question - 1/28/2012 1:56:34 PM   
USS America


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hades1001

I believe the 6 hex reaction distance means the carriers will react to any enemy carrier TF within 6 hex.
However, if the the enemy carrier is 8 hex away, it is out of the reaction range, so that my carriers won't react.
Did I make myself clear?

My question would be, has anyone seen carriers react to enemy that is more than 7/8 hex away? If this happened in other people's games. Then my theory will be proved to be wrong.


quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

I am not making a claim. I am showing you the math. If you disagree with the math then show where the math is wrong.

You claimed at 8 hexes distance that 6 hex reaction is not enough. But 6 hex reaction makes 8 hexes become 2 hexes.

And now you claim that Allied carriers never react. I can not help you.




Hades, in my opinion, you did not make yourself clear in your initial posts. Don provided a very detailed description around how far a TF will react, and it seems to me from his post that the Reaction Range setting is just that, what distance the TF will react toward an enemy.

I do not believe that the TF Reaction Range setting determines the range that an enemy TF needs to be within before your TF will react. I do not have an example that I can provide as "proof." Maybe Don or MichaelM would be able to confirm this for you.

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(in reply to hades1001)
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RE: max reaction distance question - 1/28/2012 4:39:25 PM   
Sardaukar


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quote:

ORIGINAL: USS America


quote:

ORIGINAL: hades1001

I believe the 6 hex reaction distance means the carriers will react to any enemy carrier TF within 6 hex.
However, if the the enemy carrier is 8 hex away, it is out of the reaction range, so that my carriers won't react.
Did I make myself clear?

My question would be, has anyone seen carriers react to enemy that is more than 7/8 hex away? If this happened in other people's games. Then my theory will be proved to be wrong.


quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

I am not making a claim. I am showing you the math. If you disagree with the math then show where the math is wrong.

You claimed at 8 hexes distance that 6 hex reaction is not enough. But 6 hex reaction makes 8 hexes become 2 hexes.

And now you claim that Allied carriers never react. I can not help you.




Hades, in my opinion, you did not make yourself clear in your initial posts. Don provided a very detailed description around how far a TF will react, and it seems to me from his post that the Reaction Range setting is just that, what distance the TF will react toward an enemy.

I do not believe that the TF Reaction Range setting determines the range that an enemy TF needs to be within before your TF will react. I do not have an example that I can provide as "proof." Maybe Don or MichaelM would be able to confirm this for you.


This is my understanding too. CV TF with reaction range of 6 will react max. 6 hexes towards enemy CV TF. It is max. range it'll close, ebemy can be further, but CV TF will close only 6 hexes. For example, enemy TF is 8 hexes away and detected, so reacting TF can close in 6 hexed max, to bring range to 2.

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RE: max reaction distance question - 1/28/2012 10:18:27 PM   
pompack


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hades1001

I believe the 6 hex reaction distance means the carriers will react to any enemy carrier TF within 6 hex.
However, if the the enemy carrier is 8 hex away, it is out of the reaction range, so that my carriers won't react.
Did I make myself clear?

My question would be, has anyone seen carriers react to enemy that is more than 7/8 hex away? If this happened in other people's games. Then my theory will be proved to be wrong.




Yes, unfortunately I have seen this happen more than I like. Most recently (about three weeks ago) four CV TFs in a hex (with react set to zero). Combat result: two carriers sunk because two TFs reacted to four hexes from Japaanese force while two TFs remained nine hexes away adjacent to an island AF with 70 fighters.

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RE: max reaction distance question - 1/29/2012 2:56:28 AM   
hades1001

 

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OK so it will react, that answer my confusion.

Thanks guys.

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RE: max reaction distance question - 1/29/2012 9:54:13 AM   
Sardaukar


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One reason I sometimes won't use Halsey as CV TF leader is that High Aggressiveness TF commander often overrides reaction set = 0. I prefer guys with lower aggressiveness but good air skill because of that.

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RE: max reaction distance question - 1/29/2012 2:54:26 PM   
pompack


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hades1001

OK so it will react, that answer my confusion.

Thanks guys.



One factor that may be significant is "remaining movement points". In my example (which remains fixed in my mind for some reason ), none of the four carrier TFs had been ordered to move so they had used no movement points. The intent was to hold position and use the island and its CAP for a shield. I have never been able to determine if remaining movement points makes a difference in react, but I suspect that it does

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RE: max reaction distance question - 1/29/2012 10:08:34 PM   
msieving1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: USS America

I do not believe that the TF Reaction Range setting determines the range that an enemy TF needs to be within before your TF will react. I do not have an example that I can provide as "proof." Maybe Don or MichaelM would be able to confirm this for you.


Granted, the manual is not always correct, but it supports Hades's view. Section 6.2.5 says: "TFs set to “React”, combined with enemy TFs within reaction range may react, depending on the composition and status of the various TFs and the quality of the Task Force Commander." This implies that TFs will only react to enemy TFs "within reaction range".

Now, it may be that the "reaction range" referred to in the manual is not the "MaxReact" set on the TF screen, and that "MaxReact" is just the distance the TF will travel in reacting. In that case, my question would be, what is the "reaction range"? Is there a possibility that a TF with "MaxReact" set to 6 will move 6 hexes towards an enemy TF that's 10 hexes away, or 20 hexes away? How close does an enemy TF have to be before there is a possibility that my TF will react?

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RE: max reaction distance question - 1/29/2012 10:17:10 PM   
pompack


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Well, for what it's worth, in my example the carriers reacted from nine hexes away to four hexes away which happens to be the normal range for a TBD which was my torpedo bomber at the time.

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RE: max reaction distance question - 1/29/2012 11:01:18 PM   
hades1001

 

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So when you are covering your beach head, and Jap carriers may try to attack from 8-10 hex away. What is the best tactic to preserve your carriers while cover your amphibious fleets?

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RE: max reaction distance question - 1/30/2012 2:20:52 AM   
pompack


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hades1001

So when you are covering your beach head, and Jap carriers may try to attack from 8-10 hex away. What is the best tactic to preserve your carriers while cover your amphibious fleets?


Stay one hex from the target beach, on the side away from the threat. And really, really hope you don't react. Your objective is to protect the beachhead; Spraunce was right. JMHO.

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