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RE: Bismarck - Why does it matter?

 
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RE: Bismarck - Why does it matter? - 1/21/2012 10:44:27 PM   
Red Prince


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

Thank you all for helping me understand this matter.

I do however feel that this has moved somewhat beyond my original question. Or, perhaps, I did not fully understand what I asked. Anyway. I am grateful for all the information you have provided but lets close this subject for now and lets focus on our favorite game.

I have to agree with Orm. This has been an interesting discussion -- I particularly liked the association brian brian made between real life events and MWiF -- but it does seem to be moving off the original topic, which is the Bismark and not politics.

I understand how honour could be involved in a discussion of the Bismark, but let's leave the politicians and their honour (or lack thereof) to another OT thread, shall we?

Thanks.

-Aaron

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RE: Bismarck - Why does it matter? - 1/21/2012 10:49:45 PM   
JeffK


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I believe that finding and sinking the Bismark was a major fillip to the British peoples. Therefore British coverage emphasises the overwhelming force they managed to get in place and totally devastate the Bismark. In May 1941, the Brits needed all the good news they could get. (Would Churchill have been out on his ear if Bismark got away without damage?)

Therefore the Third Reich did all it could to soften the morale boost, and soften the blow to its own morale, by maximising the emphasis on the attempts by its crew to scuttle the ship.


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Post #: 32
RE: Bismarck - Why does it matter? - 1/21/2012 10:59:01 PM   
brian brian

 

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For any non-Americans reading along, I would suggest checking out Johnny Horton's 1950s classic hit "Sink the Bismarck" on some music site if you've never heard it. "She had guns as big as houses / and shells as big as steers". Would make a hysterical easter egg if things like copyright weren't involved.

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Post #: 33
RE: Bismarck - Why does it matter? - 1/22/2012 1:00:16 AM   
JeffK


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quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

For any non-Americans reading along, I would suggest checking out Johnny Horton's 1950s classic hit "Sink the Bismarck" on some music site if you've never heard it. "She had guns as big as houses / and shells as big as steers". Would make a hysterical easter egg if things like copyright weren't involved.

Goes into the same box as U571, Pearl Harbor and much of the tripe that Hollywood puts out.

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Post #: 34
RE: Bismarck - Why does it matter? - 1/22/2012 7:56:20 AM   
paulderynck


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quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

For any non-Americans reading along, I would suggest checking out Johnny Horton's 1950s classic hit "Sink the Bismarck" on some music site if you've never heard it. "She had guns as big as houses / and shells as big as steers". Would make a hysterical easter egg if things like copyright weren't involved.

So hit the decks a'runnin, boys and spin those guns around, etc.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KecIdlEAKhU

pretty good memories pour moi

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Post #: 35
RE: Bismarck - Why does it matter? - 1/22/2012 1:14:48 PM   
Centuur


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Never heard this song before. Thanks for putting it in here. Nice pictures, too...

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Post #: 36
RE: Bismarck - Why does it matter? - 1/22/2012 5:26:10 PM   
SLAAKMAN


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quote:

Anyway. I am grateful for all the information you have provided but lets close this subject for now and lets focus on our favorite game.

Excellent point sir. And WiF definately is my favorite game.

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Post #: 37
RE: Bismarck - Why does it matter? - 3/2/2012 12:58:51 AM   
AdurianJ

 

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Well since the German crew wouldn't have gotten the idea to scuttle the Bismark in Wilhelmshaven it's irrelevant.
The British would have sunk the Bismark anyway or it might just have sunk more slowly.

It's sort of like shooting yourself as an atom bomb explodes, you're way past the point where you are the master of your own destiny.

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Post #: 38
RE: Bismarck - Why does it matter? - 3/2/2012 2:40:21 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AdurianJ

Well since the German crew wouldn't have gotten the idea to scuttle the Bismark in Wilhelmshaven it's irrelevant.
The British would have sunk the Bismark anyway or it might just have sunk more slowly.

It's sort of like shooting yourself as an atom bomb explodes, you're way past the point where you are the master of your own destiny.

Welcome to the forum.

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Post #: 39
RE: Bismarck - Why does it matter? - 3/3/2012 5:10:11 PM   
Joe D.


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rkr1958

Sorry for butting in but for some reason the distinction between a warship being "sunk" or "scuttled due to enemy action" is a distinction that I personally never thought mattered ...


It matters in Grigsby's Pacific games; you don't lose as many points if you can scuttle your own derelict ships.

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Post #: 40
RE: Bismarck - Why does it matter? - 3/3/2012 5:11:42 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe D.

quote:

ORIGINAL: rkr1958

Sorry for butting in but for some reason the distinction between a warship being "sunk" or "scuttled due to enemy action" is a distinction that I personally never thought mattered ...


It matters in Grigsby's Pacific games; you don't lose as many points if you can scuttle your own derelict ships.
Warspite1



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Post #: 41
RE: Bismarck - Why does it matter? - 3/8/2012 6:56:41 PM   
critter


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rkr1958

Sorry for butting in but for some reason the distinction between a warship being "sunk" or "scuttled due to enemy action" is a distinction that I personally never thought mattered.  A warship was lost and that's good if it's your enemy and bad if it's one of yours.  If I remember correctly the US carrier Lexington lost at the Battle of the Coral Sea and the Yorktown lost at the Battle of Midway were both finished off by US destroyer safter it became obvious that it couldn't be saved.  And if I remember my facts correctly weren't 1 or even all 4 of the Japaneses carriers lost at the Battle of Midway finished off by Japaneses destroyers?  Does it really matter.  They're lost and lost due to the enemy.

The same with the Bismark.  It was lost due to actions from the RN.  Personally, I view the first and last voyage of the Bismark as folly and if not for an unfortunate and lucky salvo against the Hood it's history would probably have been that of it's sister ship the Tarpitz.



Very well put.. Ship is floating under flag. VS Ship is sitting on the bottom sunk.
The deciding factor was the British navy. The Germans can crow all they want about how "they" sank their own ship. Just so they remember to add, "Oh yeah thanks to the Royal navy she was defenseless and a burning wreck before we "had" to do it."

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Post #: 42
RE: Bismarck - Why does it matter? - 3/10/2012 10:34:20 AM   
Rasputitsa


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However impressive the 'Bismarck' may have looked, she was built using some of the design concepts from WW1 as these plans were brought out to speed the building process. The main armoured deck was set quite low, which ensured that the lower decks were protected, especially from the close range flat trajectory shots 'KG5' and 'Rodney' were delivering near the end of the battle, but it did mean that some communication and electrical systems were not adequately protected. The upper decks could be pulverised, whilst lower decks and flotation were better protected.

In common with German practice in both world wars, major vessels (with the exception of the 'pocket battleships', with a commerce raiding capability) were designed for specific missions, rather than worldwide naval service. RN ships were designed for long cruising in conditions from the Artic to the Tropics, with consequently large crew spaces. German ships, with crews mainly based ashore, until a mission was launched, could have greater sub-division into smaller internal spaces, greatly improving flotation after damage.

German warship design showed an amazing ability to absorb considerable damage and remain afloat, as demonstrated by 'Seydlitz' after Jutland, but this is of little value in the open ocean, where help is not near at hand.

'Bismarck' was no super ship and suffered from all the vulnerabilities which afflicted battleships in WW2 (as with 'Prince of Wales' and 'Yamato'), the main point being that she was quickly disabled and unable to effectively fight back.

Sinking, or not, a ship unable to function is 40,000 tons of scrap iron.

< Message edited by Rasputitsa -- 3/10/2012 2:49:54 PM >


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Post #: 43
RE: Bismarck - Why does it matter? - 3/10/2012 12:22:40 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rasputitsa

Sinking, or not, a ship unable to function is 40,0000 tons of scrap iron.
Warspite1

Wow, 400000 tons - she was bigger than I thought! Thats a lot of scrap iron


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Post #: 44
RE: Bismarck - Why does it matter? - 3/10/2012 2:52:09 PM   
Rasputitsa


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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rasputitsa
Sinking, or not, a ship unable to function is 40,0000 tons of scrap iron.
Warspite1
Wow, 400000 tons - she was bigger than I thought! Thats a lot of scrap iron


Ooops ! hits edit button, retires at high speed making smoke.


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Post #: 45
RE: Bismarck - Why does it matter? - 3/16/2012 3:06:02 PM   
Edfactor


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It seems that the Germans are strangely taking pride in saying they werent sunk. Which as I said seems strange to me, I would rather say "I was sunk" then "I got beat up so bad I had to ignominiously blow myslef up"

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Post #: 46
RE: Bismarck - Why does it matter? - 3/17/2012 8:38:40 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tolstoy

However my primary complaint is that the Royal Navy allowed the majority of Bismarcks sailors to drown on the rumor of a U-Boot sighting. That was unforgivable and I consider it to be an another Allied atrocity.
Warspite1

However my primary complaint is that you are a troll.



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Post #: 47
RE: Bismarck - Why does it matter? - 3/17/2012 10:56:09 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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Can we please put an end to this topic?

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Post #: 48
RE: Bismarck - Why does it matter? - 3/17/2012 11:21:59 PM   
Prince of Eckmühl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Can we please put an end to this topic?

Shannon, could you please check the WAN IP addresses of the folks who have posted to this thread? I ask because it would appear that at least one of the participants is posting under more than one account/username. If your forum UI doesn't allow you to do so, an admin's almost certainly will. So long as members are allowed to use sock-puppets on the forums, you're going to have flare-ups like this.

Thanks.

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RE: Bismarck - Why does it matter? - 3/18/2012 1:59:05 AM   
Orm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Can we please put an end to this topic?

I previously talked with a moderator if it was time to lock this thread. That time had not yet arrived but I think it is time now. Most views on this topic has been posted already. Time to close it and move on. Could you lock it Steve?

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Post #: 50
RE: Bismarck - Why does it matter? - 3/18/2012 3:23:14 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm


quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Can we please put an end to this topic?

I previously talked with a moderator if it was time to lock this thread. That time had not yet arrived but I think it is time now. Most views on this topic has been posted already. Time to close it and move on. Could you lock it Steve?

Done.

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Post #: 51
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