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Transfering Avalon Hill's 'Third Reich' for TOAW - Your thoughts?

 
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Transfering Avalon Hill's 'Third Reich' for TOAW - Your... - 1/24/2012 12:20:33 PM   
Crossroads


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EDIT: Changed the name of the thread to describe it better

I have been looking for a conversion of Avalon Hill's classic Rise and Decline of Third Reich boardgame into a popular game engine.





I knew there was a one, but as it turned out, it was for SC2 engine.

http://www.wargamer.com/article/2526/strategy-and-tactics-article-artificial-intelligence-part-i-using-strategic-command-2-ai-to-play-advanced-third-reich

http://www.wargamer.com/article/2527/strategy-and-tactics-article-artificial-intelligence-part-ii-an-ai-versus-ai-after-action-review-for-advanced-third-reich

Bummer.

Anyway, while searching the net, I found this amazing scenario. Work in progress, it seems, but really looks like the real thing already.

http://www.wargamecollege.net/2011/07/hello-world/
http://www.wargamecollege.net/2012/01/reich-1942-1945-po-version-beta/
http://www.wargamecollege.net/2011/09/third-reich-1942-1945-manual/

Have any of you guys tried it out?

I don't own TOAW yet, but am looking for a good excuse to buy it. If this isn't it I don't know what is, but would really appreciate your views on this!


< Message edited by Crossroads -- 1/30/2012 6:05:02 PM >


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RE: 'Third Reich 1942-1945' - Your thoughts? - 1/24/2012 12:37:04 PM   
Grimnirsson


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Well, I'm a grog and so having this classic as a playable version on TOAW3 sounds great, but actually I fail to see how this can be done. A conversion of the 3rd R rules won't be possible I suppose because TOAW3 - although allowing all kinds of scenarios - will still use it's own rules and we would just get a TOAW3 game with 3rd R counters and the 3rd R map. But I'm new to TOAW3 so that's just guessing

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RE: 'Third Reich 1942-1945' - Your thoughts? - 1/24/2012 12:42:43 PM   
Crossroads


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Cheers

"a TOAW3 game with 3rd R counters and the 3rd R map"

I would settle for this right now :)

EDIT: To be clear, I would and will settle for a TOAW scenario that is reminiscent to "feel" of the Third Reich board game. A grand strategic view of the WW II over Europe.

So again, if any of you guys familiar with TOAW would give your thoughts on the scenario that would be great!


< Message edited by Crossroads -- 1/24/2012 12:46:59 PM >


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RE: 'Third Reich 1942-1945' - Your thoughts? - 1/24/2012 2:00:17 PM   
sPzAbt653


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Those linked articles aren't dated or signed, but it may be the same scenario that is being worked on here :

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2829991

It's not 3R counters and map, and I haven't seen one that is, but there are quite a few 'WWII' and ETO scenarios floating around.

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RE: 'Third Reich 1942-1945' - Your thoughts? - 1/24/2012 2:14:31 PM   
Tallyman662


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Here is an original attempt from Avalon Hill.

http://www.oldgames.nu/PC/Third_Reich/3503/

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RE: 'Third Reich 1942-1945' - Your thoughts? - 1/24/2012 2:25:55 PM   
Crossroads


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

Those linked articles aren't dated or signed, but it may be the same scenario that is being worked on here :

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2829991

It's not 3R counters and map, and I haven't seen one that is, but there are quite a few 'WWII' and ETO scenarios floating around.


That's the scenario, thanks. The last post of the thread confirms that.

Quite a monster... The number of unit counters is just huge...

What I do like about the scenario in question is indeed how they have taken care to script in the decline of German industrial capabilities etc...

But... Are there "similar" (ie. scenarios that try to model the economic side of warfare) WW II / ETO scenarios that use higher level units, ie. less units (as in the picture of Third Reich I posted in the OP)?

I imagine one turn with that monster would take a long time to play for me, and hours of calculation for computer?


Thanks! :)

< Message edited by Crossroads -- 1/24/2012 3:23:33 PM >


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RE: 'Third Reich 1942-1945' - Your thoughts? - 1/24/2012 8:49:41 PM   
governato

 

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East & West Fronts 42-45 is indeed pretty good and Mark (the designer) has done an outstanding job at using the TOAW 3.4 features. It's clearly a step up compared to many older big scenarios for the attention to realism and giving the players lots of interesting strategic choices. I played the first turns and it is pretty fun. Of course it's a monster so it takes a long time to play and (true for every long scenario) it is hard to predict how balanced it will be once say 100 Turns into it. Mark is doing a lot of playtesting at the moment!
If you are interested in a recent, large scale scenario for TOAW 3.4, but with less units I will toot my own horn and suggest you take a look at'Eastern Front 41-45' You can grab it from the scenario design page. Mark and I are testing/AARing (yeah new verb!) the current version and we got to Spring 42, having a lot of fun so far.



< Message edited by governato -- 1/24/2012 8:50:00 PM >

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RE: 'Third Reich 1942-1945' - Your thoughts? - 1/25/2012 8:57:58 AM   
Crossroads


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Third Reich 1942-1945 sure looks like an incredible piece of wargaming art. Kudos for Mark & his team for his achievements.

Unfortunately its sheer size is too much for me, personally. I just checked the Avalon Hill box for Third Reich, it lists a total of 560 unit counters for all the countries represented in the game, consisting of land, sea and air units.

I actually forgot to check, but I recall one hex = 100 kms, I do not know does TOAW support this or is it one hex = 50 km max?

I have decided to purchase TOAW and will for sure check your scenario as well as it looks very interesting to say the least.

Meanwhile, if anyone can assist me in my search for a scenario covering a similar scope and unit density I would sure appreciate it!

< Message edited by Crossroads -- 1/25/2012 8:58:14 AM >


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RE: 'Third Reich 1942-1945' - Your thoughts? - 1/25/2012 3:04:28 PM   
Curtis Lemay


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Crossroads

I actually forgot to check, but I recall one hex = 100 kms, I do not know does TOAW support this or is it one hex = 50 km max?


Looking at my version of TR, I can't find anywhere where it says what the hex scale was, but it looks bigger than 100km/hex - maybe 100 miles/hex. And the time scale is three-months/turn.

TOAW offically supports 50km/hex max and full-week/turn max. There are designer tools available to allow one to fudge the map scale somewhat. One could maybe make a 100km/hex scenario - movement allowances and costs, density penalties, etc. could all be revised sufficiently. You would have to edit the air equipment to halve their ranges, though. You would run into difficulties trying to model certain coastlines, though. For example, the English Channel is only about 30km across. TR could just expect players to consider that to be a sea barrier by the way it was drawn. In TOAW, there's no facility to allow adjacent hexes to be separated by deep water. A bigger problem would be the turn interval. There's really no good way to fudge that yet - some designers have tried, though.

quote:

Meanwhile, if anyone can assist me in my search for a scenario covering a similar scope and unit density I would sure appreciate it!


I don't think anyone has made a scenario at that large a scale so far. I've made a couple of 50km/hex scenarios covering Barbarossa (Soviet Union 1941) and the final year (Germany 1945).

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RE: 'Third Reich 1942-1945' - Your thoughts? - 1/25/2012 3:15:25 PM   
Crossroads


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Cheers,

You're propably right about the scale. I don't have my TR set with me but looking at the map again it seems one hex indeed is roughly 100 miles. Less than 200 klicks, but more than 100, that makes sense.

I found this: http://www.the-strategist.net/RD/scenarii/the-operational-art-of-war-scenario-30-World-War-Two

Still a wee bit more units than what I would like to see, but again, it comprises of a huge map. Does a scenario that old play out in the latest reincarnation of the game?

Thanks again!


EDIT: Found the box, the scale seems to be an arbitrary choice of printing the hex grid over the map. Distance between Rome and Paris is roughly 1100 kms, or roughly 700 miles. In the game it is exactly 10 hexes. T

< Message edited by Crossroads -- 1/25/2012 5:19:43 PM >


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RE: 'Third Reich 1942-1945' - Your thoughts? - 1/25/2012 11:14:17 PM   
demjansk

 

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I have played that mod with strategic command global conflict and it the best mod for that game.  If you get TOAW3 you will find enough eastern front scenarios to keep you occupied for 5 years.

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RE: 'Third Reich 1942-1945' - Your thoughts? - 1/27/2012 2:40:45 AM   
sPzAbt653


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In TOAW, there's no facility to allow adjacent hexes to be separated by deep water.

Well, as you say, there would be a lot of fudging in trying to represent Third Reich. Maybe Major Escarpments could be used, since there are no Mountain units in the scenario.

No Hex Side Rivers in TOAW, and the grids are laid out differently, too. I don't know why someone wouldn't just play Third Reich if they wanted the experience, rather than attempting to translate it to TOAW. Sounds like fun to try, though.




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RE: 'Third Reich 1942-1945' - Your thoughts? - 1/27/2012 11:58:45 AM   
Crossroads


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

I don't know why someone wouldn't just play Third Reich if they wanted the experience, rather than attempting to translate it to TOAW. Sounds like fun to try, though.



Because it is a board game from 1970s - 1980s?

I am aware that I am asking for a game of grand strategy being converted to game engine designed for operational level, but already there seems to be lots of scnearios out there who are attempting to break into next leve.

I know the platoon size Campaign Series has lots of Corps level scenarios Lots of love and labour in those scenarios! A bit like the TR 1942-45 scenario I originally asked about.

Then again, as Campaign Series has its foundations on Avalon Hill's Panzerblitz and Panzer Leader board games, and actually represents the exact same scale as well, all original Avalon Hill situations as they were called are transferred into Campaign Series scenarios.

Again, if any of you knows of interesting strategy level scenarios with lower unit density I am definitively interested. The map you provided looks interesting, while it does not of course resemble a complete copy of original TR boards.

Here's hoping!

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RE: 'Third Reich 1942-1945' - Your thoughts? - 1/27/2012 11:40:12 PM   
sPzAbt653


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quote:

Because it is a board game from 1970s - 1980s?


Also a computer game from the 1990's. I've got it fired up on my W98 machine

quote:

The map you provided looks interesting, while it does not of course resemble a complete copy of original TR boards.


Agreed. I think one of the graphics modders made some tiles that were similar. Maybe if they come across this thread they can send me what they have and we can see how it looks. Of course, the mechanics are very different between 3R and TOAW, but I think we are talking about the possibility of a similar scale and unit count, followed by whatever else we can make similar, and end up with a non-monster that is Risk-like. BRP's and Exploitation seem unatainable, as well as Naval aspects.

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RE: 'Third Reich 1942-1945' - Your thoughts? - 1/28/2012 11:56:11 AM   
Crossroads


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653
Also a computer game from the 1990's. I've got it fired up on my W98 machine



Lucky you! I've heard it indeed requires a W98 setup and will not run on XP or newer. Is it so?

I recall playing "Nato Commander" over Commodore 64.



Maybe I should check whether is is still available for my CBM64 emulator for PC .

quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653
Agreed. I think one of the graphics modders made some tiles that were similar. Maybe if they come across this thread they can send me what they have and we can see how it looks. Of course, the mechanics are very different between 3R and TOAW, but I think we are talking about the possibility of a similar scale and unit count, followed by whatever else we can make similar, and end up with a non-monster that is Risk-like. BRP's and Exploitation seem unatainable, as well as Naval aspects.


I agree if it is a RISK we end up with it is not worth the effort.

Then again, BRP's have to do with reinforcements (if looked simply at), that can be somehow controlled, based on certain events? Mike's 1942-1945 mentions the effect of bombing for an example? Exploitation I could replace with the TOAW game mechanics. Naval aspects have to do again with being able to supply remote areas as the African Theatre of War, also whether one feels if it is possible to risk invasion to England. Some rules / events could perhaps be used here as well.

And, while the map you pictured has the exact same scale as TR, it could easily be e.g. three times bigger and still be not a particularly large. Then, a total of some 600 units made available to players, and perhaps we would be ending up with somthing that is more TR and less RISK.

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RE: 'Third Reich 1942-1945' - Your thoughts? - 1/28/2012 6:01:01 PM   
sPzAbt653


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quote:

I've heard it indeed requires a W98 setup and will not run on XP or newer. Is it so?


Because I have the original, I never looked into the situation so I have no idea. I do know that I have the original V4V series and could not get them running on any computer, but found the 'DFend Reloaded' thingy and that works great. Maybe there is something similar for Third Reich. You might be able to check in the General Discussion area.

quote:

... Commodore 64.


I didn't have Nato Commander but had several others. Loved the Kampfgruppe and Battlegroup ones. Also loved Arnhem (if you hadn't seen it, a TOAW version can be had at Rugged Defense).

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RE: 'Third Reich 1942-1945' - Your thoughts? - 1/28/2012 6:05:22 PM   
sPzAbt653


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quote:

I agree if it is a RISK we end up with it is not worth the effort.


And several good ideas you have after that comment. I also have some ideas and am putting it together far enough to play the Polish Campaign. If that works well enough I will move on to the French Campaign. If that works I may well continue with it to see how it ends up.

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RE: 'Third Reich 1942-1945' - Your thoughts? - 1/28/2012 8:23:50 PM   
sPzAbt653


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Not bad. I managed to take Warsaw after 4 combat rounds.




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RE: 'Third Reich 1942-1945' - Your thoughts? - 1/28/2012 8:35:09 PM   
sPzAbt653


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Initial issues that stand out:

Readiness Values - One round of combat can put a unit down to 33% Readiness, but recovery only happens at a rate of around 10-per turn. So a unit would take at least 7 turns to get from 33% back to 100%. That 7 turns equals 21 months in this scenario.

Unit Displays - Third Reich had, for example, Infantry units that displayed 3(attack factor) and 3(movement factor). The Defense Value in Third Reich was equal to 2x the attack factor. In these TOAW units I don't think I can get the Movement Factor to display as the second value, instead it displays the Defense Factor (which isn't all bad). But the Pz Units only have a Defense Factor of 1, which looks silly. I tinkered in the BioEd to try and raise it, but no luck.

Rebuilding your Destroyed Units at the end of your turn - No way to do this at all, as TOAW 'bookkeeping' occurs at the beginning of the turn.

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RE: 'Third Reich 1942-1945' - Your thoughts? - 1/29/2012 9:51:14 AM   
Crossroads


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Shees, the picture you posted already brings some memories back!

The map and scope of units looks really nice. I skimmed through the TR manual, and seemed to not find a clear definition of what sizes the TR counters e.g. infantry and tanks are supposed to be. Something between Corps and Divisions I guegss.

Building new units seems to be something that could be worked around, if I understood correctly there could be a limited stack of 'empty shells' for them?  Readiness Values however seem to be a real show stopper?

Did you create the map for this purpose? It looks rather nice. In the TR boards they've taken some freedom to separate UK with a clear sea bed, perhaps you could consider that as well.

Damn, I can't wait for that TOAW box to arrive to these parts of world!





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RE: 'Third Reich 1942-1945' - Your thoughts? - 1/29/2012 9:55:01 AM   
Crossroads


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I guess TR had a good reason to call the counters "units". Afterall, 'Army Corps' meant different things to different countries, and even among a single country the strength varied during the war. 

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RE: 'Third Reich 1942-1945' - Your thoughts? - 1/29/2012 8:29:33 PM   
USXpat

 

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Thank you all for the comments - still a work in progress.  The Third Reich 1942-1945 PO averages about 30 min per turn during the first 30-odd turns.  It's a full time job just to play it!    

Avalon Hill's "Rise and Decline of the Third Reich" was my first real wargame.  Hard to represent the BRP's and ability to buy your units in TOAW - consumes too many events. 

Governato's rework East Front 1941 - 1945 - mostly at the Corps/Army level is a good fast play scenario.  Europe Aflame on the same scale is Corps level, too - and borders upon being a monster.  It is a monster - but it starts out "fast/small" and gets bigger. 

Another game that comes pretty close to approximating AH's 3rd Reich is Time of Fury - Division/Corps level - but provides the strategic component of planning unit purchases (infantry/motor/armor/airborne/fighters/tac bombers/stratbombers/ships/subs).  Strategic Command was Korps/Army level, allowed purchases/tech - and used what looked like the Panzer General interface.

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RE: 'Third Reich 1942-1945' - Your thoughts? - 1/29/2012 8:45:54 PM   
sPzAbt653


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quote:

Did you create the map for this purpose?


Yes.

quote:

... separate UK with a clear sea bed ...


I'm not sure how to do that, but I have been considering moving all of Great Britain one hex to the northwest, which would then allow for a 'normal' TOAW English Channel. I don't think this fix would have any negative effect at all.

quote:

... Building new units seems to be something that could be worked around ...


So far I've got a system where if a unit is destroyed, a Theater Option pops up to rebuild it. It doesn't cost BRP's, but there are a limited number of replacements, so rebuilding and building units does cost something. And instead of gaining BRP's by capturing countries, the player gets disband units that add to the replacements. (So I'm thinking that Replacements will take the place of BRP's).

quote:

Readiness Values however seem to be a real show stopper?


Definately. I'm hoping that someone can provide a fix, or maybe it can be addressed in a future patch, otherwise it kind of ruins the scenario.

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RE: 'Third Reich 1942-1945' - Your thoughts? - 1/29/2012 8:51:40 PM   
sPzAbt653


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quote:

I skimmed through the TR manual, and seemed to not find a clear definition of what sizes the TR counters ...


Thus far I've been designing the units as Corp size. And so far it seems that I need to have a few more than were supplied in Third Reich due to the replacement issue (in Third Reich you can replace units at the end of your turn, but with this TOAW model replacement takes two turns).

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RE: 'Third Reich 1942-1945' - Your thoughts? - 1/29/2012 9:01:34 PM   
sPzAbt653


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Strategic Warfare - Axis Subs and Allied Bombers.

I don't intend to put any effort into modeling this aspect of Third Reich. But if anyone can put forth a workable idea, I will entertain it.

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RE: 'Third Reich 1942-1945' - Your thoughts? - 1/29/2012 9:03:26 PM   
sPzAbt653


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quote:

Hard to represent the BRP's and ability to buy your units in TOAW - consumes too many events.


Yes, but I hear that we might soon have 10,000 events to work with, so it may be possible.

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RE: 'Third Reich 1942-1945' - Your thoughts? - 1/30/2012 10:08:51 AM   
Crossroads


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@USXpat

Keep up the good work! It seems you are really testing the limits of the engine... This can only be good as I am sure it provides food for thought for those working with the future TOAW upgrades?

@sPzAbt653

Good stuff, I hope something tangible comes out of this  

Yes, moving UK 'a bit north' was what I meant whit my clumsy English. I am sure no-one minds, and that's what the TR map looks like as well.

I sincerely hope good people better skilled than myself would jump to assist you in creating this scenario. Getting the basics first, adding details later sounds like the way to go.

I hope somehas an idea to "fix" the Readiness Values for this particular need, so I am bumping the issue up again


< Message edited by Crossroads -- 1/30/2012 10:51:35 AM >


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RE: 'Third Reich 1942-1945' - Your thoughts? - 1/30/2012 12:55:11 PM   
pzgndr

 

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quote:

I would and will settle for a TOAW scenario that is reminiscent to "feel" of the Third Reich board game. A grand strategic view of the WW II over Europe.


My Advanced Third Reich mod conversion for the latest Strategic Command Global Conflict GOLD edition is nearing completion. Yes, the game still uses the PG interface with no unit stacking and tiles instead of hexes, and I've implemented monthly turns instead of seasonal turns, but overall the game plays out as well as can be expected for an adaptation of the boardgame.

My motivation for all this madness over the past several years is simple. I enjoyed the original boardgame and wanted a decent computer game version. I've looked around but IMHO the Strategic Command series offers the best option for making this happen. Despite the no stacking, tiles and such, what else offers WWII ETO grand strategy, diplomacy, production, AND challenging AI for both sides? My A3R mod does.

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RE: 'Third Reich 1942-1945' - Your thoughts? - 1/30/2012 6:09:39 PM   
Crossroads


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I finally got my TOAW - woo hoo! I believe should Matrix have a finder's fee system in place all you fine gentlemen who chipped in here should ask for your well deserved commissions

Pzgndr, a PM is heading your way shortly if you don't mind...


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RE: 'Third Reich 1942-1945' - Your thoughts? - 1/30/2012 10:17:42 PM   
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quote:

I've heard it indeed requires a W98 setup and will not run on XP or newer.


I once had the game installed on a XP computer but it was a downloaded version and although it run...it run quite fast...too fast actually to follow what was going on

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