3R-Axis - Avalon Hill 'Third Reich' for TOAW - by sPzAbt653

Norm Koger's The Operational Art of War III is the next game in the award-winning Operational Art of War game series. TOAW3 is updated and enhanced version of the TOAW: Century of Warfare game series. TOAW3 is a turn based game covering operational warfare from 1850-2015. Game scale is from 2.5km to 50km and half day to full week turns. TOAW3 scenarios have been designed by over 70 designers and included over 130 scenarios. TOAW3 comes complete with a full game editor.

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Crossroads
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3R-Axis - Avalon Hill 'Third Reich' for TOAW - by sPzAbt653

Post by Crossroads »

EDIT: 15 DEC 2014

3R - Axis: A scenario inspired by Avalon Hill boargame "Rise and Decline of the Third Reich"

A Game of World War II Grand Strategy, says the original cover art in the box. And right it is. You gotta love this scenario by sPzAbt653.

GET THE DOWNLOAD FROM HERE:
ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

Place the '3R - Axis.sce' file in the Scenario Folder of your choice.

Go to 'The Operational Art of War III' directory and open the 'Graphics' folder. Create a new folder called '3R - Axis'. Place the remaining files (not the .sce file) into the folder you just created.

http://www.dizium.net/TOAW


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Original opening post:

I have been looking for a conversion of Avalon Hill's classic Rise and Decline of Third Reich boardgame into a popular game engine.

Image

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I knew there was a one, but as it turned out, it was for SC2 engine.

http://www.wargamer.com/article/2526/st ... hird-reich

http://www.wargamer.com/article/2527/st ... hird-reich

Bummer.

Anyway, while searching the net, I found this amazing scenario. Work in progress, it seems, but really looks like the real thing already.

http://www.wargamecollege.net/2011/07/hello-world/
http://www.wargamecollege.net/2012/01/r ... sion-beta/
http://www.wargamecollege.net/2011/09/t ... 45-manual/

Have any of you guys tried it out?

I don't own TOAW yet, but am looking for a good excuse to buy it. If this isn't it I don't know what is, but would really appreciate your views on this!
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RE: 'Third Reich 1942-1945' - Your thoughts?

Post by Grimnirsson »

Well, I'm a grog and so having this classic as a playable version on TOAW3 sounds great, but actually I fail to see how this can be done. A conversion of the 3rd R rules won't be possible I suppose because TOAW3 - although allowing all kinds of scenarios - will still use it's own rules and we would just get a TOAW3 game with 3rd R counters and the 3rd R map. But I'm new to TOAW3 so that's just guessing [:)]
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RE: 'Third Reich 1942-1945' - Your thoughts?

Post by Crossroads »

Cheers

"a TOAW3 game with 3rd R counters and the 3rd R map"

I would settle for this right now :)

EDIT: To be clear, I would and will settle for a TOAW scenario that is reminiscent to "feel" of the Third Reich board game. A grand strategic view of the WW II over Europe.

So again, if any of you guys familiar with TOAW would give your thoughts on the scenario that would be great!
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RE: 'Third Reich 1942-1945' - Your thoughts?

Post by sPzAbt653 »

Those linked articles aren't dated or signed, but it may be the same scenario that is being worked on here :

tm.asp?m=2829991

It's not 3R counters and map, and I haven't seen one that is, but there are quite a few 'WWII' and ETO scenarios floating around.
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RE: 'Third Reich 1942-1945' - Your thoughts?

Post by PeteG662 »

Here is an original attempt from Avalon Hill.
&nbsp;
http://www.oldgames.nu/PC/Third_Reich/3503/
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RE: 'Third Reich 1942-1945' - Your thoughts?

Post by Crossroads »

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

Those linked articles aren't dated or signed, but it may be the same scenario that is being worked on here :

tm.asp?m=2829991

It's not 3R counters and map, and I haven't seen one that is, but there are quite a few 'WWII' and ETO scenarios floating around.

That's the scenario, thanks. The last post of the thread confirms that.

Quite a monster... The number of unit counters is just huge...

What I do like about the scenario in question is indeed how they have taken care to script in the decline of German industrial capabilities etc...

But... Are there "similar" (ie. scenarios that try to model the economic side of warfare) WW II / ETO scenarios that use higher level units, ie. less units (as in the picture of Third Reich I posted in the OP)?

I imagine one turn with that monster would take a long time to play for me, and hours of calculation for computer?


Thanks! :)
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RE: 'Third Reich 1942-1945' - Your thoughts?

Post by governato »

East & West Fronts 42-45 is indeed pretty good and Mark (the designer) has done an outstanding job at using the TOAW 3.4 features. It's clearly a step up compared to many older big scenarios for the attention to realism and giving the players lots of interesting strategic choices. I played the first turns and it is pretty fun. Of course it's a monster so it takes a long time to play and (true for every long scenario) it is hard to predict how balanced it will be once say 100 Turns into it. Mark is doing a lot of playtesting at the moment!
If you are interested in a recent, large scale scenario for TOAW 3.4, but with less units I will toot my own horn and suggest you take a look at'Eastern Front 41-45' You can grab it from the scenario design page. Mark and I are testing/AARing (yeah new verb!) the current version and we got to Spring 42, having a lot of fun so far.

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RE: 'Third Reich 1942-1945' - Your thoughts?

Post by Crossroads »

Third Reich 1942-1945 sure looks like an incredible piece of wargaming art. Kudos for Mark & his team for his achievements.

Unfortunately its sheer size is too much for me, personally. I just checked the Avalon Hill box for Third Reich, it lists a total of 560 unit counters for all the countries represented in the game, consisting of land, sea and air units.

I actually forgot to check, but I recall one hex = 100 kms, I do not know does TOAW support this or is it one hex = 50 km max?

I have decided to purchase TOAW and will for sure check your scenario as well as it looks very interesting to say the least.

Meanwhile, if anyone can assist me in my search for a scenario covering a similar scope and unit density I would sure appreciate it!
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RE: 'Third Reich 1942-1945' - Your thoughts?

Post by Curtis Lemay »

ORIGINAL: Crossroads

I actually forgot to check, but I recall one hex = 100 kms, I do not know does TOAW support this or is it one hex = 50 km max?

Looking at my version of TR, I can't find anywhere where it says what the hex scale was, but it looks bigger than 100km/hex - maybe 100 miles/hex. And the time scale is three-months/turn.

TOAW offically supports 50km/hex max and full-week/turn max. There are designer tools available to allow one to fudge the map scale somewhat. One could maybe make a 100km/hex scenario - movement allowances and costs, density penalties, etc. could all be revised sufficiently. You would have to edit the air equipment to halve their ranges, though. You would run into difficulties trying to model certain coastlines, though. For example, the English Channel is only about 30km across. TR could just expect players to consider that to be a sea barrier by the way it was drawn. In TOAW, there's no facility to allow adjacent hexes to be separated by deep water. A bigger problem would be the turn interval. There's really no good way to fudge that yet - some designers have tried, though.
Meanwhile, if anyone can assist me in my search for a scenario covering a similar scope and unit density I would sure appreciate it!

I don't think anyone has made a scenario at that large a scale so far. I've made a couple of 50km/hex scenarios covering Barbarossa (Soviet Union 1941) and the final year (Germany 1945).
My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site
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RE: 'Third Reich 1942-1945' - Your thoughts?

Post by Crossroads »

Cheers,

You're propably right about the scale. I don't have my TR set with me but looking at the map again it seems one hex indeed is roughly 100 miles. Less than 200 klicks, but more than 100, that makes sense.

I found this: http://www.the-strategist.net/RD/scenar ... ld-War-Two

Still a wee bit more units than what I would like to see, but again, it comprises of a huge map. Does a scenario that old play out in the latest reincarnation of the game?

Thanks again!


EDIT: Found the box, the scale seems to be an arbitrary choice of printing the hex grid over the map. Distance between Rome and Paris is roughly 1100 kms, or roughly 700 miles. In the game it is exactly 10 hexes. T
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RE: 'Third Reich 1942-1945' - Your thoughts?

Post by demyansk »

I have played that mod with strategic command global conflict and it the best mod for that game.&nbsp; If you get TOAW3 you will find enough eastern front scenarios to keep you occupied for 5 years.
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RE: 'Third Reich 1942-1945' - Your thoughts?

Post by sPzAbt653 »

In TOAW, there's no facility to allow adjacent hexes to be separated by deep water.

Well, as you say, there would be a lot of fudging in trying to represent Third Reich. Maybe Major Escarpments could be used, since there are no Mountain units in the scenario.

No Hex Side Rivers in TOAW, and the grids are laid out differently, too. I don't know why someone wouldn't just play Third Reich if they wanted the experience, rather than attempting to translate it to TOAW. Sounds like fun to try, though.

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RE: 'Third Reich 1942-1945' - Your thoughts?

Post by Crossroads »

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

I don't know why someone wouldn't just play Third Reich if they wanted the experience, rather than attempting to translate it to TOAW. Sounds like fun to try, though.

Because it is a board game from 1970s - 1980s? [:D]

I am aware that I am asking for a game of grand strategy being converted to game engine designed for operational level, but already there seems to be lots of scnearios out there who are attempting to break into next leve.

I know the platoon size Campaign Series has lots of Corps level scenarios [8D] Lots of love and labour in those scenarios! A bit like the TR 1942-45 scenario I originally asked about.

Then again, as Campaign Series has its foundations on Avalon Hill's Panzerblitz and Panzer Leader board games, and actually represents the exact same scale as well, all original Avalon Hill situations as they were called are transferred into Campaign Series scenarios.

Again, if any of you knows of interesting strategy level scenarios with lower unit density I am definitively interested. The map you provided looks interesting, while it does not of course resemble a complete copy of original TR boards.

Here's hoping!
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RE: 'Third Reich 1942-1945' - Your thoughts?

Post by sPzAbt653 »

Because it is a board game from 1970s - 1980s?

Also a computer game from the 1990's. I've got it fired up on my W98 machine [:D]
The map you provided looks interesting, while it does not of course resemble a complete copy of original TR boards.


Agreed. I think one of the graphics modders made some tiles that were similar. Maybe if they come across this thread they can send me what they have and we can see how it looks. Of course, the mechanics are very different between 3R and TOAW, but I think we are talking about the possibility of a similar scale and unit count, followed by whatever else we can make similar, and end up with a non-monster that is Risk-like. BRP's and Exploitation seem unatainable, as well as Naval aspects.
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RE: 'Third Reich 1942-1945' - Your thoughts?

Post by Crossroads »

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653
Also a computer game from the 1990's. I've got it fired up on my W98 machine [:D]



Lucky you! I've heard it indeed requires a W98 setup and will not run on XP or newer. Is it so?

I recall playing "Nato Commander" over Commodore 64.

Image

Maybe I should check whether is is still available for my CBM64 emulator for PC [:)].
ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653
Agreed. I think one of the graphics modders made some tiles that were similar. Maybe if they come across this thread they can send me what they have and we can see how it looks. Of course, the mechanics are very different between 3R and TOAW, but I think we are talking about the possibility of a similar scale and unit count, followed by whatever else we can make similar, and end up with a non-monster that is Risk-like. BRP's and Exploitation seem unatainable, as well as Naval aspects.

I agree if it is a RISK we end up with it is not worth the effort.

Then again, BRP's have to do with reinforcements (if looked simply at), that can be somehow controlled, based on certain events? Mike's 1942-1945 mentions the effect of bombing for an example? Exploitation I could replace with the TOAW game mechanics. Naval aspects have to do again with being able to supply remote areas as the African Theatre of War, also whether one feels if it is possible to risk invasion to England. Some rules / events could perhaps be used here as well.

And, while the map you pictured has the exact same scale as TR, it could easily be e.g. three times bigger and still be not a particularly large. Then, a total of some 600 units made available to players, and perhaps we would be ending up with somthing that is more TR and less RISK.
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RE: 'Third Reich 1942-1945' - Your thoughts?

Post by sPzAbt653 »

I've heard it indeed requires a W98 setup and will not run on XP or newer. Is it so?

Because I have the original, I never looked into the situation so I have no idea. I do know that I have the original V4V series and could not get them running on any computer, but found the 'DFend Reloaded' thingy and that works great. Maybe there is something similar for Third Reich. You might be able to check in the General Discussion area.
... Commodore 64.

I didn't have Nato Commander but had several others. Loved the Kampfgruppe and Battlegroup ones. Also loved Arnhem (if you hadn't seen it, a TOAW version can be had at Rugged Defense).
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RE: 'Third Reich 1942-1945' - Your thoughts?

Post by sPzAbt653 »

I agree if it is a RISK we end up with it is not worth the effort.

And several good ideas you have after that comment. I also have some ideas and am putting it together far enough to play the Polish Campaign. If that works well enough I will move on to the French Campaign. If that works I may well continue with it to see how it ends up.
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RE: 'Third Reich 1942-1945' - Your thoughts?

Post by sPzAbt653 »

Not bad. I managed to take Warsaw after 4 combat rounds.

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RE: 'Third Reich 1942-1945' - Your thoughts?

Post by sPzAbt653 »

Initial issues that stand out:

Readiness Values - One round of combat can put a unit down to 33% Readiness, but recovery only happens at a rate of around 10-per turn. So a unit would take at least 7 turns to get from 33% back to 100%. That 7 turns equals 21 months in this scenario. [:@]

Unit Displays - Third Reich had, for example, Infantry units that displayed 3(attack factor) and 3(movement factor). The Defense Value in Third Reich was equal to 2x the attack factor. In these TOAW units I don't think I can get the Movement Factor to display as the second value, instead it displays the Defense Factor (which isn't all bad). But the Pz Units only have a Defense Factor of 1, which looks silly. I tinkered in the BioEd to try and raise it, but no luck.

Rebuilding your Destroyed Units at the end of your turn - No way to do this at all, as TOAW 'bookkeeping' occurs at the beginning of the turn.
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RE: 'Third Reich 1942-1945' - Your thoughts?

Post by Crossroads »

Shees, the picture you posted already brings some memories back!

The map and scope of units looks really nice. I skimmed through the TR manual, and seemed to not find a clear definition of what sizes the TR counters e.g. infantry and tanks are supposed to be. Something between Corps and Divisions I guegss.

Building new units seems to be something that could be worked around, if I understood correctly there could be a limited stack of 'empty shells' for them?&nbsp; Readiness Values however seem to be a real show stopper? [:(]

Did you create the map for this purpose? It looks rather nice. In the TR boards they've taken some freedom to separate UK with a clear sea bed, perhaps you could consider that as well.

Damn, I can't wait for that TOAW box to arrive to these parts of world!



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