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RE: Rout....again....

 
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RE: Rout....again.... - 2/3/2012 12:27:44 AM   
wodin


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Yet loss of cohesion and moral seems to have a massive effect in the game, I came across something to do with why most attacks broke down after a few days during WW2 and it was due to loss of cohesion. I do find though that moral seems to drop very very quickly.

Major we sort of worked that out thats why some stats for certain unit where going to be upped in the scenarios last patch. When it comes to elan as with the SS units training and experience have far less effect. Due to them being fanatical. Hnece the massive casualties SS untis took even the youngsters of the 12SS stuck to it to the end.

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RE: Rout....again.... - 2/3/2012 5:24:12 AM   
Arjuna


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From my readings the SS units were more likely to press home an attack but they were routed off on many occassions and not just on Elsenborn ridge but right throughout the Ardennes. This is where I think many earlier wargames have created a mistaken view of the SS. Sure they had some seasoned tough nutters but by this time of the war their ranks were largely populated through conscripts not fanatical volunteers. So the level of fanaticism just wasn't what it used to be compared with the early East front campaigns. nor compared with Normandy in the West. You have to remember that the SS lost heavily in Normandy. Most of its divisions were rebuilt just prior to the Ardenne battles. In many cases the SS did not perfom as well as standard Whermacht formations.

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RE: Rout....again.... - 2/3/2012 8:33:29 AM   
wodin


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Right, I thought I'd read that the kids in the 12ss were more fanatical than most due to growing up under the Facist state...not very good soldiers though but willing to die for Mr Hitler.

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RE: Rout....again.... - 2/4/2012 1:30:17 AM   
Jim D Burns


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Crew experience is a huge factor when it comes to how they’ll react to hostile fire or combat stress. I recently watched a documentary where a US veteran recounted a tale of how his 57mm AT gun was sitting exposed in the middle of the street and they were unable to move it quickly due to the fact all the recent firing had dug the two arms of the gun carriage deep into the mud. They heard a tank coming but were stuck in place and couldn’t move to cover.

Suddenly a Tiger II came rumbling into view from the left side of the T junction in the street they were facing down. The Tiger started to turn right onto their street, but when it apparently saw the AT gun, the tank quickly reversed making no attempt to engage the AT gun and backed into a building that collapsed onto the tank knocking it out. If the crew had been experienced, they wouldn’t have panicked and lost the tank, but obviously the green crew was scared to death of the AT gun even though it had no chance to take on a Tiger II frontally.

Jim


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RE: Rout....again.... - 2/4/2012 1:32:04 AM   
Jim D Burns


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quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

Right, I thought I'd read that the kids in the 12ss were more fanatical than most due to growing up under the Facist state...not very good soldiers though but willing to die for Mr Hitler.



There were barely 1,000 of them left after the Normandy campaign. I think they started with about 14,000 on June 6, so it's safe to assume most of the division is raw recruits by the time the Bulge rolled around.

Jim


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RE: Rout....again.... - 2/4/2012 3:26:11 AM   
wodin


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Jim, whoops, I'm not on the ball sometimes and was way off there, getting confused for a minute and thought the game covered Normandy for some odd reason.

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RE: Rout....again.... - 2/4/2012 1:06:15 PM   
RockinHarry


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arjuna

From my readings the SS units were more likely to press home an attack but they were routed off on many occassions and not just on Elsenborn ridge but right throughout the Ardennes. This is where I think many earlier wargames have created a mistaken view of the SS. Sure they had some seasoned tough nutters but by this time of the war their ranks were largely populated through conscripts not fanatical volunteers. So the level of fanaticism just wasn't what it used to be compared with the early East front campaigns. nor compared with Normandy in the West. You have to remember that the SS lost heavily in Normandy. Most of its divisions were rebuilt just prior to the Ardenne battles. In many cases the SS did not perfom as well as standard Whermacht formations.


Same with many german paratrooper units (with exception of the ones in italy maybe) serving the last half year of the war. These are oftenly considered "elite" infantry, but generally lack most of everything. German high command rated these at "IV" combat value, which means "limited capabilty for defensive actions". Like with their SS comrades, there was an above average focus on indoctrination and morale boosting measures, which made them perform more aggressive and tenacious, despite lack of proper training, combat experience and weapon/ammo supplies.

I´ve yet to find a good balance for my paratroopers in OP Veritable (2nd, 6th, 7th, 8th division and various corps/army para units). Training and experience will stay rather low, while aggression, determination and morale, as well as unit leader stats obviously would be the deciding factors.

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