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Group reserve - does anyone actually use this?

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Group reserve - does anyone actually use this? - 1/21/2012 4:51:10 PM

rader

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I'm curious if anyone actually ever uses the "group reserve" feature? And if you do, what do you use it for?

It seems way too micromanagy to me to go through your air groups and purposely stand down pilots, etc. And they seem to activate spontaneously anyway, so I'm not sure there would be any point..?

It seems to me to be just an extra unecessary pool for pilots. Wouldn't it be easier if pilots were just either in a group (possibly with delay, that seems to work ok), or not in a group? Why do they need to ever be deactivate/activated? I ask because I spend an average of a couple of minutes each turn activating pilots in various group reserves when after almost 2 full games of WITP:AE, I have never once felt the urge to deactivate them or put them into group reserve. I'm curious if there are different opinions on this, and if not, what is the feature for?

Post #: 1

RE: Group reserve - does anyone actually use this? - 1/21/2012 5:12:26 PM

castor troy

Posts: 11995
Joined: 8/23/2004
From: Austria
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: rader

I'm curious if anyone actually ever uses the "group reserve" feature? And if you do, what do you use it for?

It seems way too micromanagy to me to go through your air groups and purposely stand down pilots, etc. And they seem to activate spontaneously anyway, so I'm not sure there would be any point..?

It seems to me to be just an extra unecessary pool for pilots. Wouldn't it be easier if pilots were just either in a group (possibly with delay, that seems to work ok), or not in a group? Why do they need to ever be deactivate/activated? I ask because I spend an average of a couple of minutes each turn activating pilots in various group reserves when after almost 2 full games of WITP:AE, I have never once felt the urge to deactivate them or put them into group reserve. I'm curious if there are different opinions on this, and if not, what is the feature for?

never used it. It actually annoys me because I have to manually get probably tens of thousands of pilots out of the group reserve in a PBEM that goes over the years.

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Post #: 2

RE: Group reserve - does anyone actually use this? - 1/21/2012 6:02:37 PM

Chickenboy

Posts: 14829
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: Twin Cities, MN
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: rader

I'm curious if anyone actually ever uses the "group reserve" feature?

Nope. Not intentionally. Like Castor Troy: their either in the unit, general reserve, TRACOM or a replacement / teaching pool.

Do you ever intentionally rotate fliers home for 180 days? Another waste 'feature', IMO.

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Post #: 3

RE: Group reserve - does anyone actually use this? - 1/21/2012 6:06:12 PM

Dan Nichols

Posts: 863
Joined: 8/30/2011
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You mean this one?

104.Removed ability to send pilot 'home for 180 days' as not desired or useful.

(in reply to Chickenboy)

Post #: 4

RE: Group reserve - does anyone actually use this? - 1/21/2012 6:10:37 PM

witpqs

Posts: 12398
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline

Group reserve is not a problem as I see it. The fliers with 1 day delay are automatically activated by the game, so you don't have to select them and activate them. If you put some extra pilots in a squadron that is in heavy combat, pilots with too much fatigue are automatically put on 1 day delay until they recover. Works fine.

The issue is with the scenario files. They have named pilots arriving directly to their groups. That was fine before pilot training in the various skills. Now it's a problem because the scenario files do not have skills in them, only experience (in other words whatever was in the pilot files before the skills were added to the game). When a named pilot shows up he is given randomly assigned skills (I guess) based on his experience and maybe the squadrons type (another guess). That's what takes all the clicking - finding them as they arrive and sending them to the reserve so you can pick them up later in a training squadron.

I wrote a Python program to take a pilot file and modify it so any pilots arriving after their units will instead be sent directly to the reserve. Treespider and I used it for our game (but we only got to summer '42 before real life knocked him out of the game).

(in reply to Chickenboy)

Post #: 5

RE: Group reserve - does anyone actually use this? - 1/21/2012 6:12:52 PM

Chickenboy

Posts: 14829
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From: Twin Cities, MN
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dan Nichols

You mean this one?

104.Removed ability to send pilot 'home for 180 days' as not desired or useful.

I assume that this was a beta patch change? I don't play with the betas, as there are any number of 'undocumented' changes that have been cited as interfering with gameplay. Glad to see that this click-a-fest has been removed for those that choose to use the betas.

< Message edited by Chickenboy -- 1/21/2012 6:14:08 PM >

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Post #: 6

RE: Group reserve - does anyone actually use this? - 1/21/2012 6:17:46 PM

GreyJoy

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never used it. Useless. I want all my pilots to be eligible for flying duties cause it helps to keep the avg fatigue levels low...

Have you ever noticed that very experienced pilots are really less prone to get fatigued?

My ELITE squadron (12 pilots in a 7 planes group) has an avg exp of 94 and even at 100%LRCAP (3 hexes) only accumulates 10 fatigue points every 2 days!

...while a squadron with an avg exp of 50 for the same distance of LRCAP accumulates more than 40 fatigue points every 2 days

(in reply to Chickenboy)

Post #: 7

RE: Group reserve - does anyone actually use this? - 1/21/2012 9:06:24 PM

crsutton

Posts: 6195
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dan Nichols

You mean this one?

104.Removed ability to send pilot 'home for 180 days' as not desired or useful.

I assume that this was a beta patch change? I don't play with the betas, as there are any number of 'undocumented' changes that have been cited as interfering with gameplay. Glad to see that this click-a-fest has been removed for those that choose to use the betas.

CB, noting really wrong with the betas at all. Any glitch and michaelm fixes it pronto. Once you see it you will not ever want to go back. Any glitches are far outweighed by the issues in the last patch that have been corrected.

_____________________________

"As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one." Godwin's Law

(in reply to Chickenboy)

Post #: 8

RE: Group reserve - does anyone actually use this? - 1/21/2012 9:48:10 PM

witpqs

Posts: 12398
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dan Nichols

You mean this one?

104.Removed ability to send pilot 'home for 180 days' as not desired or useful.

I assume that this was a beta patch change? I don't play with the betas, as there are any number of 'undocumented' changes that have been cited as interfering with gameplay. Glad to see that this click-a-fest has been removed for those that choose to use the betas.

CB, noting really wrong with the betas at all. Any glitch and michaelm fixes it pronto. Once you see it you will not ever want to go back. Any glitches are far outweighed by the issues in the last patch that have been corrected.

Concur. And all changes are documented (I'm not saying he didn't miss one but that's not the point). Whoever is telling you stories about "any number of 'undocumented' changes that have been cited as interfering with gameplay" is full of it IMO.

(in reply to crsutton)

Post #: 9

RE: Group reserve - does anyone actually use this? - 1/22/2012 1:15:12 AM

Knyvet

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even the public beta is broke (see public beta thread) - hopefully fixed soon

(in reply to witpqs)

Post #: 10

RE: Group reserve - does anyone actually use this? - 1/22/2012 1:32:41 AM

pompack

Posts: 2450
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From: University Park, Texas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Knyvet

even the public beta is broke (see public beta thread) - hopefully fixed soon

I checked the public beta thread and everything seems to be fine.

(in reply to Knyvet)

Post #: 11

RE: Group reserve - does anyone actually use this? - 1/22/2012 1:51:18 AM

rader

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Since no one seems to use it, maybe we should lobby Michael to try to get rid of it? Would make pilot management a bit easier.

< Message edited by rader -- 1/22/2012 1:52:18 AM >

(in reply to pompack)

Post #: 12

RE: Group reserve - does anyone actually use this? - 1/22/2012 2:01:27 AM

witpqs

Posts: 12398
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rader

Since no one seems to use it, maybe we should lobby Michael to try to get rid of it? Would make pilot management a bit easier.

I guess you didn't read all of the posts...

(in reply to rader)

Post #: 13

RE: Group reserve - does anyone actually use this? - 1/22/2012 2:16:33 AM

rader

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quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

quote:

ORIGINAL: rader

Since no one seems to use it, maybe we should lobby Michael to try to get rid of it? Would make pilot management a bit easier.

I guess you didn't read all of the posts...

Ah whoops, sorry, did miss yours.

So what is the advantage of it? I mean, it does prevent my pilots from training if they are in group reserve. If I want them to train at all, I have to go through and activate each one individually. Not a "problem" per se, but sort of annoying. And if it is just about fatigue management, isn't that already covered by just selecting the least fatigued active pilot to fly? I just don't see any up side, but I do see a down side.

EDIT: It is possible that training is the only place where this even comes up, because maybe they don't get much fatigue doing that and are thus never activated.

< Message edited by rader -- 1/22/2012 2:21:02 AM >

(in reply to witpqs)

Post #: 14

RE: Group reserve - does anyone actually use this? - 1/22/2012 2:26:23 AM

Dan Nichols

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It can be useful if you want to use it. If I want to transfer a bunch of pilots from a training unit to a front line unit I can put them in group reserve and then sort the vets by unit and find the ones I want very easy.

(in reply to rader)

Post #: 15

RE: Group reserve - does anyone actually use this? - 1/22/2012 2:50:47 AM

Chickenboy

Posts: 14829
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: Twin Cities, MN
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quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dan Nichols

You mean this one?

104.Removed ability to send pilot 'home for 180 days' as not desired or useful.

I assume that this was a beta patch change? I don't play with the betas, as there are any number of 'undocumented' changes that have been cited as interfering with gameplay. Glad to see that this click-a-fest has been removed for those that choose to use the betas.

CB, noting really wrong with the betas at all. Any glitch and michaelm fixes it pronto. Once you see it you will not ever want to go back. Any glitches are far outweighed by the issues in the last patch that have been corrected.

Thanks crsutton-I understand the support for the betas is solid. Good on ya, mate. I just bristle at thinking I know how an engine / the game works and having my understanding pulled out from beneath me. My resistance to 'nerfing' some platforms is similar. Examples include monkeying with CAP efficacy or leakers (or at least CAP the way I understand it's worked for the past year), range of some bombers (e.g. D4Y1) and other comparatively 'minor' issues. It's worth keeping the warts of the official patches so as to avoid surprises.

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Post #: 16

RE: Group reserve - does anyone actually use this? - 1/22/2012 2:52:54 AM

Chickenboy

Posts: 14829
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: Twin Cities, MN
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dan Nichols

You mean this one?

104.Removed ability to send pilot 'home for 180 days' as not desired or useful.

I assume that this was a beta patch change? I don't play with the betas, as there are any number of 'undocumented' changes that have been cited as interfering with gameplay. Glad to see that this click-a-fest has been removed for those that choose to use the betas.

CB, noting really wrong with the betas at all. Any glitch and michaelm fixes it pronto. Once you see it you will not ever want to go back. Any glitches are far outweighed by the issues in the last patch that have been corrected.

Concur. And all changes are documented (I'm not saying he didn't miss one but that's not the point). Whoever is telling you stories about "any number of 'undocumented' changes that have been cited as interfering with gameplay" is full of it IMO.

Ah, my Argletonian colleague-it wouldn't make me feel better if the patch 'documented' "CAP is now borked". I wouldn't embrace it more for documenting its gameplay changes. See a short list of questionable changes that I placed in crsutton's response. I appreciate the support the betas has amongst y'all, but I just can't do it. To each their own.

_____________________________

(in reply to witpqs)

Post #: 17

RE: Group reserve - does anyone actually use this? - 1/22/2012 3:11:03 AM

witpqs

Posts: 12398
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dan Nichols

It can be useful if you want to use it. If I want to transfer a bunch of pilots from a training unit to a front line unit I can put them in group reserve and then sort the vets by unit and find the ones I want very easy.

Ditto - this is a very useful technique. From a training squadron direct to a squadron that has just arrived and is preparing to deploy.

(in reply to Dan Nichols)

Post #: 18

RE: Group reserve - does anyone actually use this? - 1/22/2012 3:24:05 AM

witpqs

Posts: 12398
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dan Nichols

You mean this one?

104.Removed ability to send pilot 'home for 180 days' as not desired or useful.

I assume that this was a beta patch change? I don't play with the betas, as there are any number of 'undocumented' changes that have been cited as interfering with gameplay. Glad to see that this click-a-fest has been removed for those that choose to use the betas.

CB, noting really wrong with the betas at all. Any glitch and michaelm fixes it pronto. Once you see it you will not ever want to go back. Any glitches are far outweighed by the issues in the last patch that have been corrected.

Concur. And all changes are documented (I'm not saying he didn't miss one but that's not the point). Whoever is telling you stories about "any number of 'undocumented' changes that have been cited as interfering with gameplay" is full of it IMO.

Ah, my Argletonian colleague-it wouldn't make me feel better if the patch 'documented' "CAP is now borked". I wouldn't embrace it more for documenting its gameplay changes. See a short list of questionable changes that I placed in crsutton's response. I appreciate the support the betas has amongst y'all, but I just can't do it. To each their own.

You only mentioned one - the CAP issue. The D4YXYZ whatever issue is OOB, not touched in the Betas at all. Wasn't that one done in either the original AE or one of the official patches long ago?

Anywho as far as the CAP issue goes, check out the threads for yourself and you will see that change is not in the Betas. It is in special Betas running in parallel that only a few people are using. I do not happen to be one of them, although I am looking with interest at the reports of those who are. BTW the reports are encouraging vis-a-vis increased realism.

You mention other minor issues, but not what they are so I can't speak to them.

Now, here is another perspective. You have (I presume?) been watching the Beta thread and the various ones surrounding it. You don't have to go right with the latest Beta. You can choose one that you feel has 'aged' appropriately!

If you haven't been downloading them all along, just say which one you want and I or someone else is all but certain to have it for you. That way you see:

- What is in the patch notes up to that patch.
- What is in later patch notes that indicate later fixes possibly relevant to that patch.
- The posts of people who loaded that patch with whatever info they have to offer.

The best part is, you become an honorary Argletonian!!! Your off-line friends will be jealous! Your relatives will be proud! Your wife will dope-slap you, but you'll get over that.

(in reply to Chickenboy)

Post #: 19

RE: Group reserve - does anyone actually use this? - 1/22/2012 3:56:05 AM

PaxMondo

Posts: 4427
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quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dan Nichols

It can be useful if you want to use it. If I want to transfer a bunch of pilots from a training unit to a front line unit I can put them in group reserve and then sort the vets by unit and find the ones I want very easy.

Ditto - this is a very useful technique. From a training squadron direct to a squadron that has just arrived and is preparing to deploy.

Yep, SOP for me. Use it all the time. Also, I use it to park high fatigue pilots to ensure they don't fly a few days and then bring them back when they are rested.

Would NOT support any notion to remove it.

_____________________________

Pax

(in reply to witpqs)

Post #: 20

RE: Group reserve - does anyone actually use this? - 1/22/2012 4:57:19 AM

Knyvet

Posts: 121
Joined: 10/10/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: pompack

quote:

ORIGINAL: Knyvet

even the public beta is broke (see public beta thread) - hopefully fixed soon

I checked the public beta thread and everything seems to be fine.

Michael posted the following a couple of weeks back in the official beta thread:

"There is a beta installer (r6?) in the Tech forum that addresses some bugs since the official Beta was posted.
I will be passing these on so that a new official can be built but not until Matrix returns (about second week Jan)"

If Michael indicates that the bugs are serious enough that he is asking Matrix to post a new public beta build, I'm waiting for the new official build to be posted. It is also a good illustration the process working well - i.e., why it not a final patch yet.

< Message edited by Knyvet -- 1/22/2012 5:03:46 AM >

(in reply to pompack)

Post #: 21

RE: Group reserve - does anyone actually use this? - 1/22/2012 9:24:09 AM

witpqs

Posts: 12398
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Knyvet

quote:

ORIGINAL: pompack

quote:

ORIGINAL: Knyvet

even the public beta is broke (see public beta thread) - hopefully fixed soon

I checked the public beta thread and everything seems to be fine.

Michael posted the following a couple of weeks back in the official beta thread:

"There is a beta installer (r6?) in the Tech forum that addresses some bugs since the official Beta was posted.
I will be passing these on so that a new official can be built but not until Matrix returns (about second week Jan)"

If Michael indicates that the bugs are serious enough that he is asking Matrix to post a new public beta build, I'm waiting for the new official build to be posted. It is also a good illustration the process working well - i.e., why it not a final patch yet.

The Beta has been going on a long time. The Betas posted in the Tech Support section are called "informal". They decided to post an "official" public Beta in time for the holidays. Since that posting, the Beta process has continued with additional, updated postings in the Tech Support forum.

Michael's note is simply advising people that more recent versions of the Beta have been posted in Tech Support that contain even more bug fixes. He is not implying that there have been bugs found that were introduced in the Beta. There are simply more and more bugs fixed in each Beta he releases. He also wasn't asking for Matrix to post a new public build, he was just telling people that until Matrix does so they can find the latest build in Tech Support.

Of course it is possible for a bug to be created in a new version (whether Beta or a full-blown official release), but that is not what he is talking about. I and many others who are using the Betas can tell you that there are many dozens - possibly a couple of hundred - fewer bugs in the latest Beta than there are in the latest official full-blown release. Michael keeps an actual list of the fixes and enhancements in the first post of the Beta thread and that same list is included as a PDF in the Beta download.

There is no reason for you to use the Betas unless you want to. But there is nothing to be afraid of either.

(in reply to Knyvet)

Post #: 22

RE: Group reserve - does anyone actually use this? - 1/22/2012 1:48:13 PM

AirGriff

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I like Group Reserve, though I admit I don't often use it. I'll put some marginal pilots (low 50's exp) in a squadron and give them milk runs while giving the vets a day off. The tough missions I reverse it, but you can get these marginal pilots up to a proper experience level quickly doing this. I find I have less need of it now that I'm deeper in the game, but the early days I found it worked well.

_____________________________

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Post #: 23

RE: Group reserve - does anyone actually use this? - 1/22/2012 4:23:17 PM

rader

Posts: 910
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quote:

ORIGINAL: AirGriff

I like Group Reserve, though I admit I don't often use it. I'll put some marginal pilots (low 50's exp) in a squadron and give them milk runs while giving the vets a day off. The tough missions I reverse it, but you can get these marginal pilots up to a proper experience level quickly doing this. I find I have less need of it now that I'm deeper in the game, but the early days I found it worked well.

I think it does hav ethe potential to be useful for stuff like this (and I think this is what it is intended for). I guess my problem with it is that while this sounds like a good idea, in practice this kind of thing goes past my micromanagement threshold when you have to deal with tens of airgroups each turn in a late war game. But it is clearely both a matter of opinion and play style. Seems the concept of group reserve has more support than I had though

(in reply to AirGriff)

Post #: 24

RE: Group reserve - does anyone actually use this? - 1/17/2013 4:32:11 PM

adsoul64

Posts: 179
Joined: 1/23/2012
From: Milan Italy
Status: offline

If I got it correctly, training groups have been removed. So what Tracomm is for? Second question: flagging an air group as trained in the Editor is now meaningless?

(in reply to rader)

Post #: 25

RE: Group reserve - does anyone actually use this? - 1/17/2013 5:39:35 PM

LoBaron

Posts: 3841
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dan Nichols

It can be useful if you want to use it. If I want to transfer a bunch of pilots from a training unit to a front line unit I can put them in group reserve and then sort the vets by unit and find the ones I want very easy.

Ditto - this is a very useful technique. From a training squadron direct to a squadron that has just arrived and is preparing to deploy.

This.

_____________________________

S**t happens in war.

All hail the superior ones!

(in reply to witpqs)

Post #: 26

RE: Group reserve - does anyone actually use this? - 1/17/2013 10:53:08 PM

LoBaron

Posts: 3841
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From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: adsoul64

If I got it correctly, training groups have been removed. So what Tracomm is for? Second question: flagging an air group as trained in the Editor is now meaningless?

TRACOM accellerates off map training, not on map training. So lack of training groups does not impact TRACOM function.

I am no expert on the editor, though my first thought was that setting it to "trained" could also mean CV trained, if this is true it has nothing to do with conventional skill training.

_____________________________

S**t happens in war.

All hail the superior ones!

(in reply to adsoul64)

Post #: 27

RE: Group reserve - does anyone actually use this? - 1/18/2013 12:28:34 AM

Cap Mandrake

Posts: 14034
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From: Southern California
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rader

quote:

ORIGINAL: AirGriff

I like Group Reserve, though I admit I don't often use it. I'll put some marginal pilots (low 50's exp) in a squadron and give them milk runs while giving the vets a day off. The tough missions I reverse it, but you can get these marginal pilots up to a proper experience level quickly doing this. I find I have less need of it now that I'm deeper in the game, but the early days I found it worked well.

I think it does hav ethe potential to be useful for stuff like this (and I think this is what it is intended for). I guess my problem with it is that while this sounds like a good idea, in practice this kind of thing goes past my micromanagement threshold when you have to deal with tens of airgroups each turn in a late war game. But it is clearely both a matter of opinion and play style. Seems the concept of group reserve has more support than I had though

I think that sums it up. It can be useful in the early war when the Allied player has severe air group limitations. A few times I have used it to fly only the elite pilots of a squadron on a make or break battle. I have also used it with medium bomber groups (B-25 and Beauforts) to be able to toggle between naval attack and ground attack....you bring in 8-12 of your naval attack stars and ground the ground pounders when you have a crucial anti-shipping attack.

As the air resources increase it is much easier to just let the entire squadron be "specialized" and leave them on the same setting for months at a time.

(in reply to rader)

Post #: 28

RE: Group reserve - does anyone actually use this? - 1/18/2013 3:32:08 AM

Numdydar

Posts: 640
Joined: 2/13/2004
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My PBEM partner and I always use the beta and think they are awesome. Like someone else said, once you start using them you really cannot go back

Of course you have to careful when you upgrade lol. I upgrade my game first since I am Japan (6/44 now). By the time I finiashed my turn and my friend upgraded, Michael had posted a new version the same day

. Imagine my surprise when I went to load the Allies turn and the pop said it was a different version from my game lol.

But I went ahead and upgrade my game anyway, and everything is working fine. I think the CAP system is much better now imho than before for both sides. For that alone it is worth upgrading

As far as I am concerned, upgrading is easy, and the game is vastly improved. If that is not something you thing is worth doing, that is fine. But you should remember is that you can make a complete copy of the AE folder, instal the betas, run some turns, and if you do not like it you still have the original copy to go back to. So there really is no risk involved in using the Betas other than having to back up a few turns if you do not like the changes.

< Message edited by Numdydar -- 1/18/2013 3:33:02 AM >

(in reply to Cap Mandrake)

Post #: 29

RE: Group reserve - does anyone actually use this? - 1/18/2013 12:31:08 PM

adsoul64

Posts: 179
Joined: 1/23/2012
From: Milan Italy
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron
TRACOM accellerates off map training, not on map training. So lack of training groups does not impact TRACOM function.

Of course, thanks!

quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron
I am no expert on the editor, though my first thought was that setting it to "trained" could also mean CV trained, if this is true it has nothing to do with conventional skill training.

I don�t think so, there are two checkboxes labeled �CV Trained� and �Trainer�. My guess is the second one is not used.

(in reply to LoBaron)

Post #: 30

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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> Group reserve - does anyone actually use this?

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