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Japanese Plane Production Advice Please

 
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Japanese Plane Production Advice Please - 1/24/2012 10:59:52 PM   
Icedawg


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From: Upstate New York
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I'm just getting ready to start a new game and was considering juggling my aircraft production around a bit to the scheme listed below. Does anyone see any bonehead choices?

IJA F
Ki-83
Ki-44 Tojo (all)
Ki-43 Oscar (all)
Ki-84 Frank (all)

IJN F
A6M Zero (all)
A7M Sam (both)
N1K George (all)
J2M Jack (all)

IJA FB
Ki-45 KAIa Nick (not b and c - stats indicate poorer than a)
Ki-102b Randy

IJN FB
A6M2 Sen Baku

IJA NF
Ki-45 KAId Nick
Ki-46 III KAI Dinah
Ki-102c Randy

IJN NF
A6M5d-S Zero
P1Y2-S Frances
C6N1-S Myrt

IJA DB
None

IJN DB
D3A1 Val (not D3A2)
D4Y Judy (all)
B7A2 Grace
E16A1 Paul

IJA LB
Ki-21-IIa Sally
Ki-49 Helen (all)
Ki-32 Mary (just to use up engines available in pool at start)
Ki-51 Sonia (both)
Ki-115 Tsurugi (both)

IJN LB
G4M1
G3M3
P1Y (all)

IJA Recon
Ki-15-II Babs (use this rather than Dinah I & II due to the fact that it only requires the production of a single engine)
Ki-46-III Dinah
Ki-95

IJN Rec
C5M2 Babs
D4Y Judy (both)
C6N Myrt (both)

IJA TR
Ki-56 Thalia

IJN TR
L3Y2 Tina
L2D2 Tabby
G4M1-L Betty
H6K2-L Mavis
H6K4-L Mavis
H8K2-L Emily

Patrol
H6K4 Mavis
H6K5 Mavis
H8K2 Emily

FPE13A1 Jake
E13A1b Jake
E14Y1 Glen

FF
A6M2-N Rufe
N1K1 Rex

TB
B5N Kate (both - produce B5N1 just to use up engines available in pool at start)
B6N Jill (all)
M6A1 Sieran



Post #: 1
RE: Japanese Plane Production Advice Please - 1/24/2012 11:52:28 PM   
rader


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Icedawg

I'm just getting ready to start a new game and was considering juggling my aircraft production around a bit to the scheme listed below. Does anyone see any bonehead choices?

*=I would't bother

IJA F
Ki-83
Ki-44 Tojo (all)
Ki-43 Oscar (all)
Ki-84 Frank (all)
Ki-201?

IJN F
A6M Zero (all)
A7M Sam (both)
N1K George (all)
J2M Jack (all)
J7W!!!

IJA FB
Ki-45 KAIa Nick (not b and c - stats indicate poorer than a)
Ki-102b Randy

IJN FB
A6M2 Sen Baku*

IJA NF
Ki-45 KAId Nick*
Ki-46 III KAI Dinah*
Ki-102c Randy

IJN NF
A6M5d-S Zero*
P1Y2-S Frances*
C6N1-S Myrt*
Irving S & S-a
Denko

IJA DB
None

IJN DB
D3A1 Val (not D3A2)
D4Y Judy (all)
B7A2 Grace
E16A1 Paul*

IJA LB
Ki-21-IIa Sally
Ki-49 Helen (all)
Ki-32 Mary (just to use up engines available in pool at start)
Ki-51 Sonia (both)*
Ki-115 Tsurugi (both)

IJN LB
G4M1
G3M3
P1Y (all)

IJA Recon
Ki-15-II Babs (use this rather than Dinah I & II due to the fact that it only requires the production of a single engine)
Ki-46-III Dinah
Ki-95*

IJN Rec
C5M2 Babs
D4Y Judy (both)
C6N Myrt (both)

IJA TR
Ki-56 Thalia

IJN TR
L3Y2 Tina*
L2D2 Tabby
G4M1-L Betty*
H6K2-L Mavis
H6K4-L Mavis
H8K2-L Emily

Patrol
H6K4 Mavis
H6K5 Mavis
H8K2 Emily

FPE13A1 Jake
E13A1b Jake
E14Y1 Glen

FF
A6M2-N Rufe
N1K1 Rex

TB
B5N Kate (both - produce B5N1 just to use up engines available in pool at start)
B6N Jill (all)
M6A1 Sieran*







< Message edited by rader -- 1/24/2012 11:55:54 PM >

(in reply to Icedawg)
Post #: 2
RE: Japanese Plane Production Advice Please - 1/25/2012 12:08:08 AM   
Nemo121


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E16 and E15 are useful late-war as kamikazes in isolated bases as being floatplanes means they still fly whether or not the airfield is closed.

Essentially they give you the ability to fly kamikaze missions even if the Allies are bombing the airfield to keep it closed. Overall though you are probably better just overbuilding the E13 series throughout the war as the 250 Kg bomb combined with 100 foot approach altitude gives them an ability to hit poorly escorted convoys and divert CVEs into convoy protection duties in 1944/45 (which helps you ).


I think, overall, you are running a risk of producing too much of various airframes without concentrating on one. Once the N1K comes along for the IJNAF there's no point producing anything else except Zeroes for CVs and the J7W when that comes along. I've found the N1K to be more than a match for Allied fighters throughout its various iterations. Same goes for the Ki-84. Really there's no point producing any Ki-61 variant once the Ki-84 comes along. Ki-100 is kinda sucky but the low service ceiling makes it useful in the front lines. I'd also question the point of the J2M series but some of that depends on whether or not you are confident you can keep the Allies out of range while waiting for the N1K series.


_____________________________

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Well, that's that settled then.

(in reply to rader)
Post #: 3
RE: Japanese Plane Production Advice Please - 1/25/2012 2:50:32 AM   
PaxMondo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nemo121
I think, overall, you are running a risk of producing too much of various airframes without concentrating ...


Definitely agree. You need to focus; there are trade-offs in the specs, but quantity has a quality of its own.


_____________________________

Pax

(in reply to Nemo121)
Post #: 4
RE: Japanese Plane Production Advice Please - 1/26/2012 3:04:43 PM   
Shark7


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From: The Big Nowhere
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Even with the 2 engine thing, I'd keep the early Dinah as well. It is just an all around more capable aircraft for recon.

On the transports, I usually consolidate down to 2 types, 1 for army and 1 for navy.

And you want the B7A 'Ryusei' (Grace). It is the best of the Japanese torpedo bombers. It was a Torpedo-Dive bomber, meant to take the place of both the D4Y and B6N.

_____________________________

Distant Worlds Fan

'When in doubt...attack!'

(in reply to PaxMondo)
Post #: 5
RE: Japanese Plane Production Advice Please - 1/26/2012 9:22:37 PM   
Captain Cruft


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Even with PDU on you may need to produce some Nick C variant and Lily C variant just to upgrade and/or combine some airgroups.

FWIW I don't produce any 2E IJA bombers that I don't have to. Two Oscar II/III/IVs in the FB role are a much better bet IMO for the same HI cost.

< Message edited by Captain Cruft -- 1/26/2012 9:23:05 PM >

(in reply to Shark7)
Post #: 6
RE: Japanese Plane Production Advice Please - 1/27/2012 1:25:37 AM   
Icedawg


Posts: 1582
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From: Upstate New York
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

E16 and E15 are useful late-war as kamikazes in isolated bases as being floatplanes means they still fly whether or not the airfield is closed.

Essentially they give you the ability to fly kamikaze missions even if the Allies are bombing the airfield to keep it closed. Overall though you are probably better just overbuilding the E13 series throughout the war as the 250 Kg bomb combined with 100 foot approach altitude gives them an ability to hit poorly escorted convoys and divert CVEs into convoy protection duties in 1944/45 (which helps you ).


I think, overall, you are running a risk of producing too much of various airframes without concentrating on one. Once the N1K comes along for the IJNAF there's no point producing anything else except Zeroes for CVs and the J7W when that comes along. I've found the N1K to be more than a match for Allied fighters throughout its various iterations. Same goes for the Ki-84. Really there's no point producing any Ki-61 variant once the Ki-84 comes along. Ki-100 is kinda sucky but the low service ceiling makes it useful in the front lines. I'd also question the point of the J2M series but some of that depends on whether or not you are confident you can keep the Allies out of range while waiting for the N1K series.



Thanks for the input. It was very helpful and has prompted me to make some changes in my approach here. I especially like your suggestion for the Norms and Pauls. I never considered the significance of float planes being able to operate even when the airfield has been shut down - very useful idea here.

For the IJN I'm thinking of Zeroes until the N1K1-J and J2M2 come along. I like the idea of producing both of these as they are pretty much identical in stats with one important difference - the George is better at high altitudes and the Jack is better at lower altitudes. By using these in combination for sweeps and CAP, I hope they can mutually support each other and kick some butt. The second generation Jack is better than both of them, so when it comes along, I'll switch to over to it. Then when the second and third generation Georges come along, I will stick with them pretty much until the end of the war and will no longer bother with the J2M5. I'm pretty hesitant to produce the J7W. Even though it has some very impressive stats, it doesn't arrive until the war is nearly over and I don't like the idea of using the industry centers to produce something that's only going to be around when it's "curtains time" for Japan.

For the IJA I'm thinking exclusively of Oscars and Tojos early on - no Tonys. I'll stick with them unitl the Frank comes along. After that, I'll go primarily with the Tojo and the Frank (with a few Oscars kept going just for their range). As far as late war models are concerned, I'm leaning only toward the Ki-83. If the Karyu arrived a bit earlier and had a lower service rating I might be inclined to produce some of them. But I just can't justify factory space on something that's only going to be around for the last couple of weeks of the war and will only be able to fly once or twice per week. As for the Ki-100s, I just don't see the appeal in this aircraft. It's no better than the Ki-44-IIc and shows up a full year after. So, what's the point in producing it?

(in reply to Nemo121)
Post #: 7
RE: Japanese Plane Production Advice Please - 1/27/2012 1:51:26 AM   
Icedawg


Posts: 1582
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: Upstate New York
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shark7

Even with the 2 engine thing, I'd keep the early Dinah as well. It is just an all around more capable aircraft for recon.

On the transports, I usually consolidate down to 2 types, 1 for army and 1 for navy.

And you want the B7A 'Ryusei' (Grace). It is the best of the Japanese torpedo bombers. It was a Torpedo-Dive bomber, meant to take the place of both the D4Y and B6N.


The Dinah II is a bit faster than the Babs, but that's about it's only advantage. And does speed really matter that much for recon aircraft? I guess it may help reduce losses to CAP by a little bit, but do these reduced losses justify the extra HI devoted to its extra engine?


I also like the idea of one transport for the IJA, but only because the Thalia is clearly better than all of the other choices.


For the IJN, each transport has its own advantage. The Tina is the only one you have early in the war and it has an incredible range. If you want to do anything significant with your paratroopers early on, it seems as though the Tina is absolutely required.

The Tabby has a heck of a load capacity (so you can actually transport a decent amount of supply if needed).

The Betty can replace the Tina later on.

The float feature of the two Mavis variants and the Emily allow them to operate out of size 0 bases. I will only be producing one of these at any one time. As a new model appears, I will shift over in this order - H6K2-L then H6K4-L then H8K2-L.

So in actuality, I'm only going to be producing one member from each of three "groups" of these IJN transports at any time - one from the Tina/Betty pair; the Tabby and one from the Mavis/Emily group.

As for the Grace, I am definitely going to produce it. I just listed it with the DBs. The game considers it a DB, so that's where I put it in my original list.

(in reply to Shark7)
Post #: 8
RE: Japanese Plane Production Advice Please - 1/27/2012 4:06:59 AM   
Shark7


Posts: 7184
Joined: 7/24/2007
From: The Big Nowhere
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Icedawg

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shark7

Even with the 2 engine thing, I'd keep the early Dinah as well. It is just an all around more capable aircraft for recon.

On the transports, I usually consolidate down to 2 types, 1 for army and 1 for navy.

And you want the B7A 'Ryusei' (Grace). It is the best of the Japanese torpedo bombers. It was a Torpedo-Dive bomber, meant to take the place of both the D4Y and B6N.


The Dinah II is a bit faster than the Babs, but that's about it's only advantage. And does speed really matter that much for recon aircraft? I guess it may help reduce losses to CAP by a little bit, but do these reduced losses justify the extra HI devoted to its extra engine?


I also like the idea of one transport for the IJA, but only because the Thalia is clearly better than all of the other choices.


For the IJN, each transport has its own advantage. The Tina is the only one you have early in the war and it has an incredible range. If you want to do anything significant with your paratroopers early on, it seems as though the Tina is absolutely required.

The Tabby has a heck of a load capacity (so you can actually transport a decent amount of supply if needed).

The Betty can replace the Tina later on.

The float feature of the two Mavis variants and the Emily allow them to operate out of size 0 bases. I will only be producing one of these at any one time. As a new model appears, I will shift over in this order - H6K2-L then H6K4-L then H8K2-L.

So in actuality, I'm only going to be producing one member from each of three "groups" of these IJN transports at any time - one from the Tina/Betty pair; the Tabby and one from the Mavis/Emily group.

As for the Grace, I am definitely going to produce it. I just listed it with the DBs. The game considers it a DB, so that's where I put it in my original list.


Hmm, I guess I think more end game. 2Es make better kamikazes, because 2E aircraft are just more survivable.

And it has been a while since I played with the Grace, forgot that only 1 type is given, other than both mission types.

_____________________________

Distant Worlds Fan

'When in doubt...attack!'

(in reply to Icedawg)
Post #: 9
RE: Japanese Plane Production Advice Please - 1/27/2012 8:05:23 PM   
Captain Cruft


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From: England
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If you can accelerate the Shinden, Ki-201 and Ki-83, and given the game can go well into 1946 then you may have use of these planes for well over a year. They are well worth it IMO.

(in reply to Shark7)
Post #: 10
RE: Japanese Plane Production Advice Please - 1/28/2012 4:17:03 PM   
Icedawg


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From: Upstate New York
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Captain Cruft

If you can accelerate the Shinden, Ki-201 and Ki-83, and given the game can go well into 1946 then you may have use of these planes for well over a year. They are well worth it IMO.


You must seriously accelerate them to get them for over a year. The Karyu is scheduled for March 46. To get use of this aircraft for over a year, you'd need to accelerate it by eleven months. That's some serious investment in R&D,

(in reply to Captain Cruft)
Post #: 11
RE: Japanese Plane Production Advice Please - 1/28/2012 4:53:14 PM   
PaxMondo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Captain Cruft

FWIW I don't produce any 2E IJA bombers that I don't have to. Two Oscar II/III/IVs in the FB role are a much better bet IMO for the same HI cost.

Interesting concept and I see where you are going. How are you able to field enough fighter groups? Unfortunately you can't convert bomber groups to Oscars ... I would be short of air groups if I tried this ...

_____________________________

Pax

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Post #: 12
RE: Japanese Plane Production Advice Please - 1/28/2012 7:15:52 PM   
Icedawg


Posts: 1582
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From: Upstate New York
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quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo


quote:

ORIGINAL: Captain Cruft

FWIW I don't produce any 2E IJA bombers that I don't have to. Two Oscar II/III/IVs in the FB role are a much better bet IMO for the same HI cost.

Interesting concept and I see where you are going. How are you able to field enough fighter groups? Unfortunately you can't convert bomber groups to Oscars ... I would be short of air groups if I tried this ...


I was puzzled by this post from the captain. Is he implying that a couple of oscars will do more bombing damage than a Helen? At first I just thought he was being sarcastic about the low effectiveness of the 2E IJA bombers.

Are you guys getting results this poor from Helens, Sallys etc? When I use fighters to attack airfields, the CRs generally show very little damage. With 2E bombers I seem to get rather better results.

(in reply to PaxMondo)
Post #: 13
RE: Japanese Plane Production Advice Please - 1/28/2012 7:22:01 PM   
Icedawg


Posts: 1582
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From: Upstate New York
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shark7

Even with the 2 engine thing, I'd keep the early Dinah as well. It is just an all around more capable aircraft for recon.

On the transports, I usually consolidate down to 2 types, 1 for army and 1 for navy.

And you want the B7A 'Ryusei' (Grace). It is the best of the Japanese torpedo bombers. It was a Torpedo-Dive bomber, meant to take the place of both the D4Y and B6N.


Just trying to steer the discussion back toward the Babs/Dinah comparison. Does the Dinah's speed advantage (of about 60mph) have much of an effect on its chance of surviving CAP? If it does, I'll produce the Dinah II. If not, I'll go with the Babs since it is otherwise identical in stats (and has a lower service rating and only uses one engine).

(in reply to Shark7)
Post #: 14
RE: Japanese Plane Production Advice Please - 1/28/2012 7:23:44 PM   
Captain Cruft


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Pax,

I think you need a quietish game to try this, which I am fortunate enough to have in my sole Scen 2 PBEM.

Most of the IJA bomber groups are dedicated to training in LowG. Then I have 3 perma-restricted IJA fighter groups in the HI where I move the LowG pilots for Air training. When they reach 70 Air & 70 LowG off they go to fly an Oscar II.

So far I have only tested the actual operational units in China. It seems to work quite well though. 200 Oscar IIs bombing and strafing at 100ft will seriously disrupt a large stack of Chinese grunts even in good terrain. Losses to flak are minimal.

I need to test it out on airfield attack too, and against stronger LCUs, but the game hasn't really provided an opportunity yet.

Icedawg,

Yes I am serious. The Oscar II, III & IV all carry 2 x 250kg bombs, which is half what a 2E bomber carries, but with a much higher chance of delivery against a strong CAP. Also consider the service rating of 1 and the requirement of a mere level 2 airfield to fly off.

< Message edited by Captain Cruft -- 1/28/2012 7:39:01 PM >

(in reply to PaxMondo)
Post #: 15
RE: Japanese Plane Production Advice Please - 1/28/2012 7:43:50 PM   
Captain Cruft


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Another thought ...

The H8K2 Emily is a strategic weapon IMO. Don't ever use them for naval search, they are meant to deliver torpedos, probably at night.



(in reply to Captain Cruft)
Post #: 16
RE: Japanese Plane Production Advice Please - 1/28/2012 7:45:44 PM   
Gräfin Zeppelin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Captain Cruft

Another thought ...

The H8K2 Emily is a strategic weapon IMO. Don't ever use them for naval search, they are meant to deliver torpedos, probably at night.




Thats hardly strategic. Also Japan is realy short on flyboat groups so who will do all the long range search ?

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Post #: 17
RE: Japanese Plane Production Advice Please - 1/28/2012 7:53:23 PM   
Puhis

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Icedawg

Just trying to steer the discussion back toward the Babs/Dinah comparison. Does the Dinah's speed advantage (of about 60mph) have much of an effect on its chance of surviving CAP? If it does, I'll produce the Dinah II. If not, I'll go with the Babs since it is otherwise identical in stats (and has a lower service rating and only uses one engine).


I think CAP never shot down planes flying recon missions. Flak can kill them, but not CAP. At least I've never seen that.

If you use recon planes as naval search, speed does help them to avoid CAP. Also, I think Dinah suffer less flak losses than Babs, but I really don't have any data to proof that.

(in reply to Icedawg)
Post #: 18
RE: Japanese Plane Production Advice Please - 1/28/2012 7:54:12 PM   
Alfred

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Icedawg


Just trying to steer the discussion back toward the Babs/Dinah comparison. Does the Dinah's speed advantage (of about 60mph) have much of an effect on its chance of surviving CAP? If it does, I'll produce the Dinah II. If not, I'll go with the Babs since it is otherwise identical in stats (and has a lower service rating and only uses one engine).


A recon bird flying at 20k or more has a very low loss rate, whether from flak or enemy fighters. But even at that height it can still be intercepted by enemy fighters, so yes more speed makes it harder for enemy fighters to intercept the recon bird.

Alfred

(in reply to Icedawg)
Post #: 19
RE: Japanese Plane Production Advice Please - 1/28/2012 7:57:24 PM   
Captain Cruft


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gräfin Zeppelin


quote:

ORIGINAL: Captain Cruft

Another thought ...

The H8K2 Emily is a strategic weapon IMO. Don't ever use them for naval search, they are meant to deliver torpedos, probably at night.




Thats hardly strategic. Also Japan is realy short on flyboat groups so who will do all the long range search ?


I stick to what I said Not tested it yet of course though ...

Nells are for searching. There's no area of the map which doesn't have a size 1 airfield.

(in reply to Gräfin Zeppelin)
Post #: 20
RE: Japanese Plane Production Advice Please - 1/28/2012 8:01:27 PM   
Alfred

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Puhis


I think CAP never shot down planes flying recon missions. Flak can kill them, but not CAP. At least I've never seen that.

If you use recon planes as naval search, speed does help them to avoid CAP. Also, I think Dinah suffer less flak losses than Babs, but I really don't have any data to proof that.



Puhis,

FYI, I have seen CAP shoot down recon planes on recon missions. Rare but it can occur. More likely to occur if you are flying CAP at least at the same altitude as the recon plane.

Altitude height and maneouvre rating of plane are key factors in whether flak will bring down a recon plane.

Operational losses do however tend to be the single largest cause of destroyed recon planes.

Alfred

(in reply to Puhis)
Post #: 21
RE: Japanese Plane Production Advice Please - 1/28/2012 8:42:59 PM   
Puhis

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred


quote:

ORIGINAL: Puhis


I think CAP never shot down planes flying recon missions. Flak can kill them, but not CAP. At least I've never seen that.

If you use recon planes as naval search, speed does help them to avoid CAP. Also, I think Dinah suffer less flak losses than Babs, but I really don't have any data to proof that.



Puhis,

FYI, I have seen CAP shoot down recon planes on recon missions. Rare but it can occur.

Alfred


Like I said, I've never seen that. It must be really rare occasion, because I'm constantly reconing enemy bases with heavy CAP.

I can't give definitive answer to Icedawg's question, but I can give some statistics from my PBEM game. It's late November 1942, and I've lost total 90 Dinahs and 93 Babs (both navy and army). Flak have shot down 19 Dinahs (21 %) and 44 Babs (47 %), operational losses are 61 Dinahs (67 %) and 43 Babs (46 %). A2A losses are just 4 Dinahs and 2 Babs, but I'm pretty sure all these have been planes flying naval search, not recon.

So it seems that Dinah is much less vulnerable to flak than Babs. I'd build Babs only for imperial navy, which doesn't have better recon plane before early 1943.

(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 22
RE: Japanese Plane Production Advice Please - 1/28/2012 8:55:30 PM   
Captain Cruft


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I have just started getting the D4YC-1 Judy recon plane in Oct 42. It's arrival was not advanced by R&D. Carrier capable too ...

(in reply to Puhis)
Post #: 23
RE: Japanese Plane Production Advice Please - 1/28/2012 9:02:11 PM   
Puhis

 

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Yes, I forgot about Recon Judy. I'm playing DPU off, so there's not many groups that can use Judy.

But still, Babs is going to be only navy recon plane for 11 months.

(in reply to Captain Cruft)
Post #: 24
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